SWA/ATA revisited

[PCL_128]

In this case, the lesser of the evils is to combat the whipsaw in future contracts and stay separate. In this case, it would be far more ugly to try and merge the groups because of massive displacements and WA and NApilots would end up on the street. Think about it, 20 some airplanes will probably be leaving ATA and you want to have those pilots to displace pilots at World and North American?

At World, the consensus seems to be that most of us are against integration.....and for good reason.

Not to mention that WO and NA are Teamsters and ATA is ALPA. It would surely be too much of a mess.

There are ways to structure an integration that would mitigate your concerns. In any case, a single group is always preferable to three disparate groups bidding against each other. As a former member of the Red Tail whipsaw, I speak from experience.

 

[greenbayfan]

You have no idea what you're talking about. Year 1 Captain's pay on the 10 was 141hr and now it is 145hr as of this month. For years 1 through 9, ATA's DC-10 Captain's pay is well behind World's and they finally reach parity at 148hr in year 10.

I guarantee there isn't a DC-10 Capt. at ATA that has been with the company for less than 12 years, so you arguement about pay for years 1-9 are completely mute. Secondly, if EVERYONE is on reserve at World, you have a valid point that World pilots get an extra hour a month guarantee, and since I have never seen any of your lines and don't know what your average line is built to, all I can go by is your screwed up 65 hour guarantee for line holders, which means on a monthly basis, if your lines don't exceed 65 hours, you are getting paid less monthly than the ATA guys....either way, your post about GAL giving World additional DC-10's because of it being a superior operation is ridiculous.

 

[Dan Roman]

That then shows either a lack of initiative, motivation, or brains. Or maybe a combination of all three. When I was a teenager, I cut grass in the summer for money. While the job was rewarding in it's own way, I always wanted to do better. I guess that's where you and I differ.

WOW! That has to be one of the most ignorant postings I have ever seen. I have friends at ATA and they really like working there. It's a unique environment and maybe not for everyone, but a lot of pilots like the adventure of flying all over the world versus the same routes over and over. Not disparaging anyones choices, different strokes for different folks. These guys are a class act and some of the better aviators in the business.
Tanker Clown, I think I read somewere you said you were grounded do to a cancer scare? If that is so, you've got to change your thoughts dude or you're going to make yourself sick again, there is a definite connection between your attitude and your health. You seem to do nothing but attack people on here and are bitter because you are not flying? If you don't stop worrying about every other pilots choices on here you are risking your health big time, stop spending all your time attacking people and do something productive, it will do wonders for your health.

 

[greenbayfan]

This thread was born out of the posting that SWA was looking at ATA scheduled service again, so I'll try and get it back on track.>>>

First of all, it is way too early to hear anyone talk about integration, since the initial post was just what somebody heard from somebody else, nothing more. Right away ATA guys start jumping the gun talking about integration....just relax and see where this all goes before you start figuring out where you think you should fall in SWA's seniority list.

Secondly, let's be real here, SWA already took everything they could ever want from ATA...period. Their $40mil got them more gates at MDW (blocking competition from getting the gates as well), took ATA off of most competeing routes out of MDW (allowing increased fares on those routes) and even got them a nice hangar. That $40 mil was paid back to SWA in one form or another in about a year. So, what does ATA have left? Seriously? If SWA wants to go international there are plenty better airlines to pick from than ATA, we all know that and so do their pilots. Bottom line is that ATA has no value so why would SWA want to pay something for nothing? ATA isn't even on the top of the DOD's list of airlines right now (because of reliability), so why would SWA trust their reliability?

 

[WabiSabi]

and since I have never seen any of your lines and don't know what your average line is built to, all I can go by is your screwed up 65 hour guarantee for line holders,

Translation; "I have no idea what what it is like to work for World so I'll just talk out of my ass." You don't know the half of it. There are plenty of pilots at World making a killing....., even FO's and FE's i.e. some very sweet rules in regard to reserve. Given that you called all the pilots at World whores makes it a waste of time to explain it to you.

which means on a monthly basis, if your lines don't exceed 65 hours, you are getting paid less monthly than the ATA guys

Again, your reasoning (or lack thereof) is flawed.....especially considering that you have zero knowledge of our lines and work rules.

either way, your post about GAL giving World additional DC-10's because of it being a superior operation is ridiculous.

Actually, World is a much better managed airline than ATA, even ATA pilots will tell you that their management sucks. Like I said, which airline is turning a profit and which hasn't for several years even when every other sched was in the black?

BTW ATA pilots, I am not implying that one pilot group is better than the other.

What's your problem? Did you get turned down by World and ATA at one time or another? Whatever you bitter ignoramus.

