SWA Bases for New Hires

[MLBWINGBORN]

Ya want some cheese with that whine there boy?

Just kidding...

Reserve blows and i will get otta your way as soon as BWI opens up..I promise!!

Mike

 

[vx9.tc]

MLBWINGBORN,
I'll bet a case you'll get BWI in April. Looking forward to meeting you.

 

[Heavy Set]

BBJ/GIVSP Captain to 737 FO???????

Bally,

I like your pedigree. Quick question - why would you want to leave a BBJ/GIVSP position (probably one of the top corporate positions out there...) for the right seat of a 737 with a 5-6 year upgrade time? Sure, everyone wants to fly for Southwest and it would be a great company to work for, but you will probably make a lot less and you would not be able to fly to London, Tokyo, Rio, etc. (you would have a stable job, but you would be flying between Little Rock and El Paso instead).

Why would you want to leave your "cherry" corporate job? What don't you like about it?

 

[PolarDirt]

Since we are on this topic now, i'd like to hear some opions. I'm a Polar 747 Captain in my early 30's and going to SWA in a few months. At Polar I make $100,000+, fly around the world, i'm very senior, and i like my job. I going to SWA, i'm not stupid, just wanted to see what you guys think. Hearing from SWA guys would be really nice.

Also what can i really expect to make my first couple of years.
Thanks Guys, be kind.

 

[Bally]

Heaveyset

It all depends on what kind of life style you would like. I have been flying corporate all my aviation career. While Captain pay on the Boing Business Jet is most likely more than Captain pay at SWA, the vast majority of corporate jobs, including mine, require that you are on call 24/7. While we do have "hard days off", they are often interuppted with a trip. Imagine being on reserve everyday.

Another reason to give up a Captain position on a BBJ or GIV is that this airplane has a 6,500 nm range. In corporate, the saying is the bigger the airplane, the bigger your suitcase. It is not uncommon to be gone for weeks at a time.

Last month I flew to Vietnam, Prauge, Geneva, London, NY, and was gone 28 days. Try to have a family with that schedule. The glamor and novalty wears off fast.

In my younger years, being gone all the time and flying all over the world was a blast. Especially if you were out with a great crew. I have been to every county on the planet, and being a pilot in a corporate jet is true aviating.

I love to fly and look forward to the day when I have a REAL SCHEDULE, and will be happy to sit in the right seat. At my stage of life, family is my number one priority.

If the age 60 rule still exists when I reach 60 (in twenty years), I will no doubt go back to corporate. By then, I hope to have my house paid off, kids through school, and can take a job flying somthing like a small Lear 60.

No doubt, I will miss flying corporate.

 

[tredding@swa]

Oh Boy.....

Here I go, can't stop myself on this one.......

FOr those who don't know, the "G" in Gulfstream stands for GONE. As in GONE for 3 weeks to see 12 cities around the world. Yea, the $$ is good - the equipment is cool - but at some point, LIFE & lifestyle must count for something. Same goes for the 747 I would imagine??

Having flown "corporate" 91 & 135 for 17 years, I can tell you, there is one recurring theme - NO schedule. Yes, there ARE excpetions (EJA, fracs in general) however, the MAJORity of ALL biz jet jobs have the same attitude. You are on call (reserve if you will) almost 24/7. A day off is a day you didn't fly.

Money is no longer my #1 concern in a job. Seeing my daughter grow up, being with my wife on our anniversary, being able to take 3 days and go off for the weekend WITHOUT asking permission, knowing a month in advance where I will be, what I will fly, when I will be home..... priceless. (For everything else, there's Mastercard )

Getting the "perfect" corporate job is almost impossible..... even when you do(or think you have), the pay will top out at $150K (IF you are lucky) and your chance of keeping that job until retirement is slim to none. Of course most airline jobs are in danger of having this "feature" in today's environment as well.....

