SWA letters of "Thanks but no thanks, see ya next year.

[Skyboy722]

NEDude,
You beat me to it. Very well said.

 

[miles otoole]

It is a shame that HR departments are now running the show when it comes to absolute hiring decisions. It used to be they provided general guidelines on hiring-now it's a science as there are college majors and entire career paths in HR. To many of them, finding the "right fit" supercedes whether or not a person is a current scab.

Nice to know there are EAL scabs being hired at WN while generally "great guys" are shown the door. Much of what an HR type is concerned with is the wealth of experience someone brings to the table, not how he was able to secure it. I wonder if it ever crossed anyone's mind in the PD why some dude changed his last name(maybe starts with "Pat...."?) Maybe they thought he took his husbands name.

 

[amfteamster]

I know have last three people who have bought their "type" just to push their resume further up the interview, get that interview and regretfully did not prevail.

Pat yourselves on the back SWA interviewers. The process worked flawlessly with at least two of those guys.

 

[G100driver]

G100,

Hazing? Please explain. CR

This was a metphore. It is hard to change what other people have experienced. Therefore in their minds this was/is correct. Not at all unlike the expirences many people had as pledges in franternities or as plebs in the Academy's.

Obviously SWA is great place. I have several good friends there who I know are great guys. I think the differnce between the whole SWA 737 type and paying for your ratings (PVT, COM, ect) is that I cannot do a whole lot with a 737 type. Not many people are too interested in a guy with a type and zero time. It could be argued that some outfits shy away from guys that have 737 type as they fear training you and have you leave. When you have your ATP you become employable to many outfits that are willing to train you in their aircraft.

The 737 type, while much cheaper than many type ratings, is still a $6000 gamble. I am sure there are many people out their going further into debt to pursue there dream at a now 20% chance of getting hired at SWA. An FE written last time I checked was about the cost of going out to dinner.

 

[G100driver]

With respect to PFT, you are correct. SWA is not a PFT outfit in the true definition of the word.

Last time we hired however, we hired the person 1st, type ratings second. Find the right person, train him. Airplanes are expensive, put training into the budget. If you are a for profit entity, then charge what it cost to provide a product. Do not ask your empoyees to cover the cost of business.

If I interviewed people and told them that they would have to write a check to FSI to get the job I would be called every name in the book. SWA does it, and they are called geniouses????

Heck, we even pay more for the first 15 years!!!!!!

BTW, please do not take this as me trying to start an online brawl.

 

[OffHot]

Miles who in the People Dept at SWA hires pilots? Last I looked it was our DB, consisting of Pilots who did the hiring. At SWA you meet and interview with 1 HR person. Matter of fact when I interviewed, the non-pilot wasn't even an HR person. Everyone else is a pilot. Our modified interview procedures, to include the LOI, was developed by a pilot. The PD are the administrators of the process, they do not have a vote.

 

[capt. megadeth]

I think a majority of the pilot group is fine with the requirement for employment.

CR

Sure it's "fine" if you get hired. 2nd year pay pays for the type.


By the way, my moocher comments were in no way shape or form anti-military, they were anti-crack head 24 year old able bodied baby machine getting a welfare check every month.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

You don't have to BUY a Boeing 737 type-rating.

You could go get a job with another airline that flies the 737, earn a type-rating the ol' fashioned way, and then fly the airplane for a few thousand hours.

If that was a requirement for hiring at SWA -- i'd agree. It would NOT, then be PFT.

However ... Southwest allows people to go spend their money to purchase a qualification - intial training - that is traditionally paid for by the employer.

Southwest will not hire (and most likely will not interview) a pilot who does NOT have that qualification. That sounds like PFT to me - at least for the folks who pay for the type.

So - to me - if SWA said, "hey guys, in order to interview here you need a 737 type and 1000 hrs in type." i'd say that would be just fine. (how many people, after all, would go buy 1000 hrs in a 737?)

Really dont have a dog in this hunt. Not applying at SWA any time in the near future. Just thought it would be fun to interject yet another opinion to the flightinfo fray. (you know what they say about opinions..)

 

[Yank McCobb]

Honestly, who cares? The pilots currently working at SWA don't care. The management at SWA doesn't care. The thousands and thousands of prospective pilots and applicants at SWA don't care.

It seems the only ones who DO care are those who claim they aren't interested in applying (so again, who cares) or those who have been turned down and feel somehow unjustly treated.

So, if you are so against SWA's policies and interview process, don't apply. No one will care.

 

[MarylandONE]

The SWA interview process is begining to feel and look like UAL's back in the heyday...