 

[greenbayfan]

What's your problem. Did you get turned down by World and ATA? Whatever you ignoramus.

Trust me, if I had to work at World or ATA let alone be turned down by them I would consider my aviation career a total failure....

 

[WabiSabi]

Trust me, if I had to work at World or ATA let alone be turned down by them I would consider my aviation career a total failure....

I bet you're a joy to fly with.

Add my poop don't stink and misplaced arrogance to the list.

 

[waka]

Trust me, if I had to work at World or ATA let alone be turned down by them I would consider my aviation career a total failure....

please enlighten us as to your airline and seat because someday and I want to grow up and be just like you! uke:

i certainly wouldn't want to have a failed aviation career like all of those miserable losers at ATA or World.



dude,:smash: to make the dumb ass generalizations that you made in this thread means you must have some kind of problem with low self-esteem. better voluntarily surrender your medical until you can get your psych issues worked out!:laugh:

 

[greenbayfan]

Just was being honest, if it works for you working for them, that's cool, to each his own...

 

[Tanker Clown]

I'm pretty sure that when people get into aviation it isn't their dream to be a CRJ CA Mesa....or an ATA (insert seat and equipment here). Let's call a spade a spade...or in this case a stepping stone a stepping stone.

 

[737 Pylt]

I'm pretty sure that when people get into aviation it isn't their dream to be a CRJ CA Mesa....or an ATA (insert seat and equipment here). Let's call a spade a spade...or in this case a stepping stone a stepping stone.

You're right, I bet when you got into the air force, you didn't expect to be serving coffee to the colonel for the next 20 years. :laugh: :laugh:
But you'll at least have a pension!

737

 

[Tanker Clown]

Pension. Didn't Delta used to have one of those?

 

[RedDogC130]

Pension. Didn't Delta used to have one of those?

Your turing into JKE40 something.... quit trying to pick a fight.

 

[atafan]

greenbayfan and Tanker Clown both added to my ignore list.

Life is good!

 

[Whine Lover]

I have a picture sitting on my bookshelf.

It is of a 5 year old Boy who has just taken a ride in a Stearman at the Kalamazoo County Fair in 1963.

He sat on a box, in the front seat, and remembers vividly watching the right main as it left the grass below it that day, spinning in the slipstream.

He saw Jet Pilots in their Uniforms when the Family dropped Dad off for yet another International Business trip.

He fought against the Odds of color-blindness, delinquency, personal loss, etc. to become a "Pilot".

And he achieved more than many ever thought possible.

The horrible end to that little Story is this:

I was that 5 year old Boy. I have enjoyed all that has transpired between that first airplane ride, and the many years since.

I have achieved everything I have ever desired in this Career, and have been Truly Blessed over the last 20 years of Airline Flying. Thank You Lord.

When I read the things above, I am wholly saddened.

As an Individual, and a Human Being. Let alone as a "Pilot".

God Speed to ALL of you.

But, this Career/Passion/Profession has DESCENDED into something I no longer wish to be a part of.

And THAT...Is heartbreaking.


MKR

 

[greenbayfan]

I hear ya MKR...

 

[vtwo]

I have a picture sitting on my bookshelf.

It is of a 5 year old Boy who has just taken a ride in a Stearman at the Kalamazoo County Fair in 1963.

He sat on a box, in the front seat, and remembers vividly watching the right main as it left the grass below it that day, spinning in the slipstream.

He saw Jet Pilots in their Uniforms when the Family dropped Dad off for yet another International Business trip.

He fought against the Odds of color-blindness, delinquency, personal loss, etc. to become a "Pilot".

And he achieved more than many ever thought possible.

The horrible end to that little Story is this:

I was that 5 year old Boy. I have enjoyed all that has transpired between that first airplane ride, and the many years since.

I have achieved everything I have ever desired in this Career, and have been Truly Blessed over the last 20 years of Airline Flying. Thank You Lord.

When I read the things above, I am wholly saddened.

As an Individual, and a Human Being. Let alone as a "Pilot".

God Speed to ALL of you.

But, this Career/Passion/Profession has DESCENDED into something I no longer wish to be a part of.

And THAT...Is heartbreaking.


MKR

however it was pretty funny when we both showed up in MKE in different limo's while Stinky rode the bus.
MKR go fix your spice rack now

 

[Pickle]

I have a picture sitting on my bookshelf.

It is of a 5 year old Boy who has just taken a ride in a Stearman at the Kalamazoo County Fair in 1963.

He sat on a box, in the front seat, and remembers vividly watching the right main as it left the grass below it that day, spinning in the slipstream.

