SWA-AAI Going Rogue

[Hose A. Jiminez]

And yes cpt at aai compared to fo at swa is a pay cut.

No, in fact, it is not. And if it were, that is what pay protection is for.

 

[Cruncher]

So GL / Ty,

In your opinion, a 6 year AAI captain should keep his seat and a 11 year SWA FO should stay an FO? How do you think those cockpit conversations are going to go? The AAI guy gets an enormous increase in pay, QOL, benefits, security (something that is worth a lot in this industry), and the SWA guy gets nothing? Seems fair huh?

Nevermind, I'll leave that as a rhetorical question, I know how you'll answer. GL I believe after reading your posts from days past, you relish the day SWA guys are pissed and SWA fails.

 

[johnsonrod]

GK had better start treating the AT pilots like the current SWA pilots (pay and bennies), and the SLI should go to a NEUTRAL (that way GK has an "out"---it wasn't his fault) and be decided. Don't you want it to be fair? A neutral will look at everything and make a FAIR SLI. You obviously don't want it to be fair, and that is why YOU ARE THE ONE BRINGING THE HATE. If everything you say is true, then a neutral will create a list EXACTLY how you think it should be. What are you afraid of? I thought so. You don't want it to be fair. AT actually does bring a lot to the table, and that makes you nervous.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Bingo!

 

[General Lee]

So GL / Ty,

In your opinion, a 6 year AAI captain should keep his seat and a 11 year SWA FO should stay an FO? How do you think those cockpit conversations are going to go? The AAI guy gets an enormous increase in pay, QOL, benefits, security (something that is worth a lot in this industry), and the SWA guy gets nothing? Seems fair huh?

Nevermind, I'll leave that as a rhetorical question, I know how you'll answer. GL I believe after reading your posts from days past, you relish the day SWA guys are pissed and SWA fails.

Do Capt slots always equal seniority numbers? There are plenty of senior FOs that avoid being a Capt right away because they don't want to be on reserve. Do you suggest kicking that 6 year Capt out of his seat? This SLI is about SENIORITY NUMBERS. If you are senior to the 6 year Capt, then when a spot opens up in that base, you can bid in front of him. The way displacements happen is when bases close, or planes move from base to base. Then, that 6 year Capt may not be able to hold a Capt slot in another base, and he moves to what his SENIORITY can hold. This SLI is all about seniority, not seat position. Again, senior FOs may be able to hold Capt in other bases, but choose not to.

And, I don't want SWA to FAIL, I have always said you guys have a few great things going for you. But, some of the egos on this board are a bit over the top, and borderline elitist. You may have thought certain airline pilots were like that in the past, but a lot of your guys are that way NOW.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[BoilerUP]

In your opinion, a 6 year AAI captain should keep his seat and a 11 year SWA FO should stay an FO?

No dog in this fight, but longevity is not the same thing as seniority.

After 5 years of AAA/AWA harmony, I'm surprised more folks don't recognize that fact.

 

[Cruncher]

... This SLI is all about seniority, not seat position.
Bye Bye---General Lee

I wholly agree. Have you read what some of the AAI guys write? "No seat loss."

But, some of the egos on this board are a bit over the top, and borderline elitist. You may have thought certain airline pilots were like that in the past, but a lot of your guys are that way NOW.

Bye Bye---General Lee

Again agree on all sides. We all have our 2%. All these guys do is piss everyone else off.

 

[Cruncher]

No dog in this fight, but longevity is not the same thing as seniority.

I think (at least I hope) everyone here knows the difference. My comment was to the guys saying they will not loose one Captain seat (which is akin to saying Relative "Seniority").

One of the poor things with conversing in forums, is sometimes intent is lost. Can't readily convey body language, ...

 

[SWA/FO]

And yes cpt at aai compared to fo at swa is a pay cut.

smokin some Atlanta crack again.

 

[BoilerUP]

I think (at least I hope) everyone here knows the difference. My comment was to the guys saying they will not loose one Captain seat (which is akin to saying Relative "Seniority").

One of the poor things with conversing in forums, is sometimes intent is lost. Can't readily convey body language, ...

Indeed...that and internet forums tends to bring the ****************************** out in people that they'd never expose in reality. But I digress...

Recognizing that seniority isn't the same as longevity, why then would it be untenable that a 6 year AirTran captain keeps his Captain position and an 11 year Southwest FO keeps his First Officer position?

Did the AirTran captain not "bring his seat" to the merger, as the SWA first officer brought his seat to the merger?

Seems to me, as an outside observer who got to listen to AAA guys bitch about the Nicholau decision on the jumpseat for 2 years, that there have been some SWA pilots claim AirTran brings nothing to this merger. However, its quite clear that AirTran pilots are bringing Captain positions with them to a merger - Captain positions that some SWA pilots apparently feel they are entitled to, and Captain positions that they otherwise would not have available for some time at Southwest's recent & projected rate of growth & attrition. Some SWA pilots rationalize it that position by talking about the massive contract improvement AirTran pilots would get even from their new TA to the existing SWA CBA (even comparing AT CA to SWA FO), and while that may be true, it doesn't change the fact that pilots with more longevity at Airline A attempting to take captains positions away from pilots with more seniority at Airline B is essentially a land grab - or, perhaps a more accurate way to describe it, seizure by imminent domain where market price is paid to those who had something they didn't want to relinquish forcibly taken from them.

Just throwing this out there for folks to think about: what would be the harm to current Southwest pilots in stapling AT captains the bottom of SWA's captain list, and stapling AT FOs to the bottom of SWA's FO list? With this, everybody would keep the position they brought to the merger, would keep their longevity for pay, and SWA FOs would get the captain positions created by all attrition & growth, with the most junior SWA FO having an opportunity to upgrade before the most senior AT FO.

Sure, with the above there would be "winners" and "losers" (like there are in any SLI)...but it preserves the seats of existing AirTran CAs, gives existing SWA FOs first crack at all future captain positions, and allows AirTran FOs a substantial raise in pay to compensate for their upgrade being below all existing SWA FOs.

So, both sides - how out to lunch am I?

 

[Bill Nelson]

Did the AirTran captain not "bring his seat" to the merger, as the SWA first officer brought his seat to the merger?

In all honesty I think this idea is the crux of all the angst. There is a widespread fundamental misunderstanding that seems to muddy the water in this deal. This is not a merger of equals. This is not a merger at all and is simply an aquistion for SWA.

 

[SWA/FO]

Gary Kelly in the MCO lounge a few weeks ago "Guys, guys, you have to remember we are the ones doing the buying".

 

[Ty Webb]

Bill, you are the one that doesn't get it, but you will. Who "bought" who doesn't matter, it is a seniority list merger.

 

[Bill Nelson]

it is a seniority list merger

We aren't merging lists. We will be adding you to our list after the acquisition if the time comes where that is a necessity.

 

[Ty Webb]

We aren't merging lists. We will be adding you to our list after the acquisition if the time comes where that is a necessity.

Ha, ha ... OK, Chief. Whatever gets you through the night, but you have a long hard road ahead of you, because you're about twenty years behind the times.

 

[Bill Nelson]

What happened 20 years ago?