SWA/Airtran Process Agreement??

[SWA/CA]

you can roll the dice with the arbitrators

Sure thing or you can roll the dice! OY6 wants you guys to roll the dice, while he watches. My guess, is ALPA/SWAPA will work this out. No one wants to roll the dice.

 

[GoodTimes]

SWA/CA,

It was a rhetorical question my man. And an interesting theory at that!

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Sure thing or you can roll the dice! OY6 wants you guys to roll the dice, while he watches. My guess, is ALPA/SWAPA will work this out. No one wants to roll the dice.

We'll see what the "sure thing" is (if there is one) and then we'll vote on it.

 

[shootr]

The only sure thing about about all of this is that GK is in control if we don't come to an agreement. Not ALPA and not the abitors.

Most of us in SWAPA do not fear arbitration. However, I don't like risk in regard to my career. Absolutely arbitration is a risk, even if I don't fear it. It's why I'd prefer an agreement to anything else. Citrus ALPA also takes a risk in going to arbitration, even if they don't believe it. It's very possible that ALPA's risk is far more consequential than SWAPA's risk. None of us should be willing to roll the dice just because some Delta jokers say we should.

Here's to working it out :beer:,
shootr

 

[Lear70]

:beer: (Lear70 buying me a beer)

I hope you're not one of those generic wuss light beer types... LOL

 

[slaquer5]

The only sure thing about about all of this is that GK is in control if we don't come to an agreement. Not ALPA and not the abitors.

Most of us in SWAPA do not fear arbitration. However, I don't like risk in regard to my career. Absolutely arbitration is a risk, even if I don't fear it. It's why I'd prefer an agreement to anything else. Citrus ALPA also takes a risk in going to arbitration, even if they don't believe it. It's very possible that ALPA's risk is far more consequential than SWAPA's risk. None of us should be willing to roll the dice just because some Delta jokers say we should.

Here's to working it out :beer:,
shootr

I see no risk with alpa. When this is done they will be shown the door. They are gameing with someone elses money.

 

[ivauir]

For the record, -9Capt didn't say that. 400ADude did. The whole SLI debate is getting moot. The MC's will provide a SLI to vote on. If they can find a solution that a majority from both sides agree on great. If not it goes to arbitration and we get a result by 31 DEC. Then it's over. If the union's don't set an implentation date, the arbitrators do.

Almost.

"If an agreement is not reached during that timeframe, the matter is agreed to be sent to arbitration and a new implementation process would then have to be negotiated."
Gary Kelly April 18th, 2011

 

[27 driver]

Kinda reminds of all the AAI guys who want to negotiate with their current 'post-SW announcement' contract. Plainly, that contract wouldn't have happened without GK making his announcement.

It's gonna come down to arguing pre-Sept. 26 contracts on both sides. What were the career earning potential at both airlines then?

With AAI low payscales (then) and no end in sight from AAI management, and a impressive +90% stike from the pilots to walk away and shut it down... will be eye opening for the three arbitors.

Southwest had no forseen labor strife what-so-ever. And I know it's not the fault of the Airtran pilots, it is/was a horrible management team you had to deal with. But the facts are the facts, and that's what will be argued.

Red, I respectfully disagree with your assumptions. You have no way of knowing if or when we would have obtained a new CBA at AAI. Can you honestly say we would have never got a better deal. Thats like saying LUV will never go international because they haven't done it yet. You just can't know for sure. We may have had to fight hard for it but it would have happened. No way BF would have bankrupted a profitable company to avoid industry standard wages. As far as what contract will be looked at during the possible arbitration is anybody's guess. The only fact in your post is the "+90% stike" vote. The rest is simply your opinion.

 

[humveedriver]

Almost.

"If an agreement is not reached during that timeframe, the matter is agreed to be sent to arbitration and a new implementation process would then have to be negotiated."
Gary Kelly April 18th, 2011

Ok. But how does that change the binding list that results from arbitration? What that quote means to me is if it goes to arbitration it will take longer for both pilot groups to have a single bargaining representative. This is our (SWA/AT) football till 30 SEP, after that both groups punt. I agree GK has options if it goes that far, he's driving the train.

