SWA/ATA codeshare ending?

[7S3W7A]

The one question I have for SWA crews in respect to the codeshare:

Why don't you include information about the codeshare to you passengers in PA announcements?

It's kinda like the hot chick and the fat chick hanging out together. The hot chick doesn't really want the fat chick around when important people can see. She tends to lower her head a little hoping no one notices they are together. The fat chick always wants to be seen with the hot chick as it may make her look less ugly and fat.

 

[SWA/FO]

Is this a re-run? Southwest management makes decisions for SWA. Name 1 company out there that is watching out for the other guy? Just name 1.

Sorry about your company....

ATA has lots of great folks - that is a fact. We didn't make business decisions for George & Co... they did that themselves.

 

[Jim Smyth]

Glad to see I am not the only one at ATA that dosen't subscribe to this whole "SWA saves ATA BS." I would much rather take a dagger to the heart and be done with it rather than SWA slowly slowly bleeding us dry. There is a reason why we don't overlap the scheduled service routes: SWA took them all. With exception to the routes to airports who require slots. Don't worry we'll keep paying for those at your benefit.

The one question I have for SWA crews in respect to the codeshare:

Why don't you include information about the codeshare to you passengers in PA announcements? Every SWA flight I have been on dosen't say a word. However, we are required to make PA's on all flights. Excluding military charter.

The rich keep getting richer and the poorer keep getting poorer.

Enjoy!

I know that the management types at Southwest do hold ATA in very high regards and this was way before you guys started having problems. I am not sure why we don't mention the code share agreement with ATA and am going to follow that up internally. The only thing I get as a Pilot is in my paperwork packet thats tells me its a code share flight. From now on I will be mentioning the code share when I do my PA address on all of those flights. You are correct and it is wrong if we are not doing it also. Now with that being said I am not sure if the Flight attendants make any announcements but will find that out too. I do wish you guys the best and have some friends there at ATA too.

 

[TristarCostar]

Jim Smyth,

Thank you for your time with that. I really appreciate it. I certainly will agree with ALL on this thread that ATA mgmt. screwed things up LONG before SWA ever came knocking on the door. George and Company were a total letdown to the employee group. However the letdowns continue with an ex SWA manager in place as CEO of ATA. We have gone from 60+ airframes to 29 as of today. 300+ on furlough (thats ALOT for us). Sometimes chapter 7 may have felt better than this.

90% of the time I am on a SWA flight is for positioning somewhere in the States for an overseas venture. Maybe its just the luck of the draw for the flights that I have been on, but no mention of the codeshare. Anytime I have been on a CASS jumpseat (thank you) for the rides, the Captain shows me on the paperwork that the flight is a codeshare deal.

Just seems awfully one sided from the seats and positions we at ATA sit in.

Respectfully

TristarCostar

 

[ABOVE ME]

All a shame, the employees at ATA took a good screwing. Things there went to hell so fast. AWA would have been a good deal...DAM!!! ATA was an Awesome place to work, great trips, great people, really could make you sit down and cry. Great memorys of that place...............fun fun fun, no wonder it couldnt last longer.

 

[atafan]

Sometimes chapter 7 may have felt better than this.

Friends, I have been through Chapter 7 more than once and believe me life at ATA today is much better than Chapter 7. Hope, there is still hope and a paycheck, albeit much smaller.

Use this time to find other employement or enjoy the ride.

 

[Jim Smyth]

90% of the time I am on a SWA flight is for positioning somewhere in the States for an overseas venture. Maybe its just the luck of the draw for the flights that I have been on, but no mention of the codeshare. Anytime I have been on a CASS jumpseat (thank you) for the rides, the Captain shows me on the paperwork that the flight is a codeshare deal.

Just seems awfully one sided from the seats and positions we at ATA sit in.

Respectfully

TristarCostar

I know this is lame and shouldnt be an excuse but I believe that we once code shared with Iceland Air (dont know if we still do or not) and I think it was like one flight a week out of BWI many years ago. This code share stuff is new for us and I am not sure if this has ever been brought up before. I have never heard any talk about mentioning the code share in the PA announcement and always thought it would have been a function of marketing/advertising/reservations. But since you brought it up it does make allot of sense to do it on the Airplane since you have a captive audiance. I will talk to the Cheifs next week when I go back in the office and also look into our inflight training in Chicago to see what they can tell me about it. I do think it deffinately needs to go both ways.

