SWA / Frontier Deal Off For Now!

[GuppyWN]

Insert United for Southwest and you get a feeling of the arrogance UAL pilots had in the 80's and 90's. I hope the uniform britches they give you guys come with elastic.

I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it. You can't seriously think it would be better to be hired by RAH than Southwest.

That's all I was saying.
Gup

 

[Quiet Flight]

Newest update from SWAPA M&A Committee. Hit my email about ten mins ago. Just clarified some of the language re the SWAPA offer that was in this morning's statement.

[FONT=Arial Narrow,Arial MT Condensed Light,sans-serif] Frontier transaction status still fluid

[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]SWAPA Pilots,

It has been a whirlwind week for your M&A Committee. We have been in meetings with our M&A counsel in Washington Monday and Tuesday and quickly returned to Dallas on Wednesday for a pressing meeting with FAPA. We would like to bring you up to date on the Frontier transaction.

Weeks ago, the Company approached SWAPA for ideas on how to complete the Frontier transaction with our pilots' support. We expressed our concerns about new federal legislation on the books (McCaskill/Bond) and its potential effect on pilot seniority at Southwest. The Company, at SWAPA's request, included a "labor contingency clause" requiring labor agreements in place prior to the closing of the Frontier acquisition. This action took the possibility of binding arbitration out of play and protected our pilots from a harmful arbitrated seniority integration.

As the Company was developing their formal binding proposal to acquire Frontier out of bankruptcy, Southwest bankruptcy counsel expressed concern that the Southwest bid could be excluded from the auction process because Frontier legal counsel deemed the proposal "not qualified" for the auction process due to the labor contingency clause. However, the labor contingency clause would be deemed acceptable and the bid deemed qualified if SWAPA and FAPA reached an Agreement in Principle for seniority integration. That triggered negotiations Thursday between SWAPA and FAPA.

SWAPA's concerns throughout this process have been to protect our seniority list and our Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA). The only way to adequately protect our entire pilot group was to place the FAPA pilots below the SWAPA pilots on our new Master Seniority List.

FAPA's concerns are:

> Job Protection They WOULD have had this.
> Seat Protection Out of control egos say what?
> Pay Protection Not just protection, but WHOPPING raises.
> Domicile Protection Grandfathered for 3 years not enough?

FAPA's position was for relative seniority with a "variable" for the ratio for integration. Clearly, meeting all of FAPA's concerns would be an enormous windfall for Frontier pilots at the expense of Southwest pilots.

Understanding the need for a quick resolution, SWAPA (in coordination with the Company) offered to pay protect FAPA pilots at SWAPA FO pay rates or higher FAPA non-concessionary book rates adjusted for SWAPA negotiated contract raises and offered grandfather rights for a DEN domicile for three years following transition agreement time period. As of 2230 last night, no agreement had been reached.
This morning, Southwest will be requesting to delay the auction process to solve additional problems in the bid which will allow more time for labor bargaining. Frontier legal counsel will determine whether or not to extend the auction deadline.

We are still in negotiations and the situation is very fluid. We wanted to keep you up to date with the most current information and will provide more information as it becomes available.

[/FONT]I read the part about pay rates to mean not only would F9 guys get pay protected, but this would be done at the NEW TA rates, rumored to be 9% over current rates. Does that sound about right?

 

[ATRCAPT]

I bet there were 550 F9 pilots willing to take that deal and 50 old ass captain refusing to be FOs again with a $50k pay raise not including raise in benefits.

I think you are exactly right. I know several F9 FO's who would GLADLY take a staple, pay raise and stability over whatever sh!t sandwich Republic is going to throw at them.

I hate to see this sort of thing happen to anyone, but SWA is a healthy company and F9 is bankrupt. Economic survival of the fittest. The government and their laws should but the he!! out.

 

[SWA2000]

I think this is a BS post. Looked on SWAPA web site and cannot find anything about it. Also no email alert from SWAPA or the Merger adn Acquisition Committee which has been keeping us in the loop with email alerts and info.....Let's see some proof

It is on the SWAPA website under the forums. Merger/Acquistion has posted some comm updates. Also look under the Frontier forum thread on the SWAPA website. The fact that we haven't heard from GK would mean that they are still trying to negotiate with the judge to allow for extra time to reach some sort of labor agreement.

PS When you find it you need to come back and apologize. You hurt my feelings.

 

[gutshotdraw]

"The hardest thing about playing chicken, is knowing when to flinch."