We don't hire women just because they are a women. We hire good people and pilots.

 

[MarylandONE]

With respect to PFT, you are correct. SWA is not a PFT outfit in the true definition of the word.

Last time we hired however, we hired the person 1st, type ratings second. Find the right person, train him. Airplanes are expensive, put training into the budget. If you are a for profit entity, then charge what it cost to provide a product. Do not ask your empoyees to cover the cost of business.

If I interviewed people and told them that they would have to write a check to FSI to get the job I would be called every name in the book. SWA does it, and they are called geniouses????

Heck, we even pay more for the first 15 years!!!!!!

BTW, please do not take this as me trying to start an online brawl.

How bad do you want the job? That's what they are tying to find out. Will you go get a type, however you achieve it? (ie. pay, get a job with another 737 carrier, etc.)

That's the question. How bad do you want the job? If you are going to contimplate the "cost" of getting one then you aren't the person we want. Simple as that.

 

[MarylandONE]

Can some of you SWA=PFT folks please explain it to me.

PFT at least used to be, when the term originated, meant having to pay your employer for the cost of your initial new-hire training and you received no rating or certificate for it. As far as I know, nobody is paying SWA (and many aren't paying anyone at all) for the type, nobody is paying for their own new-hire training, and everyone is getting an FAA issued rating.

IF SWA is PFT for requiring a type, then FedEx and UPS are PFT for requiring you to pay for your FE written. Just because the cost of the FE written is less than the 737 type doesn't make it any different - at what dollar amount does the cutoff occur? And it is a VERY thin line from there to every airline being a PFT operation for requiring certain certificates.

The term PFT is being thrown about these days the same as the term scab. If you don't like someone in aviation these days, they're a scab. If you don't like an airlines hiring practice, they are a PFT outfit. The terms are not being used in their real context.

If you don't like the fact that SWA requires a 737 type for employment that is fine, don't apply there. But don't use a term that means one thing and apply it to something different.

Very well said, again.


Seems the people crying about it didn't get the job. The process worked well then.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

If you are going to contimplate the "cost" of getting one then you aren't the person we want. Simple as that.


Sure. Its obvious that the kind of person that Southwest is looking for is the kind that is willing to go out and risk their family's financial security by purchasing (or god-forbid buying on credit) a $6000.00 lottery ticket.

Come on...

 

[:-)]

The key to the mystery is here folks, don't drop the ball

Miles who in the People Dept at SWA hires pilots? Last I looked it was our DB, consisting of Pilots who did the hiring. At SWA you meet and interview with 1 HR person. Matter of fact when I interviewed, the non-pilot wasn't even an HR person. Everyone else is a pilot. Our modified interview procedures, to include the LOI, was developed by a pilot. The PD are the administrators of the process, they do not have a vote.

OffHot, your quoted post could lead to a breakthru. If you are able, please expound upon this "Our modified interview procedures, to include the LOI, was developed by a pilot.".

Are you telling me that a pilot decided upon the TMAAT format and wrote the questions?

If so, was/is that pilot either a psychologist or a psychiatrist?

Why did that pilot choose aviation subjects (I admit to having slightly old info, please fell free to correct me and state the nature of the current question bank) instead of general TMAAT questions?

Are the interviewers properly trained mental health professionals?
Even more to the point, can the TMAAT/personality type/behavioral interview be adeqautely administered by anyone less than a trained mental health professional?
If not, how are the SWA pilot interviewers actually trained?

Is the interviewer allowed to make whatever comment she/he chooses on the eval form, or do they have to follow the format of the "system"? That is, can the interviewer skip the S/A/R form and just write his evaluation of the applicants personality type?
Who wrote the eval form?

Please explain this, "The PD are the administrators of the process".
Does this mean that they present all of the applicants to the DB?, or do they have the ability to eliminate some applicants before their package reaches the DB?
Is they can eliminate applicants before the DB, then they must have more than an administrative role in the process. If they can't eliminate someone i.e., if they present all interviewees to the DB, then what does the PD actually accomplish?

I'm not trying to demean anyone in the PD, I only wish that my employer had a PD instead of an HR department, I'm just trying to get a handle on the system.

On a personal note to an undisclosed member, I'm trying here to avoid disparaging the system. Let me know if I succeeded. Also, sorry, I just couldn't resist one more discussion before I go.

Spaceman Spiff

 

[:-)]

Honestly, who cares? The pilots currently working at SWA don't care. .......................... No one will care.