 

[Jim Smyth]

atafan, I see the DC-9 type rating. You an old Midway guy?

 

[scoreboard]

First of all, no you don't feel our pain. So don't try to commiserate with us.

Second, as far as ATA ceasing to exist without SWA's financing. Air Tran was (brutally) honest with us about their intentions. They told us straight up that they wanted us to fly MDW routes for them until they could get spooled up enough to take over and then it was "adios" to ATA in MDW and "adios" to lots of jobs. But they were up front about it. The America West deal would have been great, but as has been said before, that financing just somehow disappeared at the last minute.

In comes SWA, looking like some kind of knight in shining armor, saying that there will be this code share and everything will be peachy keen when in fact that was never the intention. This code share isn't growing. 2x day LGA-HOU begins, yes, but 2x day MDW-SFO ends.

Telling us that we still have a job and a seniority number and it is just business may help you sleep at night, but it doesn't do any good for those of us directly involved.

I'm more than happy to bite that hand, but it isn't feeding me. What it is doing does start with "f" and end in "ing" and have the same amount of letters as "feeding". Just replace "eed" with "uck" and you will see what I am getting at.

Just don't try to act all magnanimous and pat yourselves on the back about how you "feel our pain". You don't feel squat. Me and almost 200 other pilots lost over 50% of our pay and our captains seats. Over 300 pilots have lost their jobs and 100% of their pay. That is just the pilot group. DId you know that ATA has lost over 50% of it's employees since CH11?? We used to have over 8,000 employees, now we are less than 4,000.

And don't talk to me on the employee bus in MDW either. Just keep ignoring me and pretending you don't see me sitting right there across from you. So sorry to offend you with my bottom feeder code sharing self.

OK, so i reread my post, maybe a little oficious. But you are being disingenuous to say the least. I'm not patting anyones back least my own, just laying out the facts. This is business, not welfare.

You admit you agree with me, the AWA deal dried up, AirTran would have bleed you until they dropped you like a hot potato. We come along with a plan and now we are the bad guy?

I thought this code share would be a great thing for you guys. This is business. That great plan went by the wayside when alot of factors out of SWA's control went south; oil, airlines not consolidating, bankruptcies allowing competitors free reign, can't find enough 737's, it goes on and on.

I'm sorry the facts sting, but ATA would be done and gone by now if not for SWA doing what they did. Because it is business, SWA will take every advantage of this deal, remember, you signed up for it.

And dude, I don't ignore anybody, if your on that bus, I and about 5000 other pilots will gladly talk to you. Stop making it seem that we are your enemy, that we are the basis for all your problems. We didn't put you in the position of seeking outside help, you guys did. No, we don't think of you as bottom feeders neither, jeesh... Attitudes like that will ensure your 4000 become zero.

 

[HalinTexas]

Our management has put this codeshare as it's primary focus. We celebrated 100 days of codeshare last spring. Nothing from SWA. We just got a really cheezy company morale boosting attempt, for lack of a better term. "5 C's" it's called. "Codeshare - make the Southwest codeshare work." "Charter" is another "c." There is no independent focus. Granted this is from our management, and it is very weak. It's a joke, really. Has to be.

We expected a lot more from Denison. IMO, we are being set up to fail.

Pardon me if I don't say thank you for "bailing" us out.

 

[atafan]

I want to apologize for some of the negative things that have been said towards SWA pilots by a few of my fellow ATA pilots.

We have had a pretty good deal at ATA, job satisfaction has always been very high and then George Mikelsons screwed the airline up and we lost our good deal. It's tough not knowing what's going to happen next when you see one thing and Gary Kelly and Denisons says another, it's easy not to trust management after what we have been through.

I and most ATA pilots don't blame SWA for any of our problems and are thankful to have at least bought some time. I am also thankful to SWA pilots for trusting their management and respecting ATA enough not to try to stop this codeshare experiment by citing scope.

