SWA/FL Codeshare

[madjack]

We get it u wanted our pay, benefits, seats and seniority... U didn't get it

 

[General Lee]

We get it u wanted our pay, benefits, seats and seniority... U didn't get it

I think the Process Agreement allowed a Neutral to decide what was fair. Somehow, it never got that far. That is what is remembered.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

Guess you didn't see where he called me d!ckhead? Payback General thats all.

Yes, but in his defense, you are a d!ckhead.

 

[SWA/FO]

Yes, but in his defense, you are a d!ckhead.

You guys don't like the bed that you made for yourselves.... so sad. I guess, you're lucky that Gary Kelly didn't tell us what was on his mind either (that the 717s were going away). That would have been an excellent piece of info for SWAPA. Get over it. Yes IMO people would have voted yes, regardless of some threat.....thats why the 7 wonder pilots shot it down, they knew it would pass.

Remember, "Its not about the money" - I guess it is now, huh? :bawling:

 

[Lear70]

OK, went back and tried to find the Gary Kelly letter after the SIA 1 vote, and couldn't find it, it was on Flica and they purge that after a few months so it's gone now, but here's a few tidbits from right after that:

Airtran MEC Special Message

August 22, 2011

Fellow Pilots,
Last week, your MEC made the difficult decision to turn down the Seniority Integration Agreements (SIA) that the Merger Committee reached with SWAPA and SWA management. While the MEC sincerely appreciated SWA management's efforts on the economic aspects of the agreement, MEC members, based on pilot input received, believe firmly that the seniority list itself could not be considered “fair and equitable” to our members. That seniority list resulted in an average loss of relative seniority of 22% for AirTran pilots and over a 30% loss of relative seniority for some of our pilots. The MEC appreciates the hard work by all parties that lead to the development of conditions and restrictions (C&Rs) that lessened the effects of the seniority loss for some AirTran pilots, but the MEC ultimately concluded that the agreement could not and would not be ratified by our pilots.

I have been in contact today with Bob Jordan to explain the MEC’s decision and express the above concerns. Although Southwest management is disappointed that the agreement was not ratified, they have also agreed that the Seniority Integration Process Agreement (SIPA) details the additional mediation and arbitration steps required. The Merger Committee continues their work this week in Washington, D.C. to prepare for mediation, which is scheduled to begin at the end of this month and continue through September. More information will be coming out shortly from the Merger Committee to describe the mediation process.

Many of you have reviewed Gary Kelly’s letter and/or listened to his phone message this afternoon. His plainly stated disappointment with the failure of the agreement is obvious, and some of his comments related to reviewing the status of the integration process are concerning. However, there were also many positive aspects of Mr. Kelly's message. First, he stated that "the integration process will continue, but at a much slower pace." He goes on to say that the company is "still on track for a single operating certificate," early next year, which is an important hurdle to clear for any airline merger. And I believe most importantly, he was clear to say that "our jobs are secure."

I want to stress that AirTran pilot leadership and all members of the MEC and its committees are still fully committed to a respectful and constructive integration process -- and one that provides the basis for continuing Southwest’s long record of success and positive culture.

Conversations with SWA management have included discussion of a meeting with them in the coming days. We hope to continue efforts to identify and work on any possible ideas that could eliminate the current logjam. We hope that those discussions will continue to highlight the many positives to an efficient and fair integration rather than focus on steps that are not likely to promote our shared goals. Mr. Kelly importantly reminded everyone to “take a deep breath” and keep working hard. That is exactly what we intend to do.

We also urge you to please follow Gary's advice about not listening to rumor and innuendo. You have my personal assurance that your union will communicate with you throughout this process and make sure that you have the most up-to-date, and more importantly, the most accurate information available. If you hear a rumor that doesn't match what you've heard from your union, please contact the MEC Office or a P2P member to get the real scoop.

In service,

Linden Hillman, Chairman
AirTran Master Executive Council

What Linden left out of that, from the Gary Kelly letter that was in Flica, was this lovely excerpt:

"But again, given the current circumstances, we’ll now begin evaluating all options in addition to, or in lieu of, arbitration. We’ve withdrawn our offer, in light of the current economic circumstances, which is probably the prudent thing to do anyway. You know, this means that the integration process will continue, but will definitely work at a much slower pace."