He saw Jet Pilots in their Uniforms when the Family dropped Dad off for yet another International Business trip.

He fought against the Odds of color-blindness, delinquency, personal loss, etc. to become a "Pilot".

And he achieved more than many ever thought possible.

The horrible end to that little Story is this:

I was that 5 year old Boy. I have enjoyed all that has transpired between that first airplane ride, and the many years since.

I have achieved everything I have ever desired in this Career, and have been Truly Blessed over the last 20 years of Airline Flying. Thank You Lord.

When I read the things above, I am wholly saddened.

As an Individual, and a Human Being. Let alone as a "Pilot".

God Speed to ALL of you.

But, this Career/Passion/Profession has DESCENDED into something I no longer wish to be a part of.

And THAT...Is heartbreaking.


MKR

You didn't sign it "YKW".

How am I supposed to know "WYA" if you don't use "YKW"?????

 

[Esprit]

Tankerclown and Greenbay both are complete JkA$ses. Agreed?

ESPRIT

I agree with MKR. And this thread proves it.

 

[Pickle]

A single bargaining agent would be better for everyone involved. You'll be dealing with a massive whipsaw for the rest of your career without it.

For those who don't think it is happening, or is not going to happen, it has.

There has been flying moved from ATA to NAA.

ATA and NAA people on here will know what it is, if the rest of you don't know what it is, that's fine because it is our problem not yours.

 

[JJET44]

Ahhhhh.....................yup!

 

[Tristar]

I've read this thread with a measure of disbelief and sadness. I'm not even going to attempt to respond to most of this, but I will add just one or two things:

I'm pretty sure that when people get into aviation it isn't their dream to be a CRJ CA Mesa....or an ATA (insert seat and equipment here). Let's call a spade a spade...or in this case a stepping stone a stepping stone.

Pretty true. However, as has already been alluded to, many of us stopped in here and found the flying and above all our coworkers to be of such high caliber that we were compelled to stay. Many of us even envisioned ourselves retiring from ATA. It wasn't what a legacy carrier was in their heyday, for many of us it was far better in many ways.

As to the comment that if the shoe was on the other foot, I simply must disagree. I've had these discussions many times over the years with numerous ATA pilots, and I honestly cannot recall a single one who wanted to do anything other than what would be deemed "fair and equitable." Can we argue about exactly what "fair and equitable" is? Of course. And darn near all of us (excluding those who choose to argue for arguements sake) can also recognize what isn't.

Along those same lines, I am certain (at least as certain as anyone can be guessing another's actions) that a good number of ATA pilots would pass on the chance to go to WN. Not out of bitterness or spite, but simply because that sort of flying isn't their thing. By the same token, a number would jump at the opportunity simply for the stability.

Personally, I just want to have a job. I'd like to still be flying a widebody around the world, but I'd also like to make a living wage at it and be home more the a couple days a month. I'm afraid I"ll be doing none of the above very soon.

Finally, Tanker Clown. Words escape me to express the utter contempt I have for you. You have no dog in the fight, yet come off with the most off kilter, uninformed, moronic garbage I've had the misfortune to read recently (and that's saying something considering it's election season). If you were capable of it, you should be ashamed. However, having subjected myself to nine pages of your drivel, I must conclude you are most likely utterly devoid of any intrinsic moral compass. As such, any attempt to chastise you serves not to correct or enlighten you, but simply to serve as a warning buoy to others navigating in your presence.

MKR - I knew you were real, and well said.

 

[johnsonrod]

I've read this thread with a measure of disbelief and sadness. I'm not even going to attempt to respond to most of this, but I will add just one or two things:



Pretty true. However, as has already been alluded to, many of us stopped in here and found the flying and above all our coworkers to be of such high caliber that we were compelled to stay. Many of us even envisioned ourselves retiring from ATA. It wasn't what a legacy carrier was in their heyday, for many of us it was far better in many ways.

As to the comment that if the shoe was on the other foot, I simply must disagree. I've had these discussions many times over the years with numerous ATA pilots, and I honestly cannot recall a single one who wanted to do anything other than what would be deemed "fair and equitable." Can we argue about exactly what "fair and equitable" is? Of course. And darn near all of us (excluding those who choose to argue for arguements sake) can also recognize what isn't.

Along those same lines, I am certain (at least as certain as anyone can be guessing another's actions) that a good number of ATA pilots would pass on the chance to go to WN. Not out of bitterness or spite, but simply because that sort of flying isn't their thing. By the same token, a number would jump at the opportunity simply for the stability.

Personally, I just want to have a job. I'd like to still be flying a widebody around the world, but I'd also like to make a living wage at it and be home more the a couple days a month. I'm afraid I"ll be doing none of the above very soon.

