Study Finds Opening Love Field to Long-Haul flying would have Serious Conserquences

[FlyBoeingJets]

If I suffer from a lack of vision then maybe I can be the CEO of a Legacy Airline!! I will make millions!!

Finally something we can agree on. Well said.

 

[chase]

kinda like what SWA was doing in PHL, PIT, etc...





NO airline in this country, or the world for that matter, is interested in fairness and equity. That is the nature of corporate America. It is all about pleasing the shareholders and making money... yes, even SWA!

AA,

Your top statement is a bit misleading....AA came to Love to compete against Legend & then left shortly after they went out of business...that is a business decision, I agree, no harm, no foul....however, SWA has gone into PHL, PIT but we haven't left....in fact it would be interesting to compare the number of cities/employees that AA vs SWA have left/furloughed over the years....would that say something about the corporate culture/ethics/value system the company has? Just as folks have some core human instincts, businesses do also but beyond that there are some indivduals/businesses that standout for their unique character, ability to handle adversity & treat people/employees-customers wouldn't you agree? While no one or any one business is perfect, it can't be concluded that since AA & SWA are businesses, they view how they go about dealing with competition/customers the same way...that generality doesn't quite fit I believe & if one is to conclude that we will do in PHL/PIT what AA did at Love against Legend & SWA will leave....that isn't completely accurate in my opinion. If AA had decided to stay around Love to compete I'd say, "attaboy, bring it on" but they haven't but no one took them to the woodshed for leaving like they are trying to take SWA to the same woodshed for simply allowing "the company" to decide where they wish to make money? My apologies for the long rant...I wish you well at AA & hope you prosper....my apolgoies if I misread your post...


BTW, if it can be classified as "dirty 'ole tricks" to try to get a law changed, the WA...what is it if one tries to get a new law passed? Just wondering....I wasn't good in civics so help me out here please...

 

[aa73]

Well said Chase.

 

[chase]

AA73,

Thanks...here is my solution & it has been partially bantered about before...

1. Lift immediately the ban that prohibits through ticketing....I know you understand what that means AA but to the casual reader let me illustrate what type of conversation could get SWA fined or have a reservation/customer service agent do something that is illegal.

Res Agent:"Hello this is SWA reservations."

Customer: "I'd like to fly from Dallas Love to LAX."

RA: "Sorry sir, we don't show that routing in our system."

Cust.: "Don't you fly out of Love and LAX."

RA: "Yes."

Cust.: "But you can't sell me a ticket to fly between those cities, is that correct?"

RA: Yes.

Cust: I see on your website where the same restriction applies but it looks like I can book a ticket between DAL-ABQ & then ABQ-LAX....is that correct?

RA: I can book you on those two flights if you'd like.

Cust: Will I have to get off the airplane & change planes?

RA: Yes you will & you will be purchasing two tickets, not one sir but I can't sell you a ticket all the way through...that would be illegal.

Cust: Is this more expensive than if I was to ticket it all the way through?

RA: I don't know sir (the answer is normally yes) but I'll be happy to book you on that route if you'd like.
(my apologies for the long illustration but it proves the point at how stupid not just the entire WA but how even smaller portions were put into make it more expensive/painful for the consumer....no regards at all for the consumer were considered when the WA was put in....I think you would agree AA73)
_____________________________

How many passengers aren't smart enough to realize on the web that when they see no connections between DAL-LAX they give up & go somewhere else to look for connections?

Currently SWA probably gets more money from these type of passengers booking two seperate flights going & coming than if we could thru-ticket folks yet we're willing to take that chance & ask for thru-ticketing so our RA & customer service folks could sell the tickets....BTW, we can't even advertise a DAL-LAX price or flight to even show folks if it is cheaper to fly even in this convulted way out to LAX vs. flying on a competitor......

Sooooo, lift that ban immediately, period dot, overnight & see what that does to DFW & AA. BTW, that restriction applies to not just SWA but to any carrier who is flying out Love, even AA.

2. Since AA has stated they will come to Love if the WA goes away, assess if AA decides to come with this lifting of the thru-ticketing....you'll begin to gauge how serious they are about competing if they decide to come over immediately....they have 3 gates right now but don't use any of them. AA's choice to come to Love would be completely voluntary; not passing any laws to make it mandatory but if they think it is such a big deal to allow this to happen we'll see by either their presence or their lack of movement to Love.