I am thankful for ALL of the opportunities I have experienced during my aviation career thus far...... most pilots who have seen my resume' have remarked how "lucky" I have been. I agree completely, however - MY decision, personally - the perfect job for my family & I will start (hopefully) in the not too distant future... (hello LL, are you reading this?????!)

As usual - it all comes down to personal choice -
none of us are "right" or "wrong" here -
we simply make the correct choices for ourselves & our families based on which variables meet our individual needs best.

I honestly hope that EVERYone has the chance during their aviation career to become HAPPY with their career choices. I still believe (even with today's state of the industry) that an aviation career can be the most rewarding job available. Personally & financially. It will always hold true that if you are willing to work hard, stay focued, pay some "dues" and believe in yourself - aviation will give back what you put into it 10 fold, perhaps even more? Trust me, it has in my case......

Uh..... sorry for the RANT...... I feel like Dennis Miller all of the sudden...... oops - one more thing..... whatever YOU decide is best, then do it, and give it 110%, no one can ever second guess you or give you grief for that.

Have a great weekend - Tred

 

[Jolly Roger]

Polar,

That's a great question, and I have been wrestling with a similar one for quite some time. I hope someone out there will respond with some good thoughts...

I am in the pool with SWA (probably nearly a year out from a class date) and currently an F/O on the 747-400 with Cathay Pacific. I earn in the six figure range, and am looking at significant pay increments in the near future. I typically fly two trips a month, spending 12-14 days away from home a month and a relatively stable schedule. I am US based, have an easy commute, fly internationally with great crews, and life is generally great. Cathay offers some benefits the US majors don't offer, including some exotic bases and other opportunities.

On the downside, I work for a foriegn company with little labor protection, can not drop trips for my military reserve flying job (which I would like to continue). I face a possibility of being relocated overseas for a few years as a junior captain until I could bid back to the US. I don't mind Hong Kong, but my wife wouldn't feel the same.

Having said all that, I would have run to SWA earlier if the classes would have continued. I find more doubts as I become more comfortable in my current position. I still lean toward SWA, but don't want to be a "green grass chaser". I know how great a company SWA is, but in these uncertain times I am a bit leery stapling myself to the bottom of a seniority list. I have many friends who ran to United, Delta, and the like and some have since re interviewed at Cathay but are still unemployed. Someone much smarter than I once said "you never know if you made the right choices until the day you retire" and I know that is true.

In these times I am grateful to be employed, and have not lost sight of what I have. I would be happy to hear from anyone with some thoughts on the matter, and I'm sure Polar would appreciate it as well.

 

[Snoopy58]

Jolly,

For advice on how to consider the question, I really have to recommend Tred's thoughts above as some of the best I've seen... "the right decision" doesn't exist, so much as "the right decision for me." I'll offer a couple of random thoughts off the top of my head.

First, your schedule will change dramatically. From 2 trips a month, to four or five -- yes, you can sit 5 three day reserve blocks at first. Probably not close to home (unless you live near Oakland). What your commute will look like, only you know that. How long until you get based close to home, depends on how rapidly hiring happens after your class, and what base you live close to (again, if you live near OAK, no worries). But the days of two 6-day trips in a month are gone forever... almost all our 3-day trips fly over 15 hours (i.e. you can't put 2 of them back-to back), and after most of the 4-day trips, you're close enough to 30-in-7 that you can't fly much else. Best case, you can do three 4-day trips in a month... but those are highly prized (especially the weekday trips), so they aren't something you can count on for a while. More likely case, 4 trips in a month, some 3 days and some 4 days. We have several ways to trade trips, and while you can frequently trade into any ONE thing you want (pay, or most weekends off, or a particular overnight near home, or shorter or fewer trips, etc), it's hard to get *everything* you want -- especially at first!

For the most part, the crews at SWA are great. Somebody on another thread made a remark a while back about "yeah, but *I* don't have to suffer thru Midland overnights!" I didn't call him on it then, but you can actually have some tremendous fun with your crew on the overnights in the smaller towns, partly because the crews are more likely to hang out together. While every place has their "bottom 10%," the 90% at SWA are some outstanding people (and I definitely include our F/A's in that as well); you can really enjoy the overnights. Some are short (11-12 hours), a few are really long (16-18 hours+), most are in between. Decent hotels.

