SWA / Frontier Deal Off For Now!

[Richard Gozinya]

I was just about to post that one about the FOREVER in Denver domicile.............NFW!

Wow, like I said, enjoy Republic!

Dick

 

[RedDogC130]

WRITTEN BY SOMEONE OTHER THAN ME ON OUR OTHER FORUM....RD

Don't dismiss the precedent of what happened to the Former Muse/Transtar
pilots. They (their ALPA MEC) refused to accept a staple to the bottom of the SWA seniority list. The rank and file did not get to vote. The outcome was that SWA operated them as a wholly owned subsidiary for 2 or so years and then put them straight into chapter 7 for liquidation, bypassing chapter 11 bankruptcy. Plenty of airlines were happy to take their aircraft without the problem of having to deal with labor integration issues. There was no airline at that point, only aircraft, so there were no employees to deal with. The result was that instead of EVERY Muse/Transtar pilot being a Captain at SWA by 1990, they all went straight to unemployment and got to start over wherever they could get hired. A few did get on at SWA the old fashioned way, they interviewed after getting a 737 type and came on as new hires in 1988 with some 3 years and a huge percentage less seniority than they would have had.
SWA could do what GK has said, which is operate Frontier as a separate entity for 2 years and then "gradually draw it down as 737's replace the Airbus". Lynx could be operated separately as well and retained indefinitely. It already seems that their pilots would be happy to join SWA at the bottom and move up from there.
A problem with this is that F9 pilots would be in 2 camps. One that is unhappy with their situation and could be disruptive. The other would be unhappy with the first group and who would have accecpted whatever deal they could have wrangled out of SWA/SWAPA.
Everyone has their own opinion, but this scenario has been acted out in the past and SWA management and SWAPA leadership know it.
In the Muse/Transtar and Morris buyouts I believe it was Herb's position to not automatically hire any of the pilots, but to only offer them preferential interviews. Swapa opposed this as it would have resulted in non-SWAPA pilots flying SWA owned aircraft (Scope issue), for some period of time even it it were to be a matter of months or a year or two.
If anyone has other or more accurate information on this, please correct anything I have posted that is not correct.

 

[terryhfly]

Hold up SWA dudes and take a breath. Where are you getting the info on what FAPA is "Demanding"?

From TOF

All Denver FAPA pilots will be Denver Domicile protected with first dibs on any newly created 737 positions in Denver forever.

They want $3000/month + health benefits for for all their furloughees with no time limit

Yep. Time to kill this one.
Well..bye!!

I will bet my house that this was not brought up during the talks! F9 is not demanding anything. They have concerns about things that will affect their pilot group. Captains at F9 are not demanding to be captains at SWA. Everyone needs to read what the unions are putting out and not speculate on third party hearsay.

 

[StaySeated]

It was a negotiation. During a negotiation, each side exchanges modified proposals until an agreement can be made. Understand? There were no take it or leave it demands from fapa.

 

[shagadelic]

From our merger committee on our SWAPA website. We are getting great communication, it's kind of refreshing.

 

[shearedshaft]

I will bet my house that this was not brought up during the talks! F9 is not demanding anything. They have concerns about things that will affect their pilot group. Captains at F9 are not demanding to be captains at SWA. Everyone needs to read what the unions are putting out and not speculate on third party hearsay.

I'll take that bet. How much is your house worth? I'll put up the value in cash. How do we finalize this?

Next point, you claim that this is hearsay and speculation, why don't you put out what your union communications is? Let's hear their side of it. We are certainly (!) hearing more from our side than we have ever before.

So, although it will be rude to take your house at the same time you lose a seniority number at SWAPA, I am willing to be rude, so let me know how to go forward with this bet.

 

[Vegaspilot99]

I just wish I could see what the SWAPA guys are putting out. The mudslinging here isn't the info I want.

 

[vv100]

Hold up SWA dudes and take a breath. Where are you getting the info on what FAPA is "Demanding"?

From TOF

All Denver FAPA pilots will be Denver Domicile protected with first dibs on any newly created 737 positions in Denver forever.

They want $3000/month + health benefits for for all their furloughees with no time limit

Yep. Time to kill this one.
Well..bye!!

I will bet my house that this was not brought up during the talks! F9 is not demanding anything. They have concerns about things that will affect their pilot group. Captains at F9 are not demanding to be captains at SWA. Everyone needs to read what the unions are putting out and not speculate on third party hearsay.

Straight from the M&A committee
So whats FAPA putting out?

 

[HalinTexas]

Nah, if you choose an airline in the beginning and it goes poorly, that was YOUR fault. This isn't Russia where you are assigned an airline. There are good and bad choices everywhere. National Seniority lists don't take your own bad judgement into account. Can you do the same with a wife you don't like after 10 years too? (Not mine, I love you honey-snookems!!)


Bye Bye--General Lee

Wrong! You, as a pilot or pilot group, don't make the decisions that make a business run. DALPA didn't decide to buy NWA. So, it's not labor's credit or fault that a company succeeds or fails.

 

[shearedshaft]

Well, they're not talking to the press. Two solid days of "not available for comment" from your president.

I suspect FAPA is saying the same to the rank and file that they're saying to the press, that is...nothing.

It really would be hysterical if Lynx got their cards in and ended up senior to FAPA.