3. Have the airlines who wish to compete out of Love all pick 4-5 airports a piece to compete on....they could choose the same cities or different cities....pick whatever market they wish & all put their bids in (no one would know in advance) & start flying from Love. You would be locked in for a year.....build up your base or whatever....if you got lucky & no one was competing with you, oh well....good on ya...if there was competition on your route, oh well, unlucky....Each year the carriers could add 4-5 more airports to their route structure......see which cities would lobby for the extra flights would be very interesting...a free market system not completely but better than what is out there now.....again based upon what the airline thought was most profitable...do this for 3-5 years adding new cities & allowing DFW to absorb the market forces & allowing competition to still occur. AA will determine very quickly the profitability or not of coming to Love.....if not, they can go back to DFW & do their best to compete....I'm confident they can....BTW, if an airline chose to cutback service from a city that was added when they moved into Love, then they would have one less city to add to the next year as a "punishment" for closing a city...kind of like losing a draft choice in sports when one doesn't something deemed harmful.....this would insure cities aren't just added or dropped at a whime & without some penalty. ....once the initial list of carriers were chosen no new carriers could be be added for a year until the following year. Then more could be added.

4. After a 3 year period Love would be up to 15 cities per airline & we'd let the normal economic whims take hold....let the best company win....oh, BTW, SWA would be restricted from cutting back service to any of their cities as has been predicted by a couple of "studies"....quite frankly I would expect to see the smaller TX cities sending more traffic to Love instead of to DFW & not seeing the traffic be reduced, exactly the othe way in my view but that restriction would appease those who believe that SWA will dump shorthall completely & go longhaul only out of Love....I think SWA has shown in the past they have pretty good loyalty to their customers at smaller cities.

Cap total flights out of Love at 250-300....SWA would keep its current flight schedule but not be allowed to add anymore cities than what they current have....the number of flights to these "new cities" could be unlimited...1 flight, 2 or more....it is all up to the airline completely, whatever they deem profitable.

Lots of holes in the idea so please go ahead & blow it out of the water.....the WA is going to go away in my view regardless....instead of wasting time & making lawyers rich, why not compromise early & get the low fares to folks earlier......GK & those guys have my full support & SWA has nothing to do with this idea....I provide it more to the opposition to eliminating the WA & say this type of compromise might be a starting point for something that could allow market forces to be minimized vs. having to deal overnight with the abandonmment of the WA...that truly would disrupt operations significantly everywhere but at SWA....trust me, I'm sure SWA has their "Overnight" plan in place....and SWA's will be far more successful in my view than what other carriers could "plan for" .......just one FO's view from the right seat.....

 

[Flopgut]

I've got to call BS on this one. Legend was well financed and well managed. The market did NOT determine their fate, the court battles they were force to fight used up all of their cash and AA's obviously predatory competition was too much. If AA were still flying fifty six seat MD80's out of Love, I might be on your side, but they aren't. To my logic, the very fact that AA flew aircraft capable of seating 172 pax out of Love, and then stopped as soon as Legend went out proves to me that AA isn't interested in fairness and equity.

enigma

I think your doing a good job of backing my point: they would have done better out of DFW. You can't just mimic the most incendiary SWA type fundamental in the metroplex and NOT think AA is going to act. Legend's plan needed to account for the extra expense of an all-out AA retaliation and obviously they did not. Did they think that just by showing up at Love they would automatically be "Loved"? So much so that the metroplex would patronize and protect them? Hardly.

They should have gone to DFW. Thats where the premium customers arrive from international flights and the potential affiliations exist. Or, instead of crushing them, AA might have bought them.

 

[enigma]

I think your doing a good job of backing my point: they would have done better out of DFW. You can't just mimic the most incendiary SWA type fundamental in the metroplex and NOT think AA is going to act. Legend's plan needed to account for the extra expense of an all-out AA retaliation and obviously they did not. Did they think that just by showing up at Love they would automatically be "Loved"? So much so that the metroplex would patronize and protect them? Hardly.

They should have gone to DFW. Thats where the premium customers arrive from international flights and the potential affiliations exist. Or, instead of crushing them, AA might have bought them.

Flopgut, this topic has exceeded my attention span. I'm going to have to ask you to restate your point. In return, I'm going to put my thinking cap so that I may return with a precise position as well.

engima, a man with a one track mind (unfortunately, it has a lot of hidden sidings.)