 

[Lear70]

Almost.

"If an agreement is not reached during that timeframe, the matter is agreed to be sent to arbitration and a new implementation process would then have to be negotiated."
Gary Kelly April 18th, 2011

Almost.

IF it goes to arbitration, the SLI *AND* the implementation DATE will be decided by the 3-person arbitrator panel (Process Agreement signed by all 4 parties, including GK).

The PROCESS of implementation (how you take AAI pilots from our existing CBA into the SWAPA CBA, retrain them on the SWA FOM, pay rates for the 717 long-term, etc) would have to be negotiated, but the implementation DATE is out of anyone's hands if it goes to arbitration.

 

[General Lee]

Almost.

IF it goes to arbitration, the SLI *AND* the implementation DATE will be decided by the 3-person arbitrator panel (Process Agreement signed by all 4 parties, including GK).

The PROCESS of implementation (how you take AAI pilots from our existing CBA into the SWAPA CBA, retrain them on the SWA FOM, pay rates for the 717 long-term, etc) would have to be negotiated, but the implementation DATE is out of anyone's hands if it goes to arbitration.

Lear,

As OYS has repeatedly said on this forum, the only way to know you got a fair spot on your combined list is to have someone on the outside decide that for you. I know everyone on here wants to think it can work out between the two sides, but each side has an agenda, and that is to somehow gain an advantage on something that lasts forever (or until you merge again). Can you trust Swapa? Can you trust Alpa? I don't know if we can trust Alpa over here at my job. Can you trust arbitrators that have no reason to give a biased opinion? Yes.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Bill Nelson]

Almost

The date determined by the Panel shall not be earlier than the later of:

i. The date a single collective bargaining representative is recognized as the sole bargaining agent for the combined craft and class, in accordance with the RLA; and

ii. The issuance date of an FAA Single Operating Certificate, provided that Southwest and Air Tran make reasonable, good faith, and expeditious efforts to secure the Single Operating Certificate.

Gary will have a direct hand in how this goes down and "If and When" the ISL is ever implemented. He controls whether SWA ever actually gets SOC. They can call it off at any point if the landscape changes. For example fuel goes to $150 bbl or ALPA is unreasonable in the SLI process. Things change and Gary still has ultimate control hence all the "If and When" language.

If the operations are not combined there will never be an implemented ISL.

 

[ivauir]

Lear,

That is a direct quote from Gary Kelly. How much more clearly do you need it spelled out for you?

Arbitration has no guarantees for anyone.

GL, (applies to OYS equally)

When the two most active posters on this thread work for neither company there must be some psychosis involved. Frankly you add nothing to the discussion; you are profoundly ignorant of this particular transaction. Please find another pot to stir - your posts are spam.

Thanks for you cooperation and assistance in making this message board a better place.

 

[LeeRoyJenkins]

The PROCESS of implementation (how you take AAI pilots from our existing CBA into the SWAPA CBA, retrain them on the SWA FOM, pay rates for the 717 long-term, etc) would have to be negotiated, but the implementation DATE is out of anyone's hands if it goes to arbitration.

Incorrect. The arbitration award can decide the list, however the implementation is something different all together. It is most certainly all in Gary's hands and he will implement (or not) as he sees fit.

 

[Lear70]

That is a direct quote from Gary Kelly. How much more clearly do you need it spelled out for you?

Yes, he did say it very clearly. The PROCESS will have to be negotiated. He never said ANYTHING about the implementation DATE because THE PROCESS AGREEMENT SPECIFICALLY STATES THE ARBITRATORS WILL TELL US AN IMPLEMENTATION DATE if it goes to arbitration.

I don't know how to say it any more clearly than that for you. It's in black and white in the Process Agreement and EVERYONE signed it. People need to READ the ENTIRE Process Agreement FOR THEMSELVES, not just the bulletpoints that their respective unions are putting out.

Gary will have a direct hand in how this goes down and "If and When" the ISL is ever implemented. He controls whether SWA ever actually gets SOC. They can call it off at any point if the landscape changes. For example fuel goes to $150 bbl or ALPA is unreasonable in the SLI process. Things change and Gary still has ultimate control hence all the "If and When" language.