I'm not naive, I know that this whole deal could go away but if it's possible it will happen working with an honorable company like SWA. No, I'm not trying to kiss my way into a SWA job, my flying career will end with this ATA gig but I will see this to the end and I am hopeful and positive.

My income has been cut more than half over the last couple of years but I'm still having a good time and still enjoy working with my ATA brothers and sisters.

P.S. the DC-9 job was at a small defunct company called JetTrain.

 

[PHXFLYR]

seems like ancient history but I think SWA outbid us (AWA) for ATA. Can anyone confirm this my memory is vague on this one?

In hindsight it might have been a better deal for ATA pilots to have been merged with awa. Atleast they would all have a seniority number instead of preferential interviews.

Would have been better for us,too. At least the pilot group at ATA was a lot more amicable to work with ,which is more than I can say for our counterparts at USAir.


PHXFLYR

 

[HalinTexas]

I am also thankful to SWA pilots for trusting their management and respecting ATA enough not to try to stop this codeshare experiment by citing scope.

But, they did exactly that, and I don't blame them. They are protecting their interests. That's why SWA dropped all interest in ownership of ATA. Their scope prohibits a codeshare partner from going into one of their cities, including those they intend to enter. Their scope restricts the codeshare to 5% of SWA's ASM's.

I don't think I've blamed any employee, even though most are stockholders. So you don't need to apologize for me, ATAFAN. You also don't need to suck up either. If there were ever be a merger/acquisition/fragmentation we'd be stapled at best anyway.

This it to all concerned. This deal was predatory in nature. American business at it's most competitive. SWA under Gary Kelly is getting tough. There are many examples of this since he began his tenure. The Wright fight is the biggest example. When ATA's employees get it through their thick skulls that SWA is not our savior, we'll all be better off. SWA is out to crush the competition or at the very least build their market share. ATA management is doing little to nothing to ensure our future beyond a shrinking codeshare and military charter. It's because of this that I don't believe ATA will be around another two years. I am one of many that are actively seeking success elsewhere (including SWA), because I know I'll be better off somewhere else even if ATA doesn't liquidate.

If I haven't made this clear. I'm not seeking aplogies from SWA employees, nor am I seeking recognition from them for our sacrifices. I am only expressing my opinions as to fact.

 

[PHXFLYR]

I feel your pain but... To be really totally honest, ATA would have ceased to exist without SWA's financing, every other deal resulted in aquisition or liquidation. You would have been shreded or closed the doors, period, with SWA you still have a job and seniority. This is just business.

SWA knows exactly what they got out of the deal, you havn't seen the end of it either.

ATA will probably still be around after we get ETOPS, just in a different form, again, your still there, still employed still have your senority. Try not to make it sound like your biting the hand thats feeding you.

OHHH PLEAaESEEEE!!!!!! You guys are in the process of doing to ATA what you did to Trans Star in the late 80's . Buy out your competitor and slowly dismantel it. Same playbook,different airline.


PHXFLYR

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

For what its worth, I only wish the best for ATA.

But SWA's history and direction does not bode well for a relationship with ATA that will be what I hoped it could be.

Many factors involved but a couple stand out, IMHO. The CEO cannot justify to SWAPA or the shareholders a permanent, profitable codeshare for ATA. He can only do it as long as its beneficial to SWA. There is risk in codeshare and, unless the culture shifts at SWA, the flying will come back to SWA down the road.


On the flip side I don't think mergers are out of the question. If it looks like other airlines will merge and hurt SWA, SWA may try to beat them to the punch. I can see a situation where ATA will be ripe for merger (buyout?) by Airtran or someone else. I'm hearing the investor group who bought ATA wants to go this route. SWA will then weigh the cost of their competitors getting a hold of ATA.


But this is all far down the road and just a blurry image in my crystal ball.

 

[HalinTexas]

For what its worth, I only wish the best for ATA.

But SWA's history and direction does not bode well for a relationship with ATA that will be what I hoped it could be.

Many factors involved but a couple stand out, IMHO. The CEO cannot justify to SWAPA or the shareholders a permanent, profitable codeshare for ATA. He can only do it as long as its beneficial to SWA. There is risk in codeshare and, unless the culture shifts at SWA, the flying will come back to SWA down the road.