Then, a few weeks later, this from a Southwest interview:

Southwest Considers Stand-Alone AirTran If Pilot Vote Fails

By Mary Schlangenstein and Mary Jane Credeur - Oct 11, 2011 2:36 PM MT


Southwest Airlines (LUV),told pilots it would keep operating newly acquired Air Tran Holdings as a stand-alone carrier if union members don’t agree to combine seniority lists. Southwest briefed pilots on a “Plan B” for “separate and unintegrated” operations after that union declined to hold a membership election on a seniority proposal, according to an AirTran union summary obtained by Bloomberg News. Pilots at both airlines are now voting until Nov. 7 on a new agreement.

Keeping AirTran flying on its own would run counter to the goal of folding the discount carrier into Southwest, the biggest low-fare airline. Dallas-based Southwest paid $1 billion in cash and stock in May to buy AirTran, winning access to fly into Atlanta, home of the world’s busiest airport.

“I’m sure that’s not what management planned when they acquired AirTran,” said Hunter Keay, a Wolfe Trahan & Co. analyst in New York who recommends holding Southwest. “It probably is to some degree a negotiating tactic.”

Pilots’ approval of one seniority list would give Southwest a timeline to blend workforces and fleets, and set union members’ rankings for pay, schedules and the types of jets they fly. For AirTran pilots, ratification will mean “certainty of integration,” Southwest said in a Sept. 22 letter to union members.

Staying Flexible

Southwest has met with pilots to explain “what that vote is and what it does,” Beth Harbin, a Southwest Airlines spokeswoman, said in an interview today. “Absent approval, we have to think about, ‘Where is the flexibility?’”

Harbin declined to discuss the AirTran union summary or what options Southwest would consider if pilots don’t accept the new seniority agreement.

“I’m certainly not going to go into any detail about what that flexibility is,” Harbin said. “Our focus is going to be on getting the deal with the pilots done quickly because that really does set a good momentum for the rest of the integration.”

In between those two events were the negotiations and discussions I mentioned, where they very clearly laid out how they would not integrate us if they so chose, including the Board meeting which fell that Friday and can be verified through your own Board meeting minutes.

The threats were not very subtle at all. Do I think we would have been integrated eventually? Yes, they sold the deal to the DoJ and DoT on an integrated operation and no job loss which would be the basis for a lawsuit with teeth and injunctions to go along with it. Does it matter now? Not in the least. The threat accomplished its purpose; they scared the bejesus out of the pilot group, they started recalling reps and writing letters begging to be simply stapled, started FB pages for the same thing, etc, etc, and we had no choice but to take whatever it was GK then offered.

Checkmate.

Just for the "you weren't threatened" crowd, one last time so that people understand it in the proper perspective. Absent those threats, SIA 2 never sees the light of day and we go to arbitration. With those threats... we are where we are.

 

[General Lee]

OK, went back and tried to find the Gary Kelly letter after the SIA 1 vote, and couldn't find it, it was on Flica and they purge that after a few months so it's gone now, but here's a few tidbits from right after that:


What Linden left out of that, from the Gary Kelly letter that was in Flica, was this lovely excerpt:



Then, a few weeks later, this from a Southwest interview:



In between those two events were the negotiations and discussions I mentioned, where they very clearly laid out how they would not integrate us if they so chose, including the Board meeting which fell that Friday and can be verified through your own Board meeting minutes.

The threats were not very subtle at all. Do I think we would have been integrated eventually? Yes, they sold the deal to the DoJ and DoT on an integrated operation and no job loss which would be the basis for a lawsuit with teeth and injunctions to go along with it. Does it matter now? Not in the least. The threat accomplished its purpose; they scared the bejesus out of the pilot group, they started recalling reps and writing letters begging to be simply stapled, started FB pages for the same thing, etc, etc, and we had no choice but to take whatever it was GK then offered.

Checkmate.