That's very true. If NOTHING is ever combined, and AirTran is held separately, operated in Orlando with NO operations EVER transferred to DAL (Dispatch, Scheduling, HR, etc), NO employee group integrated, then the companies can be operated separately for 18 months. If AirTran is sold in whole or in part during that 18 months, then it's all up in the air again, depending on how much is sold. No reason to go into that scenario because it's complicated and the likelihood of it happening is so slim that it equates to being struck by lightning AND winning the lottery... on the same day.

It'll all get worked out. People need to relax. We're all flying now, we'll all be flying when it's all said and done. Like one, previous poster said, life's too short to stress about all this. What will be will be, life goes on, and there's far worse fates to suffer when, at the end of the day, we'll all be gainfully employed in a flying job, able to pay the bills and take care of our families, and enjoying what we do. So few people can say that, especially these days.

Ya'll fly safe, gotta go to Vegas for 36 hours now.

 

[SWA/CA]

Can you trust Swapa? Can you trust Alpa?

So would you trust ALPA to agrue for you in front of Da Judges? A union you just can't trust? Sounds crazy to me.

How about this General, would this be ok with you and your sidekick OY6.......

SWAPA and ALPA come to an agreement and it gets voted on by both sides. If they like it and we like it = it passes. Simple... I know you Delta types like "other" people making decisions for you, but we SWA/AT Pilots will pick our own path.

 

[Crash Pad]

44 pages! Winning!

 

[Lear70]

Incorrect. The arbitration award can decide the list, however the implementation is something different all together. It is most certainly all in Gary's hands and he will implement (or not) as he sees fit.

You need to go READ THE PROCESS AGREEMENT, not just the SWAPA bulletpoints.

Section 5.g:

The Final Award shall be final and binding on the Parties to this Agreement, on their successors and assigns, and on the pilots employed by the Companies and their affiliates. The Final Award shall include the *DATE* on which the Integrated Master Seniority List will become effective, which will be EITHER a date agreed upon by the parties OR, if they do not agree, A DATE DETERMINED BY THE PANEL.

5.g.ii says that all parties have to make good faith efforts to EXPEDITIOUSLY obtain SOC. If they don't, the SLI can be implemented sooner than SOC by going back to court and arguing failure to meet 5.g.ii in good faith.

Nobody wants arbitration; it's a great unknown, for BOTH sides, but it's not some kind of threat that AirTran pilots will worry about. I trust the MC to get something WE ALL can live with and, failing that, for arbitration to bring us a fair deal, and for the whole thing to happen the way the Process Agreement spells out, that's all. Not a slam on SWA or SWAPA or anyone else, just a process we're all going to have to live with, for better or worse... :beer:

 

[ASADFW7]

In between a few fffd up posts one list is the goal at the end.

 

[General Lee]

Lear,

That is a direct quote from Gary Kelly. How much more clearly do you need it spelled out for you?

Arbitration has no guarantees for anyone.

GL, (applies to OYS equally)

When the two most active posters on this thread work for neither company there must be some psychosis involved. Frankly you add nothing to the discussion; you are profoundly ignorant of this particular transaction. Please find another pot to stir - your posts are spam.

Thanks for you cooperation and assistance in making this message board a better place.

I will continue to comment on these issues, since I have personally been through this. As far as your transaction goes, I can read all about it here, and Lear 70 has pointed out some important facts from that Process Agreement. Why is asking for a fair SLI stirring the pot? How can you think outside arbitration would be anything other than fair? What are you hiding? If you got a pre-nup for your marriage, would your wife allow your buddy to write it up? If you did that, wouldn't she suspect something? Let someone on the outside do it, and everyone will walk away KNOWING it was done as fair as possible. It's like you are afraid of being caught with something. Besides that, this is a public rumor board, and you can choose to ignore me, or continue to read what advice I have to give people who actually may want to read it. My stirring the pot as you say really is an effort to make your merger a more meaningful and smooth event. You're welcome. Just lookin out for everyone! LUV ya.



Bye Bye--General Lee