SWA - AAI question

[PCL_128]

Sorry, but I'm not going to get into a protracted debate with you about this. Simply, ALPA isn't holding anything up.

 

[ivauir]

Simply, ALPA isn't holding anything up.

That is in contradiction to your own communication piece.

 

[PCL_128]

That is in contradiction to your own communication piece.

No, it's only in contradiction to the way in which you're reading it. Like I said, you're drawing incorrect conclusions. Nowhere does the ATN ALPA update say that the union is holding anything up. That's just your perception.

 

[dicko]

That is in contradiction to your own communication piece.

Welcome to PCL 128 world. It's a circle. It was created in his image; The only perfect sphere ever found in nature.

 

[redflyer65]

SWA and SWAPA clearly demonstarated to the entire industry their lack of understanding of acquisitions/mergers during the Frontier debacle.

This one statement really shows how much you know about that transaction.

It is well known at this point that Gary had no real desire to buy Frontier. It was a look at the books and an attempt to make the actual buyer pay more.

Nothing more to it..

 

[ivauir]

Welcome to PCL 128 world. It's a circle. It was created in his image; The only perfect sphere ever found in nature.

Huh? Am I missing out on an inside joke or something?

 

[redflyer65]

which happens within 60-90 days of DOCC; it's not a lengthy process.

I'm not so sure about that. Ask the Republic/F9 guys how that's working out for them.

I could easily see an arbitor taking >1yr to rule on something like this even AFTER hearing arguements. Their goal is to drag their feet and make the parties argree in the meantime. I mean what a great gig. You hear arguements then doing nothing for an extended period of time.

That would not be quick..

 

[redflyer65]

Huh? Am I missing out on an inside joke or something?

Yes you are.

 

[dicko]

Huh? Am I missing out on an inside joke or something?

When you meet him you'll understand.

If it's any consolation, you wouldn't get a straight answer even if you were an ATN ALPA member.

 

[redflyer65]

The AirTran CBA doesn't evaporate at closing. They may live under it for the full 5 years depending on how the integration goes. AirTran pilots do not get the SWAPA CBA at closing. They will continue to operate as AirTran under their own CBA until the operations are combined, if they ever are.

This part is exactly right. So if it drags out more than 18 months on the AAI side (which I easily see happening) are the AAI guys going to sue Southwest at that point?

That could be interesting to watch.

 

[ASADFW7]

I find it interesting that many people are trying to compare this to mainline groups. Both AT and SWA are not mainline operations. The contrast is that SWA operates at one pay scale currently flying narrow body aircraft. SWA pay actually reflects wide body aircraft pay. The comparisons that SWA and AT are the same in many ways is incorrect. It is like comparing any sports franchises that compete in the same league but with different results, different payrolls matter. Just ask small market paying teams trying to keep their employees. We all know people have quit AT for many other companies, including SWA.

The argument that contracts change seniority doesn't is interesting as well, because the SWA pay in actualized higher and not theory in all categories of employees. AT employee pay is reflective of Airtran the company, their maturity and health as a company.

I sure hope Airtran has a better argument than we are just the same, everything is the same, single pay scale, etc. When actually there are several differences we all can all see that matter. Working for SWA and Airtran are not the same.

SWA is closer to UPS and Fedex in pay and status than Airtran. Sorry this isn't a same same grouping far from it. The more Airtran tries to use the comparisons to mainline, the more they expose that the B717 is DC-9 and F-100 paying aircraft, and their one pay scale never left that category and reflect a higher category.

The Airtran SLI argument needs to be much more developed and if it isn't it will split their work group (B737/B717) and shed a very low threshold of comparison to every SWA pilot. Airtran is flying less seats for less pay period. Looking back at SWA's history to use that in AT favor is not applicable in this case, because AT isn't SWA and AT has not achieve the same level of pay, and just actualized they are worth less, and voted to approve they are worth less. The Airtran pilots just said, hey I am worth less and I agree to it.

SWA pilots know their pay is one scale, that their pay and one aircraft type exceeds many mainline companies that have several pay scales including wide body. Trying to group SWA into the narrow body is a negotiating tactic for mainline pilot groups to gain back pay for their own pilot groups. They want SWA plus for their narrow body and SWA plus plus for their wide body.

You can beat this down, but right now narrow body to narrow body is not going to fly, and if this is what you have, expect a different reality than FD_J2 is trying to sell everyone. That is what a mainline pilot is trying to secure for their own negotiating position for their pay, not what is relevant, and not what is fair and equitable. Not by far.

 

[FDJ2]

This one statement really shows how much you know about that transaction.

It is well known at this point that Gary had no real desire to buy Frontier. It was a look at the books and an attempt to make the actual buyer pay more.

Nothing more to it..

Yeah right...and what color is the sky in your world?:laugh:

 

[FDJ2]

The arbitrators will weight what each pilot group brings to the other not what the companies bring to each other.

You're right about that. With two profitable low cost carriers flying similar equipment, the equity that probably will matter most will be how many narrow bodied captain and first officer positions each pilot group brings to the merger.

 

[ASADFW7]

If the argument is that SWA pilots are arrogant in their pay from mainline pilots that are trying to classify SWA as narrow body pilots, isn't it arrogant for mainline pilots trying to underclass the SWA pilot group and contract? I understand the SWA and AT pilots are trying to establish their positioning and pecking order, but the mainline pilots who are trying to predict the screwing to SWA has a motivation to keep SWA and AT in their place beneath them. SWA pilots are going to protect what they have worked for and those pilots on our list, and welcome AT pilots to the company when everything is complete, but not from the trickle down arrogance from mainline pilots.

I addressed the argument from the mainline pilots trying to scare the SWA pilots because of I was tired of their crap, and that is what it is. A big load of crap.

 

[FDJ2]

If the argument is that SWA pilots are arrogant in their pay from mainline pilots that are trying to classify SWA as narrow body pilots, isn't it arrogant for mainline pilots trying to underclass the SWA pilot group and contract? I understand the SWA and AT pilots are trying to establish their positioning and pecking order, but the mainline pilots who are trying to predict the screwing to SWA has a motivation to keep SWA and AT in their place beneath them. SWA pilots are going to protect what they have worked for and those pilots on our list, and welcome AT pilots to the company when everything is complete, but not from the trickle down arrogance from mainline pilots.

I addressed the argument from the mainline pilots trying to scare the SWA pilots because of I was tired of their crap, and that is what it is. A big load of crap.

Pot meet kettle.