Pay... well, if you're looking at 6 figures now, it's gonna go down for a while... quite a ways down. If you're close to your base so you can pick up extra flying without demolishing your home life, you can make a good bit more than you would otherwise, but it takes flexibility & work. Here's the typical gig: bid weekend reserve & show a "pass" preference (instead of a "fly" preference). Then, as soon as your reserve block ends, try to pick up extra flying. Anything you pick up from the company (i.e. not a giveaway from another pilot, but from the open time bank) during the first year pays at 2nd year rates. For reserve blocks in the future, the computer will assume something like 6 hours per day for checking legality for what you pick up (i.e. you can't pick up to the point that you're unusable during your reserve block), but for reserve you've already sat, what you actually flew is all that counts. Some guys can get paid quite a bit this way, and those who do this can tell you all the good tricks of the trade. Like I said, tho, if you don't live in domicile, it'll be hard to do that & have a life at home.

Trip drops for military flying: couldn't be simpler or easier. The chief pilots that I've dealt with have all been 110% accommodating for reserve duty. You put the dates you're away from base for reserve duty on a form, and at the appropriate time everything that conflicts with those dates goes away, and there's a code on your screen in the computer so you can't get called for JA (i.e. drafted to fly an uncovered trip) during that time either. No questions, no hassel, no negative "vibes."

Chief pilots: all the ones I've dealt with have been excellent. While you hear the "horror stories" from time to time, every interaction I've had with them has been positive. They all came from the line, and when they're done as chief pilots, most of them go back to the line -- they're "pilots like us." Even on probation, I felt like they treated me with respect as an experienced aviator & a part of the team.

Same experience with the check airmen -- great guys to fly with. Of the check airmen I've flown with, every one of them would easily be in the top third of the pilots I've flown with. If I had an option to fly with Captain X or Captain Y, and the only thing I knew about either was that one was a check airman, he's the one I'd want to fly with. The ones I've seen (which has been a fair number) have all been good guys, big picture, and easy to fly & get along with.

Union stuff: I don't have a basis to make a firsthand comparison with other airlines, but one big reason I came to SWA was because I hated the thought of the acrimonious confrontations at AA, UAL, and other places. Generally, I haven't been disapointed. From what I've seen, SWAPA does a good job standing up for guys who need the protection, and generally has a pretty good working relationship with the company. It's not perfect, but it is pretty good -- not overly adversarial over pointless things, for instance. (This has improved recently over the situation a while ago -- more professional, less confrontational, imho.)

Other change for you: you'll fly the airplane... a lot! In Texas (if you're based in HOU or DAL), you can get up to 8 legs in a -200 in a day. Yeah, that's a LOT of flying, but it goes surprisingly quick, and the -200 is a good jet to hand-fly, and it lands sweet! Everywhere else, 5 or 6 legs is about the max you'll do (and not in -200's, since they're only flown by DAL & HOU crews now). But that's still quite a bit. No autothrottles, and you can see the VNAV info but can't couple the autopilot to it. Hand-flying the jet is encouraged during climbout & approach -- especially the visual approaches. There is a real emphasis on flying the jet efficiently, i.e. minimizing "drone" time configured & level with high thrust. You're always configured by 1000' agl, but on a visual approach you may not set your last notch of flaps until about 1050' agl! It takes some getting used to, but it's a fun challenge to pull the power to idle as you descend out of cruise, get cleared the visual 20 miles out, and not touch the thrust levers again until you spool the engines just prior to 500' agl, on speed & on glidepath. If you can successfully do that 3 times in a day of flying, you're doing pretty good & you'll know it!

