SWA - AAI question

[Lear70]

I'm not so sure about that. Ask the Republic/F9 guys how that's working out for them.

They're in a completely different scenario and have some strange issues about their own management (Republic) trying to keep the Airbus guys in their seats for a while. Who can blame them, the training costs could get EXTREMELY expensive very quickly (which could also happen here if there aren't fences in place to keep a bunch of seat shuffling from happening right off the bat).

I don't see EITHER union MC as "holding the process up". I see two sides negotiating for the interests of THEIR OWN pilots, as it should be, and unable to reach an agreement, so they table the issue and try to work on other things and come back to it at a later date.

Depending on your point of view, you could argue that EITHER side is causing the delay. It's all relative... excuse the pun. Not that a small delay matters, at the end of the day, DOCC isn't for another 3 months or so. Plenty of time to hammer it out.

The question that concerns me, as I mentioned earlier, is WHY that item is not something SWAPA wants to agree to. I fully back our MC's decision NOT to sign a Process Agreement without that protection in place and if that delays its signing, so be it. Until we're all on the same team, we each have to look out for our own best interests. It's not personal, just business.

 

[Ty Webb]

ASADFW:

I understand your positions, but for each and every point you raise, there is an equally valid argument for the AAI side. I don't think there is much to be gained from delineating them. It seems to just cause more animosity .

 

[Bwipilot]

The question that concerns me, as I mentioned earlier, is WHY that item is not something SWAPA wants to agree to. I fully back our MC's decision NOT to sign a Process Agreement without that protection in place and if that delays its signing, so be it. Until we're all on the same team, we each have to look out for our own best interests. It's not personal, just business.

I think you answered your own question. Until we're all on the same team, the unions will protect their own. There's little to be gained by SWAPA agreeing to a drop dead date until the SLI process is complete. I'm sure if AT ALPA agreed to a staple, SWAPA would sign off on it in a heartbeat. Since that's not the case, there's very little (more likely nothing) in it for SWAPA. SWAPA is fine with AT pilots being on their own contract until required. The last SWA/SWAPA side letter outlining aircraft growth ratios took care of any whip saw problems for SWAPA.

I realize that AT ALPA has several provisions in their contract that they'll negotiate with SWA in the AT ALPA/AAI/SWA transition agreement. SWAPA has similar items to work out with SWA in a separate transition agreement.

It seems that AT ALPA would like SWAPA to help negotiate with SWA on ALPA's behalf to speed up the AT pilots transition to the SWA payrates and work rules--what else would it be? SWAPA realizes that would take away any motivation of some AT pilots to move off their "relative seniority" stance and any chance of a mediated SLI. Hence, I truly doubt that SWAPA will help out AT ALPA with their transition agreement. Idealists might think it's hardball--realists will understand it's negotiations.

As you said, "It's not personal, just business." I'll be happy to lend my support to AT ALPA pilots, once the SLI is finished. Until then, we'll get to banter back and forth.

 

[texman]

I think you answered your own question. Until we're all on the same team, the unions will protect their own. There's little to be gained by SWAPA agreeing to a drop dead date until the SLI process is complete. I'm sure if AT ALPA agreed to a staple, SWAPA would sign off on it in a heartbeat. Since that's not the case, there's very little (more likely nothing) in it for SWAPA. SWAPA is fine with AT pilots being on their own contract until required. The last SWA/SWAPA side letter outlining aircraft growth ratios took care of any whip saw problems for SWAPA.

I realize that AT ALPA has several provisions in their contract that they'll negotiate with SWA in the AT ALPA/AAI/SWA transition agreement. SWAPA has similar items to work out with SWA in a separate transition agreement.

It seems that AT ALPA would like SWAPA to help negotiate with SWA on ALPA's behalf to speed up the AT pilots transition to the SWA payrates and work rules--what else would it be? SWAPA realizes that would take away any motivation of some AT pilots to move off their "relative seniority" stance and any chance of a mediated SLI. Hence, I truly doubt that SWAPA will help out AT ALPA with their transition agreement. Idealists might think it's hardball--realists will understand it's negotiations.

As you said, "It's not personal, just business." I'll be happy to lend my support to AT ALPA pilots, once the SLI is finished. Until then, we'll get to banter back and forth.

This is the other reason why I am confident about the whole process. We have are protections. This is why we will take care of our own. Once the AT brothers come aboard then they two will be protected under SWAPA. As far as the whipsaw issue, our contract never will allow it.

 

[ASADFW7]

The argument of 18 months in the AT contract is controlling will either contradict their argument or enforce the differences between the two companies.

If they want to use that 18 months in controlling that both parties need to be on the CBA and operated as one, they also are saying by signing this paper we acknowledge we the AT pilots are worth less and on the same piece of paper. What do the AT pilots want to be valued as less, or want the limit of 18 months of separate operations, they contradict either other?

Using arguments that contradict each other from the same document need to be realized.

SWA pilots do not get into a frenzy from ALPA working collectively against us and trying to push contradicting arguments from the same piece of paper. Lawyers are smarter than pilots, that is why associations hire them.

 

[redflyer65]

They're in a completely different scenario and have some strange issues about their own management (Republic) trying to keep the Airbus guys in their seats for a while. Who can blame them, the training costs could get EXTREMELY expensive very quickly (which could also happen here if there aren't fences in place to keep a bunch of seat shuffling from happening right off the bat).

