SWA/Airtran Process Agreement??

[Ty Webb]

Ty what good would that do? 1989 SWA is not buying AAI. 2011 SWA is buying 2011 AAI.

Career expectations. Mature company versus growing company.

 

[islandhoper]

...; sadly, you have no excuses for the sorry state of your contract, except for the recalcitrance of your management, I suppose. Happily, both of those detriments to your career will be fixed by becoming part of SWAPA. Welcome aboard!

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

So, what is the "sorry state" of our contract?

 

[ASADFW7]

This is a like a dog chasing his tail. I do not care what the new nugget of information that satisfies any one persons reasoning. We have heard it a thousand times already. Less than two weeks the process will start for real. Until then stop kicking each other in the balls, just because you know it will hurt, only to get kicked yourself in return. And if you do not have balls, and work for any other company besides Airtran or Southwest, my apologies.

 

[PapaWoody]

Ha-ha. While you're at it, let's see a comparison of SWA pay and benefits in 1989 (your 16th year) relative to AirTran in 2011 (our 16th year). Our upside, with 50 orders (33% increase over present fleet) and just scratching international markets, is much higher than a stagnant, 40 year-old carrier.

We all respect what SWA has built, but if you really want to compare us to Shuttle America/Chataqua, you're just kidding yourself, and insulting us.

I'm not comparing you to Shuttle America nor Chautaqua (sp?), nor is it my intention to insult anyone at AirTran. I'm saying in that case of one regional acquiring another regional (versus one LCC acquiring another LCC in our case), that the contractual disparities are similar, that those disparities were germane to that particular integration, and, imo, our disparities will play a part in our integration, because they are objective examples of the differences in career expectations.

As for comparing SWA pay and benefits in 1989 with your current, adjusted for inflation, I would be more than willing to take that bet. I'll work on the numbers and get back to you. Your upside, in your 16th year, was a 33% increase over your present fleet in I believe an approx. 7 year period, was probably similar to Southwests increase in their fleet size between 1989-1996. Again, I'll get back to you on the numbers.

As for comparing your 16 year old "upside" carrier to our stagnant, 40 year old carrier - well, that's where we disagree. Comparing Southwest at the 16th year has no bearing on the discussion, in fact, because we are talking about the value of a Southwest career attained in 1993 through the present to an AirTran career attained during the same time. Yes, at some point in our past we may have been at the same place as you guys (I don't think so, but could be wrong) but that is irrelevant. The assertion that I am trying to make is that throughout the existence of ValuJet/AirTran, it has always been (objectively) harder to get hired at Southwest, paid more to work for Southwest, been a more secure job environment at Southwest, been a more desirable place to work at Southwest - in essence, a more valuable career at Southwest than AirTran. Denying these facts, which are based on objective criteria, seems disingenuous and counter-productive to honest discussion of this particular integration.

When your seniority at AirTran is translated into seniority on the SWAPA master seniority list, those factors should and probably will make a difference in where it falls. To do otherwise would be unfair and inequitable to every Southwest pilot, imo. I'm glad that you respect what SWA has built, but a little respect for what SWAPA has achieved would be nice also.

Respectfully and Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[PapaWoody]

So, what is the "sorry state" of our contract?

Ok, I apologize for the statement "sorry state of your contract". After reading it, it came off as a put-down that I didn't intend. I just meant that relative to ours and the industry in general, it was on the low side.

Respectfully,
PapaWoody

 

[Ty Webb]

This is a like a dog chasing his tail. I do not care what the new nugget of information that satisfies any one persons reasoning. We have heard it a thousand times already. Less than two weeks the process will start for real. Until then stop kicking each other in the balls, just because you know it will hurt, only to get kicked yourself in return. And if you do not have balls, and work for any other company besides Airtran or Southwest, my apologies.

Agreed. Well put. Most of us respond on here when our sensibilities are offended. . . . So, the most outrageous post get a response, the reasonable ones get ignored, and only the most extreme positions get any "play" on here, unfortunately.

I'm glad that it will be the NC/MC committees settling this and not us Flightinfo folks.

Regards,
TW

 

[jball2]

Great post Ty!