 

[terryhfly]

Could you please post what your M&A posted or send it to me in a pm so I can ask our guys if it was "Demanded" or a opening wish list?

 

[shearedshaft]

Then do I get your house?

 

[shearedshaft]

Ok, I'll stop.

But dude, you're being led down the primrose path by your union leadership, you are willing to bet your house that they didn't do something that...they...did.

They're trying to get a good position on paper so that when this goes to arbitration, they get a head start.

'Cept this isn't going to arbitration, that is worth betting your house on. They are operating under a flawed assumption and they aren't telling you guys the facts.

If I'm wrong, SWA guys chime in...do you think Gary Kelly wants AWA/USAIR? Anyone? Anyone?

 

[vv100]

Could you please post what your M&A posted or send it to me in a pm so I can ask our guys if it was "Demanded" or a opening wish list?

All Denver FAPA pilots will be Denver Domicile protected with first dibs on any newly created 737 positions in Denver forever.

They want $3000/month + health benefits for for all their furloughees with no time limit

Word for word cut and paste from the M&A

Shaft is right.

 

[MILPILOT17]

Ok, I'll stop.

But dude, you're being led down the primrose path by your union leadership, you are willing to bet your house that they didn't do something that...they...did.

They're trying to get a good position on paper so that when this goes to arbitration, they get a head start.

'Cept this isn't going to arbitration, that is worth betting your house on. They are operating under a flawed assumption and they aren't telling you guys the facts.

If I'm wrong, SWA guys chime in...do you think Gary Kelly wants AWA/USAIR? Anyone? Anyone?

That (AWA/USAIR) would be fun! NOT! That would also be the end of SWA as we know it today; not gonna happen unless they've (Gary/Management) totally lost their minds.

 

[HalinTexas]

Let me start by applauding the F9 group for standing up for the profession. Evidently, SWAPA doesn't respect the profession if it's exercised outside of SWA.

Let's get this straight. SWAPA rejected a TA with a raise because of other non-economic issues like scope, but they're smart. FAPA rejects this "proposal" from SWAPA on similar grounds and they're idiots? Got it.

If SWAPA and/or SWA Mgt. had offered a on or two year job protection provision, do you think that would have made a difference? It's been widely discussed by more than one SWA employee that SWA is fat about 300 pilots, depending on whose numbers you use. There are 5900+ pilots at SWA. There are about 600 at F9 with some on furlough, not including Lynx. F9 is 10% of WN. Well within normal ranges of historical furlough numbers, excluding APA/AMR. Why do you care what they think? F9 is puny. SWA paid $130M for Morris in 1993 for 21 airplanes. I don't know how big SWA was at the time, but it was a BIG purchase. SWA was doubling in size every five years up to that point. A similar upgrade time was assured. I was always told that Herb would never buy another airline, based on his experience with it. My how times change.

Which brings me to the historical SWA corporate culture. SWA was built on an "Us vs. Them" mentality. Read "Nuts" and other books on the subject. Methinks that the "Us" is now the "Them." "They" think that they can dictate to all others what their value is, which is beneath a SWA pilot. AMR, TWA, UAL, DAL, PAA, EAL all were at, or near, the top of the heap. SWA is there now. SWAPA doesn't respect the profession. Therefore the profession is dead. You're pawns in the arrogant fight over "who's number one."

No one can predict the future, especially pilots. Anyone remember UAL circa 2000? Followed by DAL with "UAL +?" Where are they now? DAL had never furloughed before either, and they'd been around longer than SWA. As far as what will happen to F9 with RAH, or anyone else, no one knows. If the pilots of all the airlines under RAH negotiate one list with seat/base/pay protections, then they might just pull something off. I'm horrible at predicting the future, (hence my present position) and I bet all of you are no better or worse.

Good luck or get out.

 

[JetMonkey]

I thought that new federal law prohibits any stapling job, ie AA/TWA from ever happening again??

 

[shearedshaft]

Dude, I know it stings that you didn't get on at SWA after the ATA debacle, but why do you continue to argue a line that would end up withe the exact same thing happening to the six hundred FAPA guys?

They can "hold the line", and "stand up for their rights" and "fight the good fight", they can even "do the right thing", but in the end, if they don't agree to what is being offered, the deal is off...done.

Then they'd end up in the same circumstances as you did, no SWA seniority number.

Why is that a good thing for them again?

 

[HalinTexas]

Dude, I know it stings that you didn't get on at SWA after the ATA debacle, but why do you continue to argue a line that would end up withe the exact same thing happening to the six hundred FAPA guys?

They can "hold the line", and "stand up for their rights" and "fight the good fight", they can even "do the right thing", but in the end, if they don't agree to what is being offered, the deal is off...done.

Then they'd end up in the same circumstances as you did, no SWA seniority number.

Why is that a good thing for them again?

You can't guarantee that a SWA number is good thing either. I know of a guy or two that went to SWA and hated it. Six legs a day and they never went anywhere.

Money isn't everything. I was making a lot at one time. I can still make a lot if I want to got to Asia, Africa or the ME.

 

[instructordude]

I thought that new federal law prohibits any stapling job, ie AA/TWA from ever happening again??

Mcain Feingold and the Mohawk Allegeny acts prohibit this from happening. It's Federal Law, people need to get use to it.