I don't see EITHER union MC as "holding the process up". I see two sides negotiating for the interests of THEIR OWN pilots, as it should be, and unable to reach an agreement, so they table the issue and try to work on other things and come back to it at a later date.

Depending on your point of view, you could argue that EITHER side is causing the delay. It's all relative... excuse the pun. Not that a small delay matters, at the end of the day, DOCC isn't for another 3 months or so. Plenty of time to hammer it out.

The question that concerns me, as I mentioned earlier, is WHY that item is not something SWAPA wants to agree to. I fully back our MC's decision NOT to sign a Process Agreement without that protection in place and if that delays its signing, so be it. Until we're all on the same team, we each have to look out for our own best interests. It's not personal, just business.

Lear,

My point is that arbitors are professionals at dragging their feet. Time and time again. I don't know one case that was quick.

I believe that most of the time they know exactly how they will rule within a month, but never rule on an issue for 6-12 months or longer..

 

[Lonestar]

You AT guys can't get your company to follow half the changes in your new contract. As I understand it, you couldn't get your company to follow half the stuff in your old contract. One of my friends that left AT said y'all had over 90 grievances deadlocked and awaiting arbitration. Why, now, is this issue of transition language the one thing that MUST be followed...or else. The fact is the RLA makes it difficult (unfortunately) to get enforcement of your contract. Good luck going to a judge for injunction, as PCL stated, and convincing him to slap the hand that's about to feed you more than you ever thought you would get!

 

[texman]

I hope ALPA plays nice with GK and company.

 

[GuppyWN]

I guess the question I have is Why is ALPA end-running SWAPA and trying to negotiate directly with SWA? Gup

 

[malibuVride]

From last week's Merger Report:
"The committees tentatively plan to meet in Dallas again next week, with the intention of completing work on Process Agreement language, and to exchange more detailed proposals on protections to be incorporated into Transition Agreements, which can then be signed along with a Process Agreement."

This really worries me when the MEC Vice Chair gets on here to say its not ALPA holding up this process! The quote above clearly shows that ALPA is refusing to sign the Process Agreement until a Transition Agreement can also be signed. Too many guys in this group are counting on becoming SWA pilots to be risking it all for such rediculous expectations!


"Important issues remain to be completed, including assuring the completion of an operational merger within a specified period of time and protections for existing and growth flying and aircraft."

I believe we will ALL grow once the integration of the two airlines is complete. I, along with many in this group, worry that fighting for such protections NOW is way too aggressive and may really piss Gary Kelly off. This is serious stuff and I really don't want Linden and his clowns hosing this group!

 

[texman]

I guess the question I have is Why is ALPA end-running SWAPA and trying to negotiate directly with SWA? Gup

That is a very good question Gup. What I don't understand is why does AT trying to be part of the transition agreement?

 

[GuppyWN]

I see ALPA's resistance as a "demand" for a drop dead date for our contract and our payscale if this turns into a USAir/AWA.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Lots of arrogance around here from a group that used to be pretty humble. Starting to act like the AA sky nazis, United pilots, and last but not least my new double breasted brothers of the 80s and 90s. I think the short time that y'all have been at top has quickly gone to your heads. Or, there are a bunch of scared fo's that were just begining to realize the days of 5 year upgrades were long gone and their only hope is to take the airtran capt. jobs. I think a lot of you need to go back and look at your history and others. Your pilot group has historically(minus the last 5 years) been a bottom feeder as far as pay and workrules.

 

[texman]

From last week's Merger Report:
"The committees tentatively plan to meet in Dallas again next week, with the intention of completing work on Process Agreement language, and to exchange more detailed proposals on protections to be incorporated into Transition Agreements, which can then be signed along with a Process Agreement."

This really worries me when the MEC Vice Chair gets on here to say its not ALPA holding up this process! The quote above clearly shows that ALPA is refusing to sign the Process Agreement until a Transition Agreement can also be signed. Too many guys in this group are counting on becoming SWA pilots to be risking it all for such rediculous expectations!


"Important issues remain to be completed, including assuring the completion of an operational merger within a specified period of time and protections for existing and growth flying and aircraft."

I believe we will ALL grow once the integration of the two airlines is complete. I, along with many in this group, worry that fighting for such protections NOW is way too aggressive and may really piss Gary Kelly off. This is serious stuff and I really don't want Linden and his clowns hosing this group!

What ALPA needs to understand is GK is not a idiot. This company was founded by lawyers. Does ALPA think GK/SWAPA is going to kill his own. I don't think so. I think ALPA is caught up in this being a merger not a acquisition. There are things SWA has to respect in our contract not AT's. AT is being bought not SWA. I hope it works out for all of us.

 

[texman]

Lots of arrogance around here from a group that used to be pretty humble. Starting to act like the AA sky nazis, United pilots, and last but not least my new double breasted brothers of the 80s and 90s. I think the short time that y'all have been at top has quickly gone to your heads. Or, there are a bunch of scared fo's that were just begining to realize the days of 5 year upgrades were long gone and their only hope is to take the airtran capt. jobs. I think a lot of you need to go back and look at your history and others. Your pilot group has historically(minus the last 5 years) been a bottom feeder as far as pay and workrules.

Not arrogance just pride and protecting our own. Once it is all said and done AT brothers will be part of are family, and I am sure with there energy and pride we will be rocking. Just a team thing, sorry.