I've said it twice already. A negotiated agreement will come by the end of July! Welcome to the family!

jb2

 

[elcid]

Does this mean you're gonna take a dump in my lunchbox if it goes DOH or better?

Nope, not at all. I'll buy you a beer and eat crow. I'll buy you a beer regardless, and welcome you to the best airline I think anyone could hope to work for. I don't think the eating crow part is gonna happen though, fwiw.

 

[waveflyer]

Agreed. Well put. Most of us respond on here when our sensibilities are offended. . . . So, the most outrageous post get a response, the reasonable ones get ignored, and only the most extreme positions get any "play" on here, unfortunately.

I'm glad that it will be the NC/MC committees settling this and not us Flightinfo folks.

Regards,
TW

I think this is the best assessment of FI and this SLI debate I've seen.
Reality will be that most of us will only argue about who's buying the next round!

 

[Ty Webb]

I think this is the best assessment of FI and this SLI debate I've seen.
Reality will be that most of us will only argue about who's buying the next round!

Thanks. I see glimmers of hope throughout this that leads me to believe that we will all end up with something we can live with. I know for certain that a pleasant working environment is more important than money or anything else, and it is my sincere hope that we get there together.

I also know for certain that no amount of money and no seniority number would be worth going through what those folks at USAir/America West are going through (no disrespect to those folks intended).

I'm definitely looking forward to us all being one team. We have a whole lot more in common than we realize.

Regards,
TW

PS., Please disregard the post where I said a "40 year-old stagnant carrier". That sounds more like a layover gone bad. . . . . really bad!

 

[jonjuan]

Career expectations. Mature company versus growing company.

And his name was B I N G O. Get it, WOODY?

 

[MINIME]

[
Regards,
TW

PS., Please disregard the post where I said a "40 year-old stagnant carrier". That sounds more like a layover gone bad. . . . . really bad! [/QUOTE]

Oh man! My stomach hurts I laughed so hard.

Cmmon TY, in my neck of the woods, 40 is young and barely broken in.

 

[PapaWoody]

And his name was B I N G O. Get it, WOODY?

Maybe, maybe not. One, if you think that Southwest had no growth opportunities available to it and that it would not grow over the next decade based upon the last two years, then you have disregarded the history of this company. Near international (Canada, Caribbean, Mexico, South America, etc.) was not a stretch, and regardless of the statements made by our CEO to smooth the stockholder approval of this deal, Southwest would have continued to grow in the future, with or without AirTran. And B , even though I am willing to acknowledge that average upgrade times at AirTran were probably going to be lower over the next decade, I would expect you to acknowledge that an upgrade at AirTran was worth about the same as being a First Officer at SWA; which particular window you look out, notwithstanding. Not a judgment, just basing an observation on objective standards of comparison.

Respectfully,
PapaWoody

 

[madjack]

Ty said: "I agree 100%, except I believe you'll find the growth WILL be there. We will be saving a lot in overlap, plus providing our pax with 35 more of your destinations, plus providing your pax with 35 more of ours!

Throw in the fact that we have barely scratched the surface, in regards to the near-international destinations; I think we will see that growth."

You will see growth when we (SWA/AAI) reach 15% ROIC, that is the metric GK is stating will trigger growth.

 

[Lear70]

This is a like a dog chasing his tail. I do not care what the new nugget of information that satisfies any one persons reasoning. We have heard it a thousand times already. Less than two weeks the process will start for real. Until then stop kicking each other in the balls, just because you know it will hurt, only to get kicked yourself in return. And if you do not have balls, and work for any other company besides Airtran or Southwest, my apologies.

Well-said... especially the balls comment. lol

 

[ivauir]

Apparently your reading comprehension isn't too good. The "job security coming from fuel hedges" I mentioned was in response to the dude who said he/she was hired at swa in 2003. The 25-30+ year Captains at that point could give a xxxx. Some folks are slower than others. Sorry man.

Classy response and the continuation of an invalid argument.

The foundation for job security at Southwest Airlines is profitability, debt to equity, and culture. Fuel hedging isn't financial cold fusion; it doesn't generate money for nothing. It uses current profitability to control future costs.

