SWA goes after RJs again

[BILL LUMBERG]

It's tough shouldering that responsibility on your own while the rest of the industry is in the tank. But, YOU'RE WELCOME for keeping the bar UP for the last umpteen years.

Wow! That's like the anchor looking up at the ship saying...Glad I kept you grounded during the storm!

 

[Roomwithaview]

You stay classy PCL

Wow, you're an idiot. Newsflash: your rates still haven't come close to Delta's rates from a contract inked 13 years ago, dumbass.

I don't know what the F*ck you're talking about. But I certainly remember us negotiating a ILC while DALPA was overseeing a concessionary one. Nice touch with name calling though. It kind of punctuates your lack of ability to discuss this issue factually.

I started a thread to point out the CURRENT shortcomings in our contract. Why? Because you need to make hay while the sun is shining. And, who knows how long this current growth spurt will last. I've been in this biz for over 30 years. Care to guess how many BKs I've witnessed AND suffered through?

If I was concerned with the usual FLIFO "d*ck measuring" I wouldn't be pointing that out.

No wonder you and GLEE so closely relate to each other. Pretty much the same path all the FLIFO thought leaders head down whenever they're getting their a$$es handed to them and they have no where else to run but an emotional rant.

You ladies should be spending more time trying to bring us all up instead of being concerned with who has the hottest wife. But then again, isolationism is what got you to where you all are regarding RJs, SCOPE, and CODESHARE.

 

[Roomwithaview]

Wow! That's like the anchor looking up at the ship saying...Glad I kept you grounded during the storm!

Maybe so. Quite possibly not a bad analogy. There's a helluva lot of old dirty anchors that survived many a shipwreck. Consider that next time you're out front of a maritime museum.

 

[PCL_128]

I don't know what the F*ck you're talking about.

Clearly. You might want to go back and look at what DAL Contract '01 looked like, then look at your current contract, and then decide whether its really appropriate for you to be such a smartass about "holding up the bar."

 

[Roomwithaview]

Clearly. You might want to go back and look at what DAL Contract '01 looked like, then look at your current contract, and then decide whether its really appropriate for you to be such a smartass about "holding up the bar."

Yeah, 01 was awesome. Until the BK. Swing and a miss.

Here's some light reading for you.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/14/news/fortune500/delta/
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/05/business/delta-and-pilots-start-talks-on-concessions.html
http://www.law360.com/articles/6807/delta-reaches-concession-deal-with-pilots

Once again-Bill. Thanks for being profitable, again. And, thanks for making the negotiating environment a hell of a lot less hostile than the previous ten years.

 

[PCL_128]

Yeah, who woulda thunk that Delta might have to file for bankruptcy when their competitors like SWA were getting away with keeping costs down by doing things like paying pilots 50% less. What a shocker!

 

[Roomwithaview]

Yeah, who woulda thunk that Delta might have to file for bankruptcy when their competitors like SWA were getting away with keeping costs down by doing things like paying pilots 50% less. What a shocker!

Now you're just talking out your a$$.

Good lord-Man. Bring something to the table other than nonsensical unsubstantiated, school girl rants.

The irony of all this is the fact that it's coming from a VALUETranny whose company and pilot contracts did more to harm the pilot compensation equation than ANY RSWA contract.

Keep it up though. You're fun to watch.

 

[PCL_128]

Unsubstantiated? It's all in black and white in the contracts. Your CBA was atrocious pre-2005. (And yes, AirTran's was atrocious pre-2010)

 

[Roomwithaview]

Unsubstantiated? It's all in black and white in the contracts. Your CBA was atrocious pre-2005. (And yes, AirTran's was atrocious pre-2010)

Your damn right it's all there in black and white. Take a gander at some of the $hit we were up against.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/2466441/

Like I said. Recognize the pluses and the minuses and work towards obtaining better pay and bennies for all. But that doesn't matter to you because you're punching out to be a full time Industry research expert-Right?

 

[PCL_128]

A link to the Airliners.net forum? Awesome. Just pure awesome.

And I may be punching out of the industry, but I'll be sure to stick around here and tell you corndogs why you're always wrong.