Just for the "you weren't threatened" crowd, one last time so that people understand it in the proper perspective. Absent those threats, SIA 2 never sees the light of day and we go to arbitration. With those threats... we are where we are.

But Lear, 83% voted for the second offer, so everyone HAD TO BE HAPPY WITH IT. It passed by such a WIDE margin........tic....



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[ASADFW7]

General how is your brother doing?

 

[General Lee]

General how is your brother doing?

He's good. I talked to him over the weekend, and he's busy. How's your wife and my kids? (sorry, I had to do it....)


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

Remember, "Its not about the money" - I guess it is now, huh? :bawling:

Um, no, still don't give a flying f^&* about the money.

 

[Dude]

What's it about then? Schedule? Junior here is better than senior at most. ATL? Base starting small but will be huge in a few years.

What do you care about, PCL? What is important and why did you commit yourself to the career path?

Honestly asking to understand your perspective.

 

[PCL_128]

What's it about then? Schedule? Junior here is better than senior at most. ATL? Base starting small but will be huge in a few years.

What do you care about, PCL? What is important and why did you commit yourself to the career path?

Honestly asking to understand your perspective.

Yes, it is about schedule and domicile to me. I never had any desire to work at SWA, and one of the reasons for that was the domiciles. Yes, ATL is opening, but only 100 AirTran pilots will be able to hold it at first, and all indications are that the base will never be bigger than 500 pilots, which means maybe 300 AirTran guys will get it. We currently have somewhere in the neighborhood of 500-600 guys who live in Atlanta or close enough to it that this is their obvious domicile choice. Best case scenario is that I'd be able to get back to Atlanta in 8 years. Probably closer to 10.

As far as schedules, I know you guys think you have the greatest schedules ever, but I think they suck. Especially when you're forced to commute like I would have to. Not a single line anywhere to be found with trips that are commutable on both ends. That means that a 16 day off line is really a 12 day off line. Meanwhile, I was used to being home every day of the year with the schedules I was holding here. And I know you think that schedule efficiency is just the most wonderful thing ever, but I actually like a little time between legs so I'm not running up to the terminal to hit some fast food joint on a 20 minute turn in the middle of a 5 leg day. I honestly don't understand why anyone thinks that those schedules are desirable.

So, I'm sorry, but the pay just doesn't come close to making up for the rest. It's no offense to you guys. If you like that kind of flying and like your domiciles, then more power to ya. But it just doesn't interest me in the slightest.

 

[Dude]

Fair enough.


Any chance I could get you to change your "Stay Classy" signature? I think we have plenty of "classy" people to point to on both sides.

Merry Christmas

 

[PCL_128]

Fair enough.


Any chance I could get you to change your "Stay Classy" signature? I think we have plenty of "classy" people to point to on both sides.

Merry Christmas

It'll come down when that rotten POS Chase leaves office in two weeks.

Merry Christmas!

 

[Dude]

POS? Wow. And rotten to boot?

Okay then.

 

[Lear70]

What's it about then? Schedule? Junior here is better than senior at most.

So you're telling me that going from senior F/O here, holding EVERY weekend and holiday off if I want it, 18-19 days off at guarantee, 24 hr overnights in tropical destinations and enjoyable West Coast cities, is available at Southwest?

I know it's not, but just submitting to you that junior at SWA isn't going to yield a better schedule and Quality of Life than I have here. I estimate 5-6 years before I get anywhere NEAR my schedule back. My son will be in High School by then and I'll be pushing 50.

ATL? Base starting small but will be huge in a few years.

PCL isn't nearly senior enough to hold it. Not with all our CA's coming over as F/O's. He's going to OAK/PHX/LAS with the rest of us if he wants to hold a line. Maybe a line in MDW or BWI a year or two after SWA starts hiring again and the junior people plug the holes in the West Coast bases. MAYBE ATL a year or two after that if hiring continues when our CA's in ATL have re-upgraded and the OAT senior to him have returned.

He'll get there... we all will... eventually. But it's going to be a good half-decade before we're recovering a good portion of what we lost in terms of Quality of Life.

