SWA/ATA revisited

[roughneck]

I just heard from a "management" type on the jumpseat that SWA is looking at ATA's scheduled operations again.

Apparently they looked at buying ATA back in 04 prior to the codeshare deal, but decided against it. Now they are looking at buying ATA to get the etops and Hawaii and Mexico flying.

I asked about the employee group integration and culture issues that always seem to be the deal stopper with SWA and his reply surprised me.

"We won't have a employee integration issue. They will either agree to come over at the bottom of the pilot seniority list, or they can line up in seniority order and turn in applications like everyone else."

We talked about the new Bond/McKatskill ammendment that requires Alegheny/Mohawk to be used and he said that wasn't an issue here. Apparently, SWA legal believes that Global Aero Logistics is "the operation." And the new ammendment only applies if you buy more than 50% of the "operation." They believe that ATA's scheduled service represents less than 50% of the Global Aero Logistics operation and thus this doesn't apply.

I am not trying to stir the pot, but it looks like something is going to happen soon. I hope you guys will take a lesson from the TransStar deal and take the "offer." It will likely mean a pay raise even if you move seats and you will be at a company that you can retire from.

Good Luck.

 

[bravodude]

Please dont take this guy as speaking for us all. DO WHATEVER IT IS YOU GUYS THINK IS RIGHT!

(my own personal opinion is re-interview and then 1-1 integration but its just that my own personal opinion)

 

[CaptSeth]

We'll settle this in court, thank you. And enjoy the assesment SWAPA is going to have to hit you with if you don't go with Alleghany Mohawk.

 

[atafan]

To be honest.

I JUST DON'T CARE ANYMORE!!!!!!

I'd rather sink it than bend over and take it up the back side by another frigging pilot group.

F U

Love ya mean it!

 

[JumpJetter]

Why would buying anyone be necessary? If ATA stops flying those routes, do they go up for sale or something? I don't really understand how it works. SWA is taking 29 new -700s this year, but the net growth is only 5-10 due to -300 retirements. Couldn't SWA gain access to the routes and just utilize their own aircraft by not retiring the -300s as fast? I suppose you would obviously need to gain ETOPS certification on Hawaii bound aircraft, but could they buy a few that may be sold by ATA or even have the aircraft being delivered new from Boeing be certified? Again, don't understand how all that occurs if anyone wants to educate?

It just seems interest in the routes ATA has is not a huge amount and could be covered by current (or lack thereof) growth plans.

 

[atafan]

I suppose you would obviously need to gain ETOPS certification on Hawaii bound aircraft, but could they buy a few that may be sold by ATA or even have the aircraft being delivered new from Boeing be certified? Again, don't understand how all that occurs if anyone wants to educate?

Believe me if SWA could just flip a switch and start doing the kind of flying we do they would. Please give ATA a little credit. We have been flying worldwide for many years and have the Ops Specs and various certifications that cost money and time to achieve, this has worth.

If SWA wants to grow up and be an International competitor they need what ATA has and they need it NOW. It would take at least a couple of years and many millions of dollars to get the Ops Specs that ATA has now. The problem is, you can't just buy our Ops Specs you have to buy the whole certificate, sorry. The expense to do this on your own is very, very high. Buying ATA would be a much less expensive way to achieve an Int'l operations.

My message to SWA pilots Mr. Roughneck. If SWA bought ATA and our small pilot group and treated us right than SWA would have a well motivated pilot group to work with and help transition your airline into a world player. By utilizing this new authorization SWA would have a huge overall growth in your seniority list dwarfing the small number of ATA pilots you integrated.

If you just want to be ugly than you might just miss out on this huge opportunity.

 

[1800 RVR]

I am not trying to stir the pot, but it looks like something is going to happen soon. I hope you guys will take a lesson from the TransStar deal and take the "offer." It will likely mean a pay raise even if you move seats and you will be at a company that you can retire from.

Good Luck.