 

[Roomwithaview]

A link to the Airliners.net forum? Awesome. Just pure awesome.

And I may be punching out of the industry, but I'll be sure to stick around here and tell you corndogs why you're always wrong.

The rates are accurate.
The trend of the industry is accurate.
The hostile anti-pilot pay environment is accurate.

Feel free to pull up everyone's 2005 contracts. DALPA was in the process of negotiating a SECOND pay concession as well as benefit concessions, AND a HUGE RJ codeshare giveaway.

But feel free to keep ranting. Like I said, you're fun to watch. Make sure to use big words like "dumba$$" and "idiot". It will be good practice for your Industry research presentations.

 

[PCL_128]

Of course the rates are accurate. That thread is from the same year I already said that your rates starting getting up to more reasonable levels! Go back and look at 2001, hot shot. You were so far behind you weren't even in the same league.

 

[tankerhead]

I'm all for it. It is upgauging on all fronts. Delta is replacing some of their flying with actual Delta employees flying actual Delta aircraft for a change. That creates an upward flow from regionals to mainline.

Also on the upside SWA is upguauging 88 airframes from 117 seat narrow bodies to either 143 or 175 seat narrow bodies. SWA is gaining near 4000 revenue seats when the 1 for 1 transition is complete all while saving $200 million a year by doing so.

There seem to be very few win/win situations in this industry, but this truly seems to be one of them.

I see what you did there.

I think.

But I doubt the Genital got it. She needs her face rubbed in it a little more for it to be effective.

 

[Roomwithaview]

Of course the rates are accurate. That thread is from the same year I already said that your rates starting getting up to more reasonable levels! Go back and look at 2001, hot shot. You were so far behind you weren't even in the same league.

I guess "Hot Shot" is an improvement from "Dumba$$" and "Idiot". Kudos on improving your communication skills.

It's sad that you have to revert back to 2001 to make a lame attempt at supporting your outlandish claim that we were or have ever been 50% less than DAL in the last umpteen years.

I already said that your rates starting getting up to more reasonable levels

Nice back pedal. You and Bill started this whole $hit$torm because you refuse to acknowledge that we (SWA) pilots have been single handedly, on our own, keeping the entirety of the industry up on our shoulders during the biggest concessionary session that I've ever witnessed in my time in the business.

Yes, the UNSUSTAINABLE DAL contract of 2001 was extremely helpful in getting us to where were are. Now let me take YOU through the timeline of what transpired since then.

Oct. 28, 2004

The union's top council approved the tentative five-year contract and gave members until Nov. 11 to vote, the union said in a message. The proposal includes cutting pilots' pay 32.5 percent, freezing the crews' current defined benefit pension plan and replacing it with a defined contribution plan.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2004/oct/28/delta-pilots-deal-helps-avoid-bankruptcy-shares-in/

September 15, 2005

Delta Air Lines files for bankruptcy

The Atlanta-based airline, which has not had a profitable quarter since 2000, filed under Chapter 11 of federal bankruptcy laws.
Delta flirted with a bankruptcy filing in October 2004, before getting the Air Line Pilots Association to agree to cut wages by about a third a move that saved about $1 billion a year. The airline also cut some 5,000 jobs in the year ending in June

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/14/news/fortune500/delta/

June 1, 2006

Delta Pilots Ok Salary Cuts

Delta Air Lines Inc. pilots approved a tentative agreement that retains a 14 percent pay cut and saves the third largest U.S. airline $280 million a year to help it emerge from bankruptcy.

"If they'd taken the step of withholding their services, you may as well just turn off the lights yourself," said Robert Mann, head of R.W. Mann & Co., an airline labor consultant based in Port Washington, N.Y. "I don't think there was any alternative. The terms they got were fairly attractive" compared with other unions' concessions to bankrupt airlines.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...nt-delta-air-lines-delta-s-restructuring-plan

Jan 5, 2007

Delta, PBGC Reach Agreement on Delta Pilots Pension Plan

In December 2006, the company announced it had reached a settlement agreement with the PBGC and that the agreement had the full support of its Official Committee of Unsecured Creditors. The agreement later received approval by the U.S. Bankruptcy Court, which had previously determined that Delta could not reorganize or emerge from Chapter 11 unless the Pilot Plan was terminated.