 

[General Lee]

Lear and PCL,

Yeah but, now you'll get to see LBB, MAF, and AMA more than you EVER thought you would, EVER! You might see 5 different cities, all within Texas, in the same day! At least your pay will increase enough to pay for a nice hotel near the LAS or OAK airports.... Good luck guys, and if you don't like it, a certain airline I know may start hiring in 2014.....the 717 should be junior in ATL and DTW.....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

He's going to OAK/PHX/LAS

No, I can promise you I won't be. I'll live in a box in Riverdale before I commute to OAK.

 

[SWA/FO]

PCL is a miserable man. I hope he soon leaves. He is crying about a deal 83% of his co-workers voted in. Although, he hasn't crossed over yet, he fully understands how everything works at Southwest.

The vocal trannys don't even understand that there are two sides to every story. Ask the MCO based pilot that can't hold MCO cus thats where the trannys want to go and has been displaced to another base. You think he is happy about the AT deal? Ask anybody outbid for open time by a tranny that is senior to him? Yep you heard it, there are trannys actually senior to Southwest guys. PCL please do not come to Southwest.... I hear Delta maybe calling you soon....oh wait, you have to have a bit more flight time. :bawling:

 

[Lear70]

No, I can promise you I won't be. I'll live in a box in Riverdale before I commute to OAK.

LOL - nice. I figure you can probably hold reserve in MDW or HOU if you wait 'til the end of the transition. I can hold them now, but just barely. Then again, I don't want to go back on reserve, and the only way I can use ELITT to get rid of stuff efficiently (from what little I understand of it) is to hold a line SOMEWHERE. Will hate commuting 5 hours each way but I'll probably bid LAS, cheap hotels for uncommutable trips and better seniority to get rid of things, try to pick up trips out of BWI or MCO.

I figure I only need 65 TFP to break even for what I make here, so I'll drop down to that each month if I can get rid of the trips, then pick up what I can to stay working about 12-13 days a month, if I don't find those trips and get stuck at 65 Trips, can still easily pay the bills. Someone mentioned that ELITT lets you straight drop one trip per month? The rest you have to give away to someone if you want rid of it? Or did I misunderstand him...?

Yeah but, now you'll get to see LBB, MAF, and AMA more than you EVER thought you would, EVER! You might see 5 different cities, all within Texas, in the same day! At least your pay will increase enough to pay for a nice hotel near the LAS or OAK airports....

Well, I hear they have lots of steers and the other thing in those cities. Maybe I'll buy me some cows and start a farm while I'm roaming the Western TX range. Isn't that where they filmed "Brokeback Mountain"?

Good luck guys, and if you don't like it, a certain airline I know may start hiring in 2014.....the 717 should be junior in ATL and DTW.....

Well, thanks for the hint, but I'm stuck here even if I wasn't getting a little old to start over again and make up the lost income from leaving 8th year SWA F/O pay to 1st year DAL pay. Kolski and Klaus fixed that for me. I'll always have to report the termination on employment applications, however wrongful it was and however many court battles I won, even when they voluntarily admitted it wasn't fraud and gave me back my Work Comp, approved the surgery, etc.

There's an arbitration precedent for that from about 7 years ago that you MUST report a termination on your job application, even if it was overturned and expunged by an arbitrator (a guy permanently lost his Legacy carrier job and lost his arbitration over it because he didn't report an overturned termination). With that in mind, I can't see a Legacy taking someone with that on their record, even if the REST of their record is perfect, with lots of positive 'atta boys for customer service and good job performance and such in his file (like mine) when there are THOUSANDS of RJ applicants with perfect records applying for a few hundred jobs.

Likely my application wouldn't even make it through the electronic screening process to a human eye at any of the Legacies. Such is life, and is sometimes the price you pay for sticking your neck out for what you believe in. That's why ALPA has Flight Pay Loss for union-associated job actions in their ByLaws; I'm not the first to suffer some reciprocity, and likely won't be the last. But even with that, it does limit your options later.