I didn't mention when I was hired by the way.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

I agree 100%, except I believe you'll find the growth WILL be there. We will be saving a lot in overlap, plus providing our pax with 35 more of your destinations, plus providing your pax with 35 more of ours!

Throw in the fact that we have barely scratched the surface, in regards to the near-international destinations; I think we will see that growth.

Ty hope you're right but fear you are wrong. Gary has stated that the fleet will not be added to until there is a 15 percent ROIC. He is very conservative so on this I take him at his word. Minus some large landscape changing event you can't get there from here at $115 oil and present ticket prices. You will see redeployment out of low yield markets toward higher yield markets. You will most likely see the 717s in the desert replacing some of the 737 classics. The overlap will be used to connect the networks. Besides if there were to be measurable growth where would the airframes come from? Even considering the combined orders from Boeing that is not that much growth percentage wise and thats if zero airframes are retired. We will be at no more than the present 684 combined airframes for a very long time to come.

 

[Lonestar]

Ha-ha. While you're at it, let's see a comparison of SWA pay and benefits in 1989 (your 16th year) relative to AirTran in 2011 (our 16th year).

Ty, I find it interesting that you chose to make a comparison in 1989. So let's do just that.

In 1989, while SWA pilots were flying for a good wage (and making plenty more in profit sharing and stock options), several hundred future AirTran pilots were crossing a line at Eastern. They were making the statement to the rest of the industry that they will gladly stab their brothers in the back for their own gain. (That's likely why your management simply yawned at your 98% strike vote!)

And about that gain. They gained employement at an airline run by the very Eastern management they sold out for. Eventually, one of the worst (an Eastern 'street captain', or replacement player) was elected as your union's president. In that position, he helped negotiate the first of several sub-standard contracts. That is until the announcement of SWA's intent to acquire AAI. What a proud history indeed.

 

[Lonestar]

Worth noting, that particular ex-Eastern pilot did move on to better thing. Recently, he was caught serving alchoholic beverages to a flight attendant's under-age daughter. Very classy!

 

[Ty Webb]

You will most likely see the 717s in the desert replacing some of the 737 classics.

Not sure what you mean here. Usually, when people say "in the desert" it means mothballed. 717 uses less fuel than 737NG and the leases must be paid whether they fly or not. Given that the 717 costs 20% less to operate, they're not likely to be parked, so you must mean PHX or LAS based?

The overlap will be used to connect the networks.

I'm talking ground service equipment and personnel, gates, maintenance, etc, plus cross-selling destinations. For example, Pensacola to Orange County, or Lubbock to San Juan, PR.

Besides if there were to be measurable growth where would the airframes come from? Even considering the combined orders from Boeing that is not that much growth percentage wise and thats if zero airframes are retired. We will be at no more than the present 684 combined airframes for a very long time to come.

There are (or were) a few dozen 717's down in Mehico that Boeing wanted us to find a home for. . . . . not sure what Boeing's 737 order book looks like right now or what is on the open market.

Ty's a bidnessman, but my business isn't the airline business . . . . . I'd be interested to hear what some other folks think.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Not sure what you mean here. Usually, when people say "in the desert" it means mothballed. 717 uses less fuel than 737NG and the leases must be paid whether they fly or not. Given that the 717 costs 20% less to operate, they're not likely to be parked, so you must mean PHX or LAS based?


I'm talking ground service equipment and personnel, gates, maintenance, etc, plus cross-selling destinations. For example, Pensacola to Orange County, or Lubbock to San Juan, PR.

There are (or were) a few dozen 717's down in Mehico that Boeing wanted us to find a home for. . . . . not sure what Boeing's 737 order book looks like right now or what is on the open market.

Last I heard there were no NG airplanes on the market right now. There was a rumor of a 25 or so more airplanes from Virgin Blue but even if thats true they will most likely be used as replacement airframes not growth airframes. Boeing is backlogged for years on 737 production.


Ty's a bidnessman, but my business isn't the airline business . . . . . I'd be interested to hear what some other folks think.

