SWA/AAI and the flight deck jumpseat

[27 driver]

It is because when the city stops paying it is very bad PR to just pack up our equipment and leave.

That makes more sense. That's why I just fly the planes I guess.

 

[Cometman]

You're living in 2001, buddy. :laugh:

Founded in 1993, it is one of America’s largest low-fare airlines and offers quality jet service with over 700 daily flights to 71 destinations.

If you are saying that because Airtran has 700 flights a day they should be considered equal to SWA then you should also consider that SWA does 700 flights in about 5 hours. The rest of the day they have an additional 2600 flights. There is no question that the 2 carriers are not equal.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Take DOH and be happy or it's gonna be relative seniority.

You guy's need to get back to reality!

Wow. You just go on thinking that.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Actually, the strike vote ended up not being relevant at all. Once the merger was announced, the NMB was done with any possibility of releasing us (politicians don't like messing with billion dollar transactions), so the strike vote became irrelevant.

You guys are either completely incoherent, or you are attempting politician-level spin. You had a strike vote. The fact that you even felt it necessary to have a strike vote, not to mention the 98% vote for a strike, shows the type of employment you had relative to a SWA pilot.

The more you all say the strike vote is irrelevant, the more out of touch you make yourselves appear.

 

[Lear70]

I've been beating that drum since the beginning PCL-
I will accept it and move on. I understand that my life is fantastic at the bottom of this list.
But I will not concede that the fact I just stated isn't very different from the life of your FOs- or that that's irrelevant.

That's fair enough, thanks for being honestly committed to the process. I don't think something will happen that will hurt the SWA pilots, but I don't think large staples are going to happen, either.

Since we're talking hypotheticals again- what about you? If you shoot for the moon and this deal doesn't work out- what will you do? Breathe a sigh of relief that you can stay on at ALPA? Do you think FAPA leadership served their members appropriately?

Well, that truly IS a hypothetical.

There is no "if the deal doesn't work out". The deal has already happened, back on May 2nd. You can't compare this deal to Frontier... Southwest never purchased their airline. They HAVE purchased ours. Whole different scenario.

All this is mental - i do trust both our NC/MCs will do their job and we'll all be fine. Again, I predict you'll be ratio'd down from the DOH of your #1 guy in a way that leaves several hundred AT below CJ - and then we'll get down to the business of growing in ways that neither company has before.
Make no mistake- my message is a positive one- ALL of us are fine- we need to go through this process- but we're going to be great-
But remember- get on the list, PCL.
And no- our 1% are being no worse on here than your 1%- it's just FI- not reality.

Interesting prediction, will be fun to come back here in about 6-8 months and see where it all came out. My predictions amongst my fellow pilots among them (which I'll share with you guys when we get there).

 

[Ty Webb]

If you are saying that because Airtran has 700 flights a day they should be considered equal to SWA then you should also consider that SWA does 700 flights in about 5 hours. The rest of the day they have an additional 2600 flights. There is no question that the 2 carriers are not equal.

The reason I posted that was in response to two of your guys, who were stating that SWA served many more, or even twice as many cities as AirTran, which is not true (the truth is 72-71). I posted the actual number, from an official site. You then turned this into a "what do you mean by that?".

What I see on here is SWA pilots who are using false "facts" and purely emotional arguments to try to justify taking as much seniority away from the AirTran pilots as possible.

Some of you "star-bellied Sneetches" need to get over yourselves.

 

[Ty Webb]

You guys are either completely incoherent, or you are attempting politician-level spin. You had a strike vote. The fact that you even felt it necessary to have a strike vote, not to mention the 98% vote for a strike, shows the type of employment you had relative to a SWA pilot.

The more you all say the strike vote is irrelevant, the more out of touch you make yourselves appear.

Sigh. Some of you have obviously never actually taken the time to read any of the Arbitrater rulings from previous SLI's between two non-bankrupt carriers.

Read the NWA/DAL ruling. Here's a link. Search the document [ctrl+F] for "strike". You will not find any reference to past NWA strike votes, or actual strikes. It didn't matter.

While you have that document open, read the damn thing. See if you can find any reference to "posts on anonymous message boards asking to be stapled" or "how many pilots left one carrier for the other", or any of the other emotional arguments you guys have been making on here. If either side thought those things were relevant, the Arbitrator sure didn't.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Sigh. Some of you have obviously never actually taken the time to read any of the Arbitrater rulings from previous SLI's between two non-bankrupt carriers.

Read the NWA/DAL ruling. Here's a link. Search the document [ctrl+F] for "strike". You will not find any reference to past NWA strike votes, or actual strikes. It didn't matter.

While you have that document open, read the damn thing. See if you can find any reference to "posts on anonymous message boards asking to be stapled" or "how many pilots left one carrier for the other", or any of the other emotional arguments you guys have been making on here. If either side thought those things were relevant, the Arbitrator sure didn't.

Are you implying that DL/NW is comparable to SWA/AAI? If so, what color is the sky in your world?

 

[texman]

I thought dal/nwa. Where bankrupt?

 

[Ty Webb]

Are you implying that DL/NW is comparable to SWA/AAI? If so, what color is the sky in your world?

Yes. GASP! When you take the emotion, the threats, and the sense of entitlement out of it, it isn't very complicated at all.

One carrier was hiring, expanding into international markets. It had tripled in size during the worst decade for airlines, and had another 30% fleet growth on firm order. It has a more junior pilot group, with quicker advancement but less compensation, although large gains had been made with each successive contract. Pay is definitely lower at this carrier, but they only at year 15 in their history.