I'll find a happy place over there and fly out my career, even though it won't ever be what I was hoping and planning for it to be since before I was in High School. That's one of the things I have learned through all this - find your happy place outside aviation; the industry is too volatile to make your job the basis for that happiness. Come to work, do your job to the best of your abilities with a good attitude, have as much fun as possible, go home to what's important. The rest will take care of itself. :beer:

 

[Lear70]

The vocal trannys don't even understand that there are two sides to every story. Ask the MCO based pilot that can't hold MCO cus thats where the trannys want to go and has been displaced to another base. You think he is happy about the AT deal?

Has he called to congratulate the senior F/O who upgraded into that AirTran Captain's seat, thus forcing the downgrade of someone who has the seniority to hold Captain? Because if that hadn't happened to the BENEFIT of that OTHER SWA pilot, the MCO F/O wouldn't have lost his seat.

What was that about there being TWO sides to every story?

Ask anybody outbid for open time by a tranny that is senior to him? Yep you heard it, there are trannys actually senior to Southwest guys.

Again, you're only telling HALF the story, which my grandmother always told me is a HALF LIE, and there are no such things as half-lies.

The PRIMARY reason there are AirTran F/O's senior to SWA F/O's is because they were kicked out of their CAPTAINS seats and made to be F/O's so that other SWA F/O's could upgrade out of seniority order.

So yes, your company negotiated a deal that benefited YOUR senior F/O's at the expense of our CA's and that is causing the junior F/O's hardship. They built the deal. Your union went along with it. End of story.

You act like it's all our fault, when our Captains don't WANT to be bidding against your F/O's, they want to be bidding against your CA's where they belong. All of the AirTran pilots and many of the SWA pilots (except the super-senior CA's above our most senior pilot along with your F/O's who upgraded out of the deal) are facing hardship moving forward. Pot-stirring doesn't help, even if it makes you feel better to lash out about it to the people who had nothing to do with making the deal like it is.

That's why I don't blame your pilots, and you shouldn't blame ours. Your management decided to buy us, they crafted the deal, the terms and conditions, they did it all. We are just along for the ride.

 

[SWA/FO]

Has he called to congratulate the senior F/O who upgraded into that AirTran Captain's seat

Hasn't happen yet. We have like 0 tranny airplanes over here.

 

[freightdogfred]

Hasn't happen yet. We have like 0 tranny airplanes over here.

Au Contrare, mon frere....those -800's were Airtran orders

 

[canyonblue]

You act like it's all our fault, when our Captains don't WANT to be bidding against your F/O's, they want to be bidding against your CA's where they belong.

Even if it were DOH, a large chunk of your Captains would have been FO's if there was a bump and flush, but you probably wouldn't have expected that either. What exactly was the gain for a Southwest pilot in this deal supposed to be? Remember, they had to entice us to get a yes vote also.

 

[canyonblue]

Au Contrare, mon frere....those -800's were Airtran orders

Yeah, right. :laugh:

 

[Lear70]

Hasn't happen yet. We have like 0 tranny airplanes over here.

Yes there are. 9 so far, 3 more in Jan and Feb, 3 more by summer. Would you like the hull numbers?

 

[SWA/FO]

Au Contrare, mon frere....those -800's were Airtran orders

yeah, Southwest had zero aircraft on order.

Yes there are. 9 so far, 3 more in Jan and Feb, 3 more by summer. Would you like the hull numbers?

yeah, like I said 0. Your 9 airplanes have not triggered any upgrades. Upgrades have been because we are light on Capts, & increase vacation time.

 

[ATLplt]

Hasn't happen yet. We have like 0 tranny airplanes over here.

Are you honestly THAT stupid in real life or do you play dumb on purpose when you post here? Serious question.

 

[humveedriver]

yeah, Southwest had zero aircraft on order.



yeah, like I said 0. Your 9 airplanes have not triggered any upgrades. Upgrades have been because we are light on Capts, & increase vacation time.

Not following that logic? You are already light on Captains. 9 additional AT 737s transition, but that does't INCREASE the need for upgrades?

 

[SWAdude]

OK, went back and tried to find the Gary Kelly letter after the SIA 1 vote, and couldn't find it, it was on Flica and they purge that after a few months so it's gone now, but here's a few tidbits from right after that:


What Linden left out of that, from the Gary Kelly letter that was in Flica, was this lovely excerpt:



Then, a few weeks later, this from a Southwest interview:



In between those two events were the negotiations and discussions I mentioned, where they very clearly laid out how they would not integrate us if they so chose, including the Board meeting which fell that Friday and can be verified through your own Board meeting minutes.