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=20295&item=122565

That's just Delta. The rest of the industry was much worse.

Like I said before. You're welcome.

Now, enough of the d*ck measuring.

You all should want what we all want. Pay, Benefits and QOL improvements for everyone. We have a different business model than DAL, UAL, AMR, etc and it doesn't mean we're better than them or worse than them. Just different.

 

[canyonblue]

Good lord-Man. Bring something to the table other than nonsensical unsubstantiated, school girl rants.

Don't waste your time, when dealing with PCL always remember.......

"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience"

 

[Roomwithaview]

Trust me.

Don't waste your time, when dealing with PCL always remember.......

"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience"

Class dismissed on that one. He won't be back. Except maybe to make some non-sensical, girlish, three line rant.

 

[PCL_128]

It's sad that you have to revert back to 2001 to make a lame attempt at supporting your outlandish claim that we were or have ever been 50% less than DAL in the last umpteen years.

Time for some reality, hot shot (737 rates, TFP adjusted at 1.15x):

Jan 2001
DAL 12 yr CA: $224/hr
SWA 12 yr CA: $138/hr (38% less)

DAL 6 yr FO: $153/hr
SWA 6 yr FO: $85/hr (51% less)

Jan 2004
DAL 12 yr CA: $245/hr
SWA 12 yr CA: $167/hr (32% less)

DAL 6 yr FO: $167/hr
SWA 6 yr FO: $110/hr (34% less)

It starts to look less embarrassing for you half way through the year when Delta takes their first restructuring hits, but they're still even with you even then. It isn't until the second round of cuts that you finally get out ahead. And today, a decade later, you still haven't matched their pay rates from 2004.

So no, I don't think anyone is thanking you, Tex.

Yes, the UNSUSTAINABLE DAL contract of 2001 was extremely helpful in getting us to where were are. Now let me take YOU through the timeline of what transpired since then.

Unsustainable? Yes, partially thanks to you. Pat yourself on the back for that one.

 

[waveflyer]

In 2000 time frame you have a point-
As stock purchase and options weren't a large part of compensation. But any SWA pilot hired earlier, and you love to ignore this, has done better than any legacy pilot in terms of total compensation.
So maybe we can zip up our drawers again.

The point, as inconvenient as it might be for you PCL, is that Swapa has been holding things up for a decade. We got strong enough to do it, and now have done it. I don't expect virgin america to hold the line with us, or even hawaiian or Alaska to do it even though they've been around as long as anyone.
(Well, Alaska does need to step up now- they've been doing well for a while- when is their contract due)
Whoever is strong holds the line.
Credit where credit is due is certainly not your strong point. If it's SWA, it sucks.

Where's that brevity again?

 

[PCL_128]

Stock options and ESPP are irrelevant to this discussion, because they don't help in the world of pattern bargaining, which is where RWAV wants his pat on the back that he doesn't deserve.

And no, you don't deserve credit for "holding things up," because they fell back to your level in the first place. The legacy carriers were only able to get the support in bankruptcy court for such massive cuts because they could point to SWA, JetBlue, and yes, AirTran, and say that their rates weren't in line with their competition. Own it.

 

[redflyer65]

It's sad that you have to revert back to 2001 to make a lame attempt at supporting your outlandish claim that we were or have ever been 50% less than DAL in the last umpteen years.

Ahhhh. This is the crux of the problem for PCL. He HAS to reach back over 13 years to make an argument. And even that fails.

And yes, the SW guys prior to that retired multi-millions while plenty at DL, UA, NW etc are living off the PBGC at around 40k a year after the ALPA pensions were completely gutted. Re-read that difference folks, because it's stark. That equates to a difference of around 4 times for the SW guys.

PBGC guys getting 40k a year living in a 'starter home', vs.
SW guys having well over 3 million getting 120k/yr on a 4% draw.

Really embarrassing for ALPA.

But yet his still proud of that accomplishment. Absolutely amazing, in a very, very sad way.