 

[Flopgut]

AA,

Your top statement is a bit misleading....AA came to Love to compete against Legend & then left shortly after they went out of business...that is a business decision, I agree, no harm, no foul....however, SWA has gone into PHL, PIT but we haven't left....in fact it would be interesting to compare the number of cities/employees that AA vs SWA have left/furloughed over the years....would that say something about the corporate culture/ethics/value system the company has? Just as folks have some core human instincts, businesses do also but beyond that there are some indivduals/businesses that standout for their unique character, ability to handle adversity & treat people/employees-customers wouldn't you agree? While no one or any one business is perfect, it can't be concluded that since AA & SWA are businesses, they view how they go about dealing with competition/customers the same way...that generality doesn't quite fit I believe & if one is to conclude that we will do in PHL/PIT what AA did at Love against Legend & SWA will leave....that isn't completely accurate in my opinion. If AA had decided to stay around Love to compete I'd say, "attaboy, bring it on" but they haven't but no one took them to the woodshed for leaving like they are trying to take SWA to the same woodshed for simply allowing "the company" to decide where they wish to make money? My apologies for the long rant...I wish you well at AA & hope you prosper....my apolgoies if I misread your post...

Chase,

It is obvious you are bright. But your posts often ignore the larger truths. What do you mean "attaboy, bring it on"? Bring it on? Its on! It is on at DFW! BTW, the last time it was "on" with your airline at Love it was with Braniff and your patriarch had them thrown off the airport with a trumped up court order! Braniff stayed at Love to match you on every leg. Man I would have liked that fight! How do you think that would have played out?


I can solve this entire issue. Lets get SWA to buy Love field. Along with the sale we can end the WA. SWA can fly anywhere they want to and throw every other airplane out. The city can take take the monies from the sale and finance the remainder of municipal airport operations. The money can also go to lowering costs at DFW and offer incentives for new airline tenants. This would provide an equitable resolution (restitution) to the airport problems of years past and let the city focus energy on DFW and not worry about getting "shaken down" by SWA in the future. SWA can shoulder the costs of Love: utilities, parking, ATC, airway facilities, security, taxes, etc. Shouldn't be too bad...SWA doesn't regard these as very large issues...as long as someone else is paying for it. Would that change if they were to pay for it themselves?

I'm thinking 20-30 billion.

 

[mdf]

Chase,



I can solve this entire issue. Lets get SWA to buy Love field. Along with the sale we can end the WA. SWA can fly anywhere they want to and throw every other airplane out. The city can take take the monies from the sale and finance the remainder of municipal airport operations. The money can also go to lowering costs at DFW and offer incentives for new airline tenants. This would provide an equitable resolution (restitution) to the airport problems of years past and let the city focus energy on DFW and not worry about getting "shaken down" by SWA in the future. SWA can shoulder the costs of Love: utilities, parking, ATC, airway facilities, security, taxes, etc. Shouldn't be too bad...SWA doesn't regard these as very large issues...as long as someone else is paying for it. Would that change if they were to pay for it themselves?

I'm thinking 20-30 billion.

I like the idea, but the price is way out of whack. The price cannot include value created by SWA operations.

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut, this topic has exceeded my attention span. I'm going to have to ask you to restate your point. In return, I'm going to put my thinking cap so that I may return with a precise position as well.

engima, a man with a one track mind (unfortunately, it has a lot of hidden sidings.)

Current point: Legend should have chosen DFW as their Dallas airport.

Past point: Yes, I need to be able to substantiate the Lady Bird/Herb connection. I'm working on this. I have been told this is how it went down by both Braniff and Central (the old Central from GSW) airlines pilots. I put it out there just to see what the SWA systemites would respond with. You are the only one who has called me on it; makes me wonder. When/if I find it, it is going on here pronto.

 

[Flopgut]

I like the idea, but the price is way out of whack. The price cannot include value created by SWA operations.

The environment is changing, but a simple repeal of the WA is going backward, not forward. Offering SWA the chance to buy the airport goes forward. For that matter, let them buy Midway too, or they could have been sold Mueller in Austin. (it is a pretty sad commentary on the state of the transportation system when a municipality has to destoy infrastucture to keep from being extorted by one airline[AUS]) If they really feel that their brand alone is what has gotten them this far then they shouldn't hesitate to want to add infrastructure/capital investment. ABX has their own airport. It opens the discussion to whether or not SWA is serious or just wants a continued free ride at Love.

Whats a good price? What is the real estate worth? I think real estate has gone up. There may be other bidders...someone else may buy it and throw SWA out...how strangely appropriate that would be.