Finally, Tanker Clown. Words escape me to express the utter contempt I have for you. You have no dog in the fight, yet come off with the most off kilter, uninformed, moronic garbage I've had the misfortune to read recently (and that's saying something considering it's election season). If you were capable of it, you should be ashamed. However, having subjected myself to nine pages of your drivel, I must conclude you are most likely utterly devoid of any intrinsic moral compass. As such, any attempt to chastise you serves not to correct or enlighten you, but simply to serve as a warning buoy to others navigating in your presence.

MKR - I knew you were real, and well said.

Great post. All I can say is many of us wish you guys at ATA luck as things shake out. I agree that it would be hard to go from one type of flying to another - hopefully people can find jobs they like that don't require too much of a step back in terms of pay. Good luck.

P.S. Don't take Tanker Clown too seriously. He is a desk surfer who puts others down so that he can feel better about himself. That's lame.

 

[JJET44]

Tanker

Finally, Tanker Clown. Words escape me to express the utter contempt I have for you. You have no dog in the fight, yet come off with the most off kilter, uninformed, moronic garbage I've had the misfortune to read recently (and that's saying something considering it's election season). If you were capable of it, you should be ashamed. However, having subjected myself to nine pages of your drivel, I must conclude you are most likely utterly devoid of any intrinsic moral compass. As such, any attempt to chastise you serves not to correct or enlighten you, but simply to serve as a warning buoy to others navigating in your presence.

Well said Tristar!!

Tanker,
I think Hillary could use you on her campaign.

 

[FlyinGuy]

I am not sure why you guys even acknowledge Tanker clown. He is not interested in discussing anything...just seeing how many of you will play his little game.

 

[Snapshot]

Trust me, if I had to work at World or ATA let alone be turned down by them I would consider my aviation career a total failure....

Consider any hope of not being an A$$hole a total failure after this statement. Trust me, no matter what you drive or how much money you have, NO ONE envies you.

 

[Whine Lover]

( Geez...Is it even worth my Time....?)

( Well, NO it really isn't.)

Let me give you a quick perspective.

I am 49. I will be retiring this year.

1) Because ATA is going Under.

2) Because I "planned" to retire at 50.

3) Because this Industry is PATHETIC.

My College Room-Mates who are at UsAir / AWA / Delta / American / United....ETC. are NOT EVEN QUALIFIED to APPLY at a JetBlue, an AirTran etc. because they are 15-20 year F/O's and have the same "178 Hours" of PIC Multi-Piston that we ALL had 20 years ago.

I have done EVERYTHING I came to this Career to do...And, strangely, I accomplished it at a Carrier I had never heard of. And believe me, this place is Idiotville. So, let's not talk about " My Airline is better..." I concede. But, "better" HOW?

Folks, They are all "Klown-Shows". And I don't give a Flying Fornication what is painted on the side of your Bird...or How many buttons you have on your "Klown Jacket". You are Puppets who work for Klowns. END of
STORY,

I have had an ABSOLUTE BLAST over the last 20 years, turned down the NWA's etc. and in the meantime, wound up with Flight Time that will get me hired ANYWHERE. All of this while earning equal to, or more than, ( in the Long Run ) my contemporarys, and having a Quality of Life Second To None.

Go figure...

You Wanna' make God laugh?

Go ahead and make some "Plans".

I thank Him for EVERY DAY that it didn't turn out my way....American, United, etc.

Whatever. Thank You Lord.

WHO KNEW?

MKR

P.S. - AND...Even WITH this Flight Time / Qualifications....I will remove myself from this Industry. IT IS BENEATH ME.

 

[Esprit]

Don't you know this guy (greenbayfan)? He's that kid in highschool that had to put everyone else down in order to build himself up. He would say these things behind their backs (from the safety of a keyboard here) because he knew fair well that he would get clocked if he said it to their face.

What a wussy.

ESPRIT

 

[bold_tiger9]

All of this pilot integration stuff could be moot if SWA (or anyone else for that matter) bought only the operating certificate without other assets. This has been done in the past by other airlines.

 

[vtwo]

All of this pilot integration stuff could be moot if SWA (or anyone else for that matter) bought only the operating certificate without other assets. This has been done in the past by other airlines.

The operating cert. includes ETOPS, and world wide authority. MNPS, RVSM ect..to keep that intact a buyer would have to take, certified airplanes, certified training program, certified maint program, and the dispatch program as well. along with those programs mentioned above key people have to go with that as well to over see each dept. so some pilots, dispatchers, flight attendants, fleet managers, maint head's ect.

So as you can see The ATA certificate is really not worth much with out the whole shebang.