Captain Bart Mancuso
USS Dallas
Hunt for Red October

 

[WarnerNo13]

You all realize that there are other employees that make an airline run other than pilots right? Have airlines and pilot groups gotten so blinded that they think an earth tilting deal like this should depend solely on what's good for them? Next time you walk by a gate agent, or call a mechanic for help, or contact your dispatcher for a quick fuel burn, or butter up your crew scheduler with some candy, or visit your benefits dept to work on your 401k, think about it for a second that it's not just your life being affected.

What's going on with the mechanics' labor groups? The dispatcher labor groups? What about the flight attendants one being union and the other not? Take in the whole picture.

 

[Cometman]

You all realize that there are other employees that make an airline run other than pilots right? Have airlines and pilot groups gotten so blinded that they think an earth tilting deal like this should depend solely on what's good for them? Next time you walk by a gate agent, or call a mechanic for help, or contact your dispatcher for a quick fuel burn, or butter up your crew scheduler with some candy, or visit your benefits dept to work on your 401k, think about it for a second that it's not just your life being affected.

What's going on with the mechanics' labor groups? The dispatcher labor groups? What about the flight attendants one being union and the other not? Take in the whole picture.

Maybe they have their own site they use. This site is for pilots that is why the only thing you read is about pilots.

 

[WildcatFan]

This is gutwrenching for me watching these guys let this slip through their fingers. No other company would back SWAPA's play like SWA just did. I feel like I am watching someone commit suicide. Dudes - it is great here. I am junior and still love it. We are just asking you to do what all 6000 of us did. No, scratch that we are asking you to do what we did except for a lot more money, guaranteed domicile protection and longetivity pay scale! SWA will not go to arbitration and will not cram this down SWAPA's throats - SWA survival doesnt depend on Denver, and it is cheaper to buy and shut down....you guys are worrying me ...this is moving fast.

 

[PropPiedmont]

I hope the few at Frontier didn't ruin a good thing for the majority over there.

 

[Vegaspilot99]

I hope the few at Frontier didn't ruin a good thing for the majority over there.

Tell me about it...its maddening to watch this play out.

 

[WarnerNo13]

Maybe they have their own site they use. This site is for pilots that is why the only thing you read is about pilots.

I see forums on flightinfo for ATC, Flight Attendants, Dispatchers, Mechanics, etc.

Besides, the point of my post is not whether only pilots can post on here, it's pointing out in the real world that an airline deal should not rest solely on what the pilots want and how their lives would be affected. Obviously from the information coming out WN and F9 seems to be strictly concerned about what the pilot groups have to say and will decide for a few thousand other non-pilots if a deal is made or not. So it really has nothing to do with if other groups have their own forum.

 

[GuppyWN]

Q: How does a pilot change a lightbulb?

A: He holds the bulb and lets the world revolve around him.


Gup

 

[WarnerNo13]

Q: How does a pilot change a lightbulb?

A: He holds the bulb and lets the world revolve around him.


Gup

Lol classic!

 

[aewanabe]

Warner: while we all respect the other work groups, no other craft or profession on property loses nearly as much from a furlough, staple, etc as a pilot. And with the possible exception of Tech Ops (maintenance for you non Jet-Bluers) no one has nearly the investment in their career as a pilot once we've reached a Legacy or LCC type carrier. It's not that we don't care if you lose your DX job at F9, but starting over at RAH or wherever won't screw you nearly as much as it does us. Sorry if that seems selfish.

 

[WarnerNo13]

Warner: while we all respect the other work groups, no other craft or profession on property loses nearly as much from a furlough, staple, etc as a pilot. And with the possible exception of Tech Ops (maintenance for you non Jet-Bluers) no one has nearly the investment in their career as a pilot once we've reached a Legacy or LCC type carrier. It's not that we don't care if you lose your DX job at F9, but starting over at RAH or wherever won't screw you nearly as much as it does us. Sorry if that seems selfish.

aewanabe, for the record I'm not an F9 DX. You cannont say what the value of another worker's loss is, truthfully. I understand the investment in time and money that pilots make, but other people invest their time and money as well, and have mortgages and mouths to feed just the same. I know your loss may seem more valuable to you by virtue of flying planes, but that cannot be more important to the mechanic whose life might be turned upside down after learning his/her craft and keeping your planes safe for many years. Other groups have seniority lists as well whose QOL depend on that also. Whether the group has 10 members or 1000 members, being stapled to the bottom of a seniority list has the same impact IMHO. How would you as pilot feel if you were watching in the background, while WN TWU was duking it out with Union X and deciding your fate for you with no input from you? Probably not very good.