"The grass is always greener..." There have been a few guys who left SWA in the few years prior to 9/11 for UAL, Delta, American, etc, and I don't know how many (if any) have come back to SWA (though I do know that several tried to). While you'll never make $300k here flying a 777 international, it's a really good place to be, and I think that the majority of guys here do NOT look "over the fence" & long for what "the other guys" have. Now especially, but even before 9/11, most people at SWA were pretty happy with where they were & the way things were. There are always things that could be better (pay being one of them -- perpetually for everybody, and us being no exception), but to the extent that there are real "better" and "worse" places to be, for a lot of people SWA truly is an improvement over where they are, not just a vain "grass is always greener" sort of thing.

So, if you're okay with the pay cut for a few years & starting over at the "bottom of the totem pole" for a while (with all its attendant "perks" -- last choice at monthly schedule, base, vacation, etc), and can be happy with the sorts of flying we do (not every day is 6 legs -- not by a long shot, but you'll certainly see plenty of them), then you can confidently look forward to a good time when you come to SWA. While it isn't for everybody, it is right for a lot of people.

Sorry this ran so long; if anybody has questions, feel free to post here or PM me.

All the best to all the poolies -- I'm looking forward to having you all on board with us!

Snoopy

 

[want2fly]

check airman question

What are the requirements for becoming a check airman at SWA? Do they have other duties in addition to line checks? How much more are they paid than a reqular line captain?
Thanks.

 

[Sierra-Hotel]

Jolly,

For advice on how to consider the question, I really have to recommend Tred's thoughts above as some of the best I've seen... "the right decision" doesn't exist, so much as "the right decision for me." I'll offer a couple of random thoughts off the top of my head.

First, your schedule will change dramatically. From 2 trips a month, to four or five -- yes, you can sit 5 three day reserve blocks at first. Probably not close to home (unless you live near Oakland). What your commute will look like, only you know that. How long until you get based close to home, depends on how rapidly hiring happens after your class, and what base you live close to (again, if you live near OAK, no worries). But the days of two 6-day trips in a month are gone forever... almost all our 3-day trips fly over 15 hours (i.e. you can't put 2 of them back-to back), and after most of the 4-day trips, you're close enough to 30-in-7 that you can't fly much else. Best case, you can do three 4-day trips in a month... but those are highly prized (especially the weekday trips), so they aren't something you can count on for a while. More likely case, 4 trips in a month, some 3 days and some 4 days. We have several ways to trade trips, and while you can frequently trade into any ONE thing you want (pay, or most weekends off, or a particular overnight near home, or shorter or fewer trips, etc), it's hard to get *everything* you want -- especially at first!

For the most part, the crews at SWA are great. Somebody on another thread made a remark a while back about "yeah, but *I* don't have to suffer thru Midland overnights!" I didn't call him on it then, but you can actually have some tremendous fun with your crew on the overnights in the smaller towns, partly because the crews are more likely to hang out together. While every place has their "bottom 10%," the 90% at SWA are some outstanding people (and I definitely include our F/A's in that as well); you can really enjoy the overnights. Some are short (11-12 hours), a few are really long (16-18 hours+), most are in between. Decent hotels.

Pay... well, if you're looking at 6 figures now, it's gonna go down for a while... quite a ways down. If you're close to your base so you can pick up extra flying without demolishing your home life, you can make a good bit more than you would otherwise, but it takes flexibility & work. Here's the typical gig: bid weekend reserve & show a "pass" preference (instead of a "fly" preference). Then, as soon as your reserve block ends, try to pick up extra flying. Anything you pick up from the company (i.e. not a giveaway from another pilot, but from the open time bank) during the first year pays at 2nd year rates. For reserve blocks in the future, the computer will assume something like 6 hours per day for checking legality for what you pick up (i.e. you can't pick up to the point that you're unusable during your reserve block), but for reserve you've already sat, what you actually flew is all that counts. Some guys can get paid quite a bit this way, and those who do this can tell you all the good tricks of the trade. Like I said, tho, if you don't live in domicile, it'll be hard to do that & have a life at home.