As a former ATA pilot, all I can say is WOW! I like the way you make it sound so comfy cozy by saying "I'm not trying to stir the pot,..." but yet, you come off totally as stirring the pot! Why should they thake the "offer"? Because it would probably be good for YOU, whereas a seniority integration would hurt you. I don't have a dog in this fight anymore. But this has been some of the lousiest advice I've seen in a long time.

 

[Tanker Clown]

Why wouldn't an ATA guy be willing to be pay protected and go to the bottom of the SWA list? What are your other options. Go down with the ship? Sure, you'd be at the bottom of the SWA list, but at least you know you'd have a job. The way things are going now, one day you'll open the paper and ATA will have shut the doors. Sounds to me like SWA could be a life saver.

Pride is great, but it doesn't put food on the table.

 

[CaptSeth]

You'd make a great scab, tanker ass-clown. Too bad Lorenzo is gone, I'm sure you'd have fun living on your knees.

 

[AQ PILOT]

CaptSeth, why such animosity coming out of you? What am I missing here? I'm not sure if you're an ATA guy or not, but if you had two options one being on the street out of a job and the other being the very last guy on WN's seniority list, why wouldn't you prefer the latter? Hell, you could always quit WN if you didn't want to be there!

What exactly are you fighting for here? If you're an ATA guy, what is it you would like to see happen exactly? Personally, I'd love to see a 'fair' merge with AQ and ATA. Better yet, a merge with WN would be phenomenal for little ol' AQ. But I know I'd much rather be stapled to the bottom of WN than collecting unemployment and filling out airline apps again!

Seriously man, what is it you want here...

 

[Tanker Clown]

AQ PILOT, You'd make a great scab. I'm not sure why, but Capt Seth seems to think any logical argument (such as yours) is scaberific.

 

[Kharma Police]

I just heard from a "management" type on the jumpseat that SWA is looking at ATA's scheduled operations again.

Apparently they looked at buying ATA back in 04 prior to the codeshare deal, but decided against it. Now they are looking at buying ATA to get the etops and Hawaii and Mexico flying.

I asked about the employee group integration and culture issues that always seem to be the deal stopper with SWA and his reply surprised me.

"We won't have a employee integration issue. They will either agree to come over at the bottom of the pilot seniority list, or they can line up in seniority order and turn in applications like everyone else."

We talked about the new Bond/McKatskill ammendment that requires Alegheny/Mohawk to be used and he said that wasn't an issue here. Apparently, SWA legal believes that Global Aero Logistics is "the operation." And the new ammendment only applies if you buy more than 50% of the "operation." They believe that ATA's scheduled service represents less than 50% of the Global Aero Logistics operation and thus this doesn't apply.

I am not trying to stir the pot, but it looks like something is going to happen soon. I hope you guys will take a lesson from the TransStar deal and take the "offer." It will likely mean a pay raise even if you move seats and you will be at a company that you can retire from.

Good Luck.

Man, you guys are pr!cks.

 

[In The Wind]

Capt. Seth is a ATA pilot. His wife prob. left him for a SWA pilot so he is bitter. The only ones that have screwed the ATA pilots is there own MGT. not any other carrier!

 

[Kharma Police]

Capt. Seth is a ATA pilot. His wife prob. left him for a SWA pilot so he is bitter. The only ones that have screwed the ATA pilots is there own MGT. not any other carrier!

Like I said before.......

 

[ATADave]

Note: The following represents only my personal opinion. It is not, and is not intended to be a statement issued by the ALPA represented ATA pilot group.

AQ Pilot,

Let me make sure I understand you correctly. A “fair” merge between you and WN would be OK with you, but you have no problem with the ATA pilots being stapled.

Nice.

Then we have Tanker AssClown, who appears to be a space ship pilot from a galaxy far, far away that seems to think someone is going to pay FO’s a Captains wage in our current economic environment. And thus, a new nick-name is born.