The other carrier had been around longer, had more cash, a longer and more storied history, but in recent years, it had matured, its costs had gone up and growth had stopped. No pilot had been hired in the past few years, and folks at the bottom would likely not see much advancement until retirements began again. Any orders were for fleet replacement. More retirements are scheduled at this carrier, and the Captain age demographic is somewhat higher. Pay is definitely higher here, but after integration, both groups will be paid the same, so it doesn't take away from this group to pay the other pilot group the same hourly rate.

In other words, to an Arbitrator, it's not going to be brain surgery. There will be no staple. There will be no "bump and flush". There will likely be not a lot of change, period. That is their job- to merge the lists in a way that causes the least amount of change to a pilots' expectations for seat, equipment, domicile, and bidding power, and the number of years in the top seat.

I know you guys don't like it, but historically, that is how it has gone. If you want to take your chances on Arbitration, I think you'll be surprised and disappointed. As long as you keep thinking you are the "star-bellies", though, reaching a mutually agreeable list that will pass muster with both Pilot groups is unlikely.

This argument has not changed since September. Nothing has changed, except the exchanges have gotten uglier and more personal, unfortunately.

 

[SWA/FO]

Ty... Southwest has added well over 200+ jets in the last 10 years. You are smoking crack. Stop typing, you might have a new job title on the new combine list, if they ever combine them. You should have type - "you HOPE there will be no staple" You don't know $hit.

Go run your side business, you consider flying a part-time job anyway. You keep digging yourself a hole. Use your "mind filter" - I'm sure your Southwest buddy on "the other forum" is tired of defending your NONESENSE. Try to lay low (hint, hint) or drink heavy (like we do)

:cartman:

 

[Bob Dylan]

In other words, to an Arbitrator, it's not going to be brain surgery. There will be no staple.

It will most likely be a staple or it won't be an integrated list.

A staple affects the least amount of people, a staple would easily pass a vote by both pilot groups, and a staple is the absolute fairest integration method.

Sorry Ty, but nobody is feeling sorry about your massive pay raises and benefit gains you will make when you get stapled to the SWA list. Your buddy Lear70 was even begging for a staple right before SWA bought your airline.

Don't be so greedy.

 

[Ty Webb]

A staple affects the least amount of people, a staple would easily pass a vote by both pilot groups, and a staple is the absolute fairest integration method.

Ha, Ha. Put your stapler away, Milton. :laugh:

 

[Ty Webb]

Blah, Blah, threat, Blah, Blah, jealousy, Blah, Blah, threats.

Sorry, I'm only responding to facts from here on out. Not insults, not emotional crap, threats, etc.

I see you posted you added 200 jets in 10 years, or about a third of your fleet. Unfortunately, your only orders going forward were to replace -300's and -500's.

 

[SWA/FO]

I see you posted you added 200 jets in 10 years, or about a third of your fleet. Unfortunately, your only orders going forward were to replace -300's and -500's.

Where have you seen this FACT? Source? Here is a fact: Tranny is FAT on Pilots.

Why would I be jealous of you. I am a SOUTHWEST Pilot. You are not. How do you like them facts?

You will with be below me on combined list, regardless of method used - if its voted or assigned by someone. More FACTS.

:cartman:

 

[scoreboardII]

There will be no "bump and flush". There will likely be not a lot of change, period.

Do you want a "seat", or do you want a seniority number?
Choose wisely.

 

[Ty Webb]

Do you want a "seat", or do you want a seniority number?
Choose wisely.

What I want is what is agreed upon by both pilot groups, or, barring that, what is arbitrated.

No more, no less.

 

[texman]

Sorry, I'm only responding to facts from here on out. Not insults, not emotional crap, threats, etc.

I see you posted you added 200 jets in 10 years, or about a third of your fleet. Unfortunately, your only orders going forward were to replace -300's and -500's.

Orders going forward where for growth. Boeing has a big problem right now. For obvious reasons.

 

[Sy-bill]

What has been interesting to me while lurking these few months is how really nothing has changed in the dialog.

Relative is fair vs staple is fair. If everything was actually equal shouldn't the extremes on both sides be which pilot group (AT and SWA) should be stapled to the bottom?

The truth by the consistent dialog of expectations is that the AT pilots think they are the ones getting a good deal and the SWA guys didn't want any deal at all.

My early engagement on this issue was the opinion that the AT guys would be worse off with arbitration than a negotiated SLI. And that holds true based on the terms of the Process Agreement between Swapa and SWA. If this goes to arbitration, all the cards are held by Swapa and zero by the AT pilots.

Now, I don't think a staple of AT pilots is fair in this situation, but in the long term, it could be better than arbitration that may keep the At pilots on the outside looking in for an unknown amount of time. Maybe forever. NO ONE knows the contingency plans are that only the SWA executives know with every eventuality. And there is no doubt, they have a plan based on 16,000 unhappy SWA pilots, flight attendants and mechanics. SWA has legally set up operating Airtran separately if need be.

But, I am an optimist. I think this will be settled and both companies will merge within the next five years.

 

[Rough67]

Man oh man... I strongly suggest you ask the company to reconsider getting all new randomized employee numbers. It doesn't matter what side you are on or how the SLI works out for you, but your soon to be Green book Orange book situation (gripes and grudges) will always be there waiting on each flight release/sim event.. Don't say I didn't tell you (easily worth 100k that someone quoted before). Good luck out there.