Trip drops for military flying: couldn't be simpler or easier. The chief pilots that I've dealt with have all been 110% accommodating for reserve duty. You put the dates you're away from base for reserve duty on a form, and at the appropriate time everything that conflicts with those dates goes away, and there's a code on your screen in the computer so you can't get called for JA (i.e. drafted to fly an uncovered trip) during that time either. No questions, no hassel, no negative "vibes."

Chief pilots: all the ones I've dealt with have been excellent. While you hear the "horror stories" from time to time, every interaction I've had with them has been positive. They all came from the line, and when they're done as chief pilots, most of them go back to the line -- they're "pilots like us." Even on probation, I felt like they treated me with respect as an experienced aviator & a part of the team.

Same experience with the check airmen -- great guys to fly with. Of the check airmen I've flown with, every one of them would easily be in the top third of the pilots I've flown with. If I had an option to fly with Captain X or Captain Y, and the only thing I knew about either was that one was a check airman, he's the one I'd want to fly with. The ones I've seen (which has been a fair number) have all been good guys, big picture, and easy to fly & get along with.

Union stuff: I don't have a basis to make a firsthand comparison with other airlines, but one big reason I came to SWA was because I hated the thought of the acrimonious confrontations at AA, UAL, and other places. Generally, I haven't been disapointed. From what I've seen, SWAPA does a good job standing up for guys who need the protection, and generally has a pretty good working relationship with the company. It's not perfect, but it is pretty good -- not overly adversarial over pointless things, for instance. (This has improved recently over the situation a while ago -- more professional, less confrontational, imho.)

Other change for you: you'll fly the airplane... a lot! In Texas (if you're based in HOU or DAL), you can get up to 8 legs in a -200 in a day. Yeah, that's a LOT of flying, but it goes surprisingly quick, and the -200 is a good jet to hand-fly, and it lands sweet! Everywhere else, 5 or 6 legs is about the max you'll do (and not in -200's, since they're only flown by DAL & HOU crews now). But that's still quite a bit. No autothrottles, and you can see the VNAV info but can't couple the autopilot to it. Hand-flying the jet is encouraged during climbout & approach -- especially the visual approaches. There is a real emphasis on flying the jet efficiently, i.e. minimizing "drone" time configured & level with high thrust. You're always configured by 1000' agl, but on a visual approach you may not set your last notch of flaps until about 1050' agl! It takes some getting used to, but it's a fun challenge to pull the power to idle as you descend out of cruise, get cleared the visual 20 miles out, and not touch the thrust levers again until you spool the engines just prior to 500' agl, on speed & on glidepath. If you can successfully do that 3 times in a day of flying, you're doing pretty good & you'll know it!

"The grass is always greener..." There have been a few guys who left SWA in the few years prior to 9/11 for UAL, Delta, American, etc, and I don't know how many (if any) have come back to SWA (though I do know that several tried to). While you'll never make $300k here flying a 777 international, it's a really good place to be, and I think that the majority of guys here do NOT look "over the fence" & long for what "the other guys" have. Now especially, but even before 9/11, most people at SWA were pretty happy with where they were & the way things were. There are always things that could be better (pay being one of them -- perpetually for everybody, and us being no exception), but to the extent that there are real "better" and "worse" places to be, for a lot of people SWA truly is an improvement over where they are, not just a vain "grass is always greener" sort of thing.

So, if you're okay with the pay cut for a few years & starting over at the "bottom of the totem pole" for a while (with all its attendant "perks" -- last choice at monthly schedule, base, vacation, etc), and can be happy with the sorts of flying we do (not every day is 6 legs -- not by a long shot, but you'll certainly see plenty of them), then you can confidently look forward to a good time when you come to SWA. While it isn't for everybody, it is right for a lot of people.

Sorry this ran so long; if anybody has questions, feel free to post here or PM me.

All the best to all the poolies -- I'm looking forward to having you all on board with us!

Snoopy

Okay Snoopy......you got me sold! Where do I sign up. Oh wait I'm missing that 1000hrs Turbine PIC and 737 type. Oh well, guess I have to wait a couple years!