But wait, there’s more. We’ve got WN tools who think we should interview for an opportunity to fly our airplanes on our routes, all done on the bottom of your list.

How do I phrase this and maintain political correctness?

I’ve got it:

Please feel free to conduct a thorough interview of my sphincter at you earliest convenience.

The ALPA pilots of ATA request only fair treatment. This is the intent of the Allegheny/Mohawk precedence as well as the more recent Bond/McCaskill amendment. This is the minimum we will accept, and we will expend all available ALPA resources at our disposal to ensure that this is what we receive. This is not an unreasonable position.

Tailwinds,
Dave

PS: I posted having not read the response from “In the wind”.

You are correct Sir. We are an incredibly experienced group of world-wide charter pilots who are victims of inept management. It’s really that simple and you are dead-on.

I cannot speak to Capt Seth’s wife.

I could offer my wife to the WN pilot group, but to date, my codeshare brothers have never done me any harm.

 

[Tanker Clown]

ATADave, When WN aquired Morris, they stapled them, but even though a CA was now an FO, he received the same pay until the SWA pay scales caught up. Therefore, an ATA guy could probably plan on staying at his current wage until the SWA wages were more than the current wage.

Maybe the best they should do is offer a chance at an interview.

By the way, they really aren't ATA's jets and routes if someone else buys them. Last time you sold a home, you didn't feel like you could go back in and take a shower did you?

 

[atafan]

CaptSeth, why such animosity coming out of you? What am I missing here? Seriously man, what is it you want here...

I'll just give my 2 cents worth. This is what I and many others think.

ATA was acquired by a hedge fund company and worked in accordance with Southwest senior management to dismember ATA. ATA would be stripped of our scheduled flying while charter flying will be moved to World while SWA takes our skeleton of an international airline. The hedge fund company makes a fortune with World and SWA makes a fortune by expanding internationally with ATA's backbone.

Some SWA pilots play like their airline had nothing to do with our rape and pillage, possibly offering us to be stapled or trashed. You don't feel any remorse or obligation to treat others the way you want to be treated? Karma is a funny thing.

You can't believe why ATA pilots might be just a little upset, give me a break! SWA with their hedge fund buddies raped and destroyed this pilot group and expect us just to bend over and take whatever deal that your management and SWAPA offers us with a smile?

Just remember you need and OPERATING certificate to be able to utilize our operating authority.

 

[OK3]

Dave at al,

I like all the ATA pilots that I have met on our jump seats. I think you have a great group of guys who have gotten a bad deal. The question in my mind is this. What do the SWA guys gain if we were to buy ATA and integrate the pilots? It seems like a junior schedule at SWA is better than a senior one at ATA. So if you were pay protected and placed on the bottom of the list is that unfair? Fair and equitable is the language in the bill. What does that mean to you? From my perspective as a mid level FO all I do is lose if ATA guys get placed above me in an integration. I have nothing to gain in this case. I really don't mean to flame. Its hard to express that in text only.

 

[atafan]

I have nothing to gain in this case.

Here's what you gain.

SWA and your hedge fund company buddies have already trashed most of ATA. SWA would probably only take a few hundred pilots anyway. The few hundred pilots SWA would take along with our worldwide operating authority would mean thousands of new pilots jobs at SWA while SWA expands internationally.

Please understand, SWA would not be buying just a hand full of airplanes to fly to Hawaii, they would be buying the operating authority to operate everywhere and anywhere in the world. How many new SWA pilot captains would this create? Don't think short term, think big, don't you think that is exactly how your management is thinking?

 

[Whine Lover]

Ladies (and Gentlemen ),

Why don't we ALL just wait and see what happens, instead of hurling feces around over something that hasn't even occured yet?

With the attitude that I'm seeing here (on both sides) SWA management might just decide this won't work.....And, that would be BAD for both ATA and SWA.

"Everybody, smile on your brother, let's get together and try to love one and other....right now."

Kumbay-Frickin'-Ya,


YKW