I was refering to the Midwest 717s that were supposed to be sent to Mexicana. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that they are now mothballed and in the desert. What I meant was that I think that those 717s will replace some of the 737 classics.
I understood what you meant by connecting the networks. I think that the fleet capacity to accomplish this will come out of the route overlap and capacity pulled from less profitable markets
SWA paid $1 billion for AAI. Ghetto went to public school in Indiana but according to my math to hit the 15 percent AAI would have to make 150,000,000 per year to start to justify growth. SWA needs to make roughly $1 Billion per year per that metric to justify growth. In the present market I just don't see us even combined approaching those numbers.

 

[Ty Webb]

I was refering to the Midwest 717s that were supposed to be sent to Mexicana. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that they are now mothballed and in the desert. What I meant was that I think that those 717s will replace some of the 737 classics.

I see that now. Coffee hadn't kicked in yet. I suppose that is certainly a possibility, but what would that mean for the -800's that were going to be replacements for -300's and -500's?

I understood what you meant by connecting the networks. I think that the fleet capacity to accomplish this will come out of the route overlap and capacity pulled from less profitable markets

Also a possibility . . . I don't know enough about the load factors, ASM's, RASM's etc to really know for certain. I do know that our planes are mostly full, as are yours, and it stands to reason that by "connecting the dots" that there will be new point-to-points that weren't supportable before.

SWA paid $1 billion for AAI. Ghetto went to public school in Indiana but according to my math to hit the 15 percent AAI would have to make 150,000,000 per year to start to justify growth. SWA needs to make roughly $1 Billion per year per that metric to justify growth. In the present market I just don't see us even combined approaching those numbers.

Not to sound like Clinton, but I guess that would depend on the definition of "growth". For example, right now, SWA is hiring 200-400 pilots this year. Is that growth? If you're the bottom guy, or the guy on the cusp of upgrade, it is.

Again, I don't know all the answers, and perhaps I am being overly optimistic, but I am very enthusiastic about the possibilities. I think we all know that being part of a growing airline is a great feeling. I hope everyone gets to experience it, especially the guys hired in the last 4 or 5 years that have been on the bottom.

 

[Monkey Face]

Ty, I find it interesting that you chose to make a comparison in 1989. So let's do just that.

In 1989, while SWA pilots were flying for a good wage (and making plenty more in profit sharing and stock options)

Um, let's see, the stock options started with the 1994 contract.

 

[canyonblue]

Just curious Gup, what made you buy the type and go to WN before they "made real money"?

Heck, let me answer that one for me...it was Southwest!

Why do people go to the Playboy Mansion? Southwest is the MOST coveted Airline to work for in the WORLD. Do you notice just how many Legacy pilots flock to any Southwest thread, they can't even find this much excitement at their own Airline, and they want to be a part of it. No other Airline can generate the amount of Forum space that is equal to Southwest. It is, and will continue to be, a place that everyone wants to be a part of.

 

[slaquer5]

Heck, let me answer that one for me...it was Southwest!

Why do people go to the Playboy Mansion? Southwest is the MOST coveted Airline to work for in the WORLD. Do you notice just how many Legacy pilots flock to any Southwest thread, they can't even find this much excitement at their own Airline, and they want to be a part of it. No other Airline can generate the amount of Forum space that is equal to Southwest. It is, and will continue to be, a place that everyone wants to be a part of.

Could not have been said better.

 

[dh82dvr]

Southwest is the MOST coveted Airline to work for in the WORLD.

Pretty bold statement right there!

I would agree that SWA holds that position in this country, but for the rest of the world?

 

[MINIME]

Ty, I find it interesting that you chose to make a comparison in 1989. So let's do just that.

In 1989, while SWA pilots were flying for a good wage (and making plenty more in profit sharing and stock options), several hundred future AirTran pilots were crossing a line at Eastern. They were making the statement to the rest of the industry that they will gladly stab their brothers in the back for their own gain. (That's likely why your management simply yawned at your 98% strike vote!)