The threats were not very subtle at all. Do I think we would have been integrated eventually? Yes, they sold the deal to the DoJ and DoT on an integrated operation and no job loss which would be the basis for a lawsuit with teeth and injunctions to go along with it. Does it matter now? Not in the least. The threat accomplished its purpose; they scared the bejesus out of the pilot group, they started recalling reps and writing letters begging to be simply stapled, started FB pages for the same thing, etc, etc, and we had no choice but to take whatever it was GK then offered.

Checkmate.

Just for the "you weren't threatened" crowd, one last time so that people understand it in the proper perspective. Absent those threats, SIA 2 never sees the light of day and we go to arbitration. With those threats... we are where we are.

I recognize both those documents. Those made the rounds around here also. Too bad you can't find the one that gave you grave concern because I just don't see and "take this or your unemployed" type of statements. What I see is in your first letter actually quite a bit of reinsurance right under what you wanted to show.

Airtran MEC Special Message

August 22, 2011

Fellow Pilots,
Last week, your MEC made the difficult decision to turn down the Seniority Integration Agreements (SIA) that the Merger Committee reached with SWAPA and SWA management. While the MEC sincerely appreciated SWA management's efforts on the economic aspects of the agreement, MEC members, based on pilot input received, believe firmly that the seniority list itself could not be considered “fair and equitable” to our members. That seniority list resulted in an average loss of relative seniority of 22% for AirTran pilots and over a 30% loss of relative seniority for some of our pilots. The MEC appreciates the hard work by all parties that lead to the development of conditions and restrictions (C&Rs) that lessened the effects of the seniority loss for some AirTran pilots, but the MEC ultimately concluded that the agreement could not and would not be ratified by our pilots.

I have been in contact today with Bob Jordan to explain the MEC’s decision and express the above concerns. Although Southwest management is disappointed that the agreement was not ratified, they have also agreed that the Seniority Integration Process Agreement (SIPA) details the additional mediation and arbitration steps required. The Merger Committee continues their work this week in Washington, D.C. to prepare for mediation, which is scheduled to begin at the end of this month and continue through September. More information will be coming out shortly from the Merger Committee to describe the mediation process.

Many of you have reviewed Gary Kelly’s letter and/or listened to his phone message this afternoon. His plainly stated disappointment with the failure of the agreement is obvious, and some of his comments related to reviewing the status of the integration process are concerning. However, there were also many positive aspects of Mr. Kelly's message. First, he stated that "the integration process will continue, but at a much slower pace." He goes on to say that the company is "still on track for a single operating certificate," early next year, which is an important hurdle to clear for any airline merger. And I believe most importantly, he was clear to say that "our jobs are secure."

I want to stress that AirTran pilot leadership and all members of the MEC and its committees are still fully committed to a respectful and constructive integration process -- and one that provides the basis for continuing Southwest’s long record of success and positive culture.

Conversations with SWA management have included discussion of a meeting with them in the coming days. We hope to continue efforts to identify and work on any possible ideas that could eliminate the current logjam. We hope that those discussions will continue to highlight the many positives to an efficient and fair integration rather than focus on steps that are not likely to promote our shared goals. Mr. Kelly importantly reminded everyone to “take a deep breath” and keep working hard. That is exactly what we intend to do.

We also urge you to please follow Gary's advice about not listening to rumor and innuendo. You have my personal assurance that your union will communicate with you throughout this process and make sure that you have the most up-to-date, and more importantly, the most accurate information available. If you hear a rumor that doesn't match what you've heard from your union, please contact the MEC Office or a P2P member to get the real scoop.

In service,

Linden Hillman, Chairman
AirTran Master Executive Council

Someone must have the exact letter of which you are referring. I would really like to see it so maybe I can have a better understanding of where the AT pilots are coming from.

Thanks.

 

[Whataburger]

Hasn't happen yet. We have like 0 tranny airplanes over here.

I flew one.