Not exactly true Mr. McCobb. At least four of your brothers care. I would have given up last year were it not for old friends asking to keep trying because the company needs to hire more people who resemble the old school hirees instead of the UA/AA/DL/CO/NW clones that they see as of late.

Even you care, otherwise you'd not have replied.

Calvin

 

[Widow's Son]

>>Sure. Its obvious that the kind of person that Southwest is looking for is the kind that is willing to go out and risk their family's financial security by purchasing (or god-forbid buying on credit) a $6000.00 lottery ticket<<

No, What SWA is looking for is someone who sees value in investing in themselves and their career.
When former collegues would ask me if they should get a type I would ask them this. If you get the type and don't get hired at SWA would you view the type experience as a total waste of money? If they answered yes I would tell them not to bother.
Alternatively, if they see themselves as the type of professional pilot who views learning new things and adding new qualifications to their resume as an investment in themselves and therefore of value regardless of getting hired at SWA, then I encouraged them to go for it. That entrepenural spirit is what SWA looks for because a lot of their compensation programs are variable which means lower guarantees in exchange for higher potential rewards. For me, (and I did it when you still had to fly the airplane so it was 10K) it has paid off in spades many times over, easily to the tune of a couple of million dollars or more over the course of my career.

 

[Yank McCobb]

Not exactly true Mr. McCobb. At least four of your brothers care. I would have given up last year were it not for old friends asking to keep trying because the company needs to hire more people who resemble the old school hirees instead of the UA/AA/DL/CO/NW clones that they see as of late.

Even you care, otherwise you'd not have replied.

Calvin

Calvin,

I believe you misunderstood about the "no one cares" part. I meant "no one cares" about the process or the type requirement except those who have stated they do not intend to apply or those who feel they were unjustly treated by being turned down.

Sure, plenty of people at SWA care about many things. Our fellow and prospective future pilots are at the top of the list. But when it comes to this "issue" (and it seems to only be an "issue" to those who don't want to be here anyway), it really isn't an "issue" at all. That's what I mean by "no one cares".

I would hope we continue to look for those "old school" types. The kind we have always looked for. No clones here.

 

[MarylandONE]

If you are going to contimplate the "cost" of getting one then you aren't the person we want. Simple as that.


Sure. Its obvious that the kind of person that Southwest is looking for is the kind that is willing to go out and risk their family's financial security by purchasing (or god-forbid buying on credit) a $6000.00 lottery ticket.

Come on...

I put cost in quotes because it isn't about money. If you don't want to pay then get a job flying 737s to achieve that goal. What is the cost of you doing that? Leaving a secure "regional" perhaps for a risky position with a start-up. How about a 737 job abroad? Again, how bad do you want the job? Apparently you don't want it that bad. That's why we hire the best. The best encompasses a lot of adjectives and you clearly don't get it.

Good luck elsewhere.

 

[MarylandONE]

What is truly amazing is how many people have the "legacy" carrier mentality. "I deserve because I put my time in." "Give me...Give me...Give me..."

You want to achieve a goal like working at SWA as a pilot then go out and achieve it. The bar is set but you think you deserve an interview because why? You spent countless hours in a J-31 or a 747. You deserve nothing. You achieve because you desire and work toward it.

Thank God for our PD for weeding out the uninspired.

 

[SWAnnabee]

I recently got a PM from a friend at SWA that was pretty danging. I want to take this opportunity, in case my opinion was misinterpreted, to set the record straight regarding my posts about the WA and hiring process.

I may not completely agree with SWA on the WA or on its hiring trends lately but, that being said, still think that SWA is, as far as airlines;
the most stable business model
the most worker friendly management team
the most competent management team
the best providers of service to passengers
has the best regard for its customers and workers alike
the best all around US airling today.

Yes I interviewed and yes I got the letter. No hard feelings and I went on to greener pastures.

BUT.....I have an opinion. We in this country are entitled to that. These boards are an opportunity to express those opinions. To slam someone for a differing opinion is wrong. Sure you can disagree.....but to attempt to intimidate, ridicule, or berate someone for a DIFFERENT opinion is off base.

I make a POINT to praise SWA for its good points and never slam the company, I just disagree with a couple of issues. Otherwise, I think I have been fair, honest, and COURTEOUS. If I have not been, please point it out to me POLITELY and I will freely extend my apology. I have been known to be wrong before on these boards before and I have also ADMITTED it openly. But the PM I just got was disturbing considering my open and honest expression of a personal opinion on a couple of issues.

AGAIN.....good luck to SWA and all friends there. Keep doing a good job and this airline will remain strong.

Boz