And about that gain. They gained employement at an airline run by the very Eastern management they sold out for. Eventually, one of the worst (an Eastern 'street captain', or replacement player) was elected as your union's president. In that position, he helped negotiate the first of several sub-standard contracts. That is until the announcement of SWA's intent to acquire AAI. What a proud history indeed.

Ok, every other point you are making might be accurate. I don't know for sure.

However, your insinuation that AAI pilots got the contract they finally got due to the SWA announcement, is misleading. Yes that is the time when it finally happened. It happened because management probably wanted it done and didn't need the bad press that was sure to follow. Too much new mula was at stake.

The part that you are not explaining is that the AAI pilots were led to believe by the NMB, in no uncertain terms, that they would not be released to strike once the announcement was made. The NMB was relieved when the announcement was made! They did not want to take the chance and risk adding to the country's unemployment numbers. Especially when the mid term elections were around the corner! Yes, if you didn't know, the authorization for an airline pilot group to strike goes all the way to the White House. And, as you can imagine, in Washington you/I are not that important. The flavor of the day is more important.

Were the AAI pilots ready to strike? Were they serious when they voted 98%? My gut feeling is that they were. They'd been in negotiations for nearly 5 years. The meat of the group was a lot younger and hungrier than the older ones you mention. Once the strike authorization would have been granted, just the FOs and younger CAs alone would have created an effective strike. And, I've not doubt that at least these guys/gals would have walked. For better or for worse, they would have done it.

So don't kid yourself. For immediate gains for the Airtran pilot group, the SWA announcement was a hindrance more than a helping hand. If you have an understanding of the RLA and the NMB, you would understand that a union/pilot group is entirely at their mercy. And if you've been paying attention, these government controlled entities are stacked up against the employees.

This is why I don't understand why some on the SWA side act as if they don't trust their CEOs direction. So many years of excellent SWA management can't buy him a smoother transition?

Reason I say this is because if SWA management wanted to treat you guys just like the rest of the industry, they could have. The laws are such that they could have easily used them against you. Trust me when I tell you this; you have the contract and bennies you currently have because your management wanted you to have them. That's not adversarial or demeaning of your efforts in any way. Simply that you need to understand what, and who you are dealing with. The RLA would back management all the way to the bank if they chose to be confrontational. However, SWA management chose the other road. The road to inclusion of their employees in the company's success.

Whether it was good for business, or, they thought you were the best looking pilot group in the world, it doesn't matter, they chose to go this direction. No identity really forced them. If push came to shove, the only effective way to force them is to strike. Good luck getting an authorization to do that! Not just now, but roughly for the last 15 years.

Now, don't mistake my words. I'm not suggesting that SWA pilots should have ever hinted at a strike. You have never had a reason for that to even cross your mind! On the contrary, I think you guys are blessed to have the management you have. Thus, the reason I get confused at the apparent lack of support that Mr. Kelly sometimes appears to have with this acquisition. Pardon the diatribe.........and my nosing around in your debate.

 

[waveflyer]

Ivair- well said- hedging is always misunderstood- speculators trash this idea, but the whole point of any hedging is to make a variable price constant so you know how to price your product. Remember in 2008 when airlines had to add fuel surcharges to tickets customers had already bought? Every advance ticket they sold was a money loser when oil shot up so fast. But bc SWA was hedged well, they their price of oil and could price correctly- any losses or gains are ancillary.

 

[waveflyer]

Minime- did you just say SWA was a hindrance? Seriously? Have you ever been through a strike?? I'm glad you'd have walked - but not getting a chance to walk is certainly not a hindrance- your entire post is pure conjecture- you can stop the good fight now- you aren't dealing w/ the same mgmt- so take a few breaths

 

[waveflyer]

There's a huge upside- talk of Europe - and S. America- taking advantage of the 2nd type and growing to smaller markets- and a third type in the mix- mgmt knows we have to compete better at long haul- exciting possibilities w/ the 73 replacement- just relax and try to see past your noses down the road -

We at swa are saying that if the model changes none- which it never has- we are the happiest:wealthiest pilots out there right now- bird in hand you know- but when you think of the possibilities... As Boyd says- the x factor in the industry is not just swa as we know it, but what Swa becomes.