On the flip side I don't think mergers are out of the question. If it looks like other airlines will merge and hurt SWA, SWA may try to beat them to the punch. I can see a situation where ATA will be ripe for merger (buyout?) by Airtran or someone else. I'm hearing the investor group who bought ATA wants to go this route. SWA will then weigh the cost of their competitors getting a hold of ATA.


But this is all far down the road and just a blurry image in my crystal ball.

I can't argue with your logic here. Matlin-Patterson is the determining factor here. I don't think they care to run an airline, but they aren't in this to lose some $150M. I think ATA will be fragmented off into a few pieces some time in the next 2 years. Assets will be spread around, but few people will go with them.

 

[TristarCostar]

ATAFAN,

I don't need anyone apologizing for me either on the forum. I am not blaming a single pilot from any property to the demise of what ATA has become. Managements on the other hand are to blame. Whatever happened to the novel idea of being a manager is to manage. Or managers have proven that they cannot and will not think on their own.

I have met Mr. Dennison twice. Both times during discussion, his cell phone rings and he answers it with Gary Kelly on the other end. Hmmmm. Once again no business plan here will ever be on our own. Who knows, maybe that is better. Look, all off the higher mgmt's have done nothing but lie in the past.

ATA was founded on charter many years ago. We have failed miserably at schedule service for years. A direct quote from Dennison by the way. So why do we continue to come up with codeshare and products that still have scheduled service? As long as we continue to do this, we will be out on the street with the doors closed before long.

ATA needs to do for themselves and stop trying to appease others, including SWA.

 

[Dane Bramage]

I apologize for some of the "arrogant-sounding" comments by my newer SWA brothers. Everyone needs to understand that a LOT of posters on FlightInfo are younger guys who recently got their first major airline job. Some of the newer SWA guys posting here have a tendency to let the "koolaid" do their talking. Not a slam on them, just factual, tangible evidence of the power of the SWA culture to instill company pride and loyalty. It usually wears off with the passage of time.

Now to my main points. A lot of SWA pilots were very concerned about the ATA codeshare. I can't say a majority because we never get a majority of pilots to care about anything at SWA, except for a contract vote. SWAPA did show concern, however, and it wasn't based on us taking advantage of ATA. We were concerned about our new flying being done by you guys.

After some delays, management said enough to appease SWAPA. Beyond that, pilots can't do anything to affect negative outcomes for ATA. SWA management is smart and well-financed. They WILL take the steps necessary to ensure profitability. They are smiling, but will cut your throat in a heartbeat, if necessary. This usually works in our favor as a company, and sometimes to our detriment as labor. Nothing has changed in this regard with Gary Kelly. Herb is a ruthless lawyer who manages to get others to do his dirty work. Bottom line: Pilots need not blame other pilots for decisions made by their management. This goes both ways.

On another note, I would be lying if I said ALL my fellow pilots have great respect and concern for other airlines and their employees. That's simply not true...at SWA or any other airline. We took the brunt of disdain during the good times, so I know there are dumba**es at every airline who place more loyalty with their management than their pilot brethren. I WILL say that the vast majority here DO care about fellow pilots in the industry, however. We all have friends at every airline, many who are suffering through this unprecedented industry low. The majority of us do not take ANY pleasure in reading the news regarding other airlines. I hope everyone understands that.

While I'm on a roll, let me also say that because of the apathy among SWA pilots the official union position on many issues may not be accurate. Most of our "official" union positions are actually the positions of the execs in power. Please don't presuppose that your SWA jumpseater is heading to D.C. to campaign against Age 60. They only got ~60 pilots industry-wide at the last big age 60 "rally." Not what I would consider significant support and participation. But that's another topic for another time.

 

[atafan]

Bottom line: Pilots need not blame other pilots for decisions made by their management. This goes both ways.

Well said!

 

[gearup5]

Don't forget ATA Connection

Aprox. 600 employees were fired,laid off, sh*t canned. 175 pilots(100%) were furloughed (touchy feely name created so you don't feel so bad) None of us are coming back.
I am not mad at WN pilots, but ATA management along with SWA management can lick my a*s. F*ck George M. and Gary K.