Students and freshly minted commercial pilots read here!!

[Flying Ninja]

You know CAPT is not accepting new students and ERAU is going to shut it down.

ERAU already gave CAPT the kick on the ass. ERAU told CAPT that whatever cadets they have is it. Train them, graduate them, and ERAU wipes their hands of CAPT. CAPT has stated that there are "suitors" looking to buy the program. I don't know what drugs or liquid libations they are feeding these "suitors" but I sure hope these "suitors" know what they're buying into. And if a "suitor" is reading this, a word to the wise: FIRE MANAGEMENT. And if you need proof, send me a private message and we'll talk.

 

[Flying Ninja]

I guess their contract with that big jet cargo company to provide Flight engineers was all a lie. Stupid greedy folks like to lie!

Actually, folks that went to Focus Air Cargo from CAPT are just starting to get into the FE training process. You have to work there as their biatch for a year before you qualify for the training and position.

 

[mcjohn]

Oh yeah?:laugh: What are they doing before FE training? (besides the on your knees thing)

 

[Flying Ninja]

From what I understand, they are assigned an area of work (filing, booking, paper pushing, copy documents on the nifty xerox machine, etc.) on top of being what's called a "flight follower". Not quite a dispatcher. In short, you're watching an airplane fly and you're being someone's biatch...for a year.

 

[mcjohn]

Well there you have it folks! Call up Focus Air Cargo and tell them you want an internship and in a year you'll go into Flight Engineer training. Does anyone think that CAPT will prepare them for becomeing a copier biatch. That 100k spent at CAPT won't do you much good a year later once all the training goes stale. My wife could use a new car and I want my own jet so I'm gonna start this company:
FEFT - Fed Ex Filing Training - I won't even advertise that they'll get into FE training 'cause they won't. They'll just have the opportunity to MAKE CONNECTIONS on the inside by filing and copying things. I'll have to charge twice as much as CAPT did because hey..you know....it's FED EX!!

 

[Flying Ninja]

To be fair to everyone, this privilege is only available to CAPT graduates. Sorry folks. I know you were all dying to jump on it.

 

[mcjohn]

That's a shame that Focus Air Cargo is going to go belly up when CAPT does. There won't be anyone to do their paper work for them!!:nuts:

 

[Flying Ninja]

I doubt Focus will go belly up. There are plenty of classes coming out of CAPT in the next year to keep focus going for a year or two.

 

[BoilerUP]

CAPT is in the process of being shut down, isn't it?

 

[mcjohn]

We all certainly hope so....Any ideas on getting Gulfstream to shut down?

 

[Joe Schmo]

If i got hired at a regional with less then 150 hours, would you consider me very fortunate or very lucky, maybe both.

Pilots to often confuse ability with expierence, I personally don't believe 500 TT is enought, a pilot should have at least double that. Secondly won't that first regional job be alot sweeter if you started out at 30K and without a 100K debt.

Great post McJohn, the pilots in this industry should strive to make it better. Unfortunately most of us all are to busy arguing about who the better pilot is, which is the better company to work for, who hand flies an ILS better, which airplane is the coolest to fly, who has the hottest flight attendents, which beer tastes the best, etc, etc, etc....

 

[BoilerUP]

If i got hired at a regional with less then 150 hours, would you consider me very fortunate or very lucky, maybe both.

I hope you left a zero off that number, because if you got a job with less than 150 hours you don't even have a commercial ticket yet...

Pilots to often confuse ability with expierence, I personally don't believe 500 TT is enought, a pilot should have at least double that. Secondly won't that first regional job be alot sweeter if you started out at 30K and without a 100K debt.

You are entitled to your opinion that 500tt isn't enough; some recent 121 training program pass statistics would say otherwise. You are right pilots often confuse ability with experience, but many pilots also tie ability with total time, which can be a terrible way to judge one's skill.

Despite popular opinion to the contrary, regional jobs won't magically start paying $30k during the probationary year if people didn't accept $23,000 job. Payrates (like everything else) are negotiated in the CBA and companies won't pay a penny above that because they don't have to. Pay would be $30/hr first year if a negotiating committee could TA a rate that high.

I hate to sound like the champion of low-timers here, but I'm tired of pilots basically saying that they didn't get hired at that low time, so those that do are ____________ (fill in blank with unsafe, unprofessional, inexperienced, etc). One pilots way is not necessarily the best way for another, and yes, a pilot can get to that point without being $100k in debt. Anybody who leverages themselves enough to buy a house simply to get flight training isn't financially responsible.

 

[mcjohn]

Anybody who leverages themselves enough to buy a house simply to get flight training isn't financially responsible.

O.K. So I'm not financially responsible? What makes you think anyone would buy a house SIMPLY TO GET FLIGHT TRAINING? That the dumbest thing I've heard so far today. You make no sense. Think of every reason you've heard throughout your life of why people buy houses.
Why don't you share YOUR ways of the most financially responsible way to get flight training?!

 

[BoilerUP]

O.K. So I'm not financially responsible?

If you put yourself $100,000 in debt for flight training, then no, you are not financially responsible. Ever heard of Dave Ramsey? He'd probably be screaming at you right now.

What makes you think anyone would buy a house SIMPLY TO GET FLIGHT TRAINING? That the dumbest thing I've heard so far today. You make no sense. Think of every reason you've heard throughout your life of why people buy houses.

You completely missed my point. Where I come from (central KY to central IN) $100,000 will get you a small 1100 sq ft, 3ba/1ba home on a slab with about .15 acres of land. A home is an investment, the biggest capital purchase of most people's lives and really the only good reason (other than student loans) to have any debt. To incur debt to better yourself through job training or education is fine, but you have to look at what that debt will ultimately cost you versus your income potential afterwards. And lets face it, any entry-level job (especially in aviation) doesn't pay especially well.

Why don't you share YOUR ways of the most financially responsible way to get flight training?!

I went to a Big Ten university with an aviation program out of state and all said and done, my education cost me somewhere around $110,000. That includes a Bachelors degree out of state, rent for 3.5 years, books, and all my flight fees. My parents paid for one year, I worked three jobs (including flight instructing & ferrying airplanes starting two weeks after the end of my soph year), the Air Force paid for a bit and I incured about $45K in student loans. The total cost of all my ratings (zero time through CFI-AIM) probably ran $40K, but in the end of school I had FlightSafety training & time in type on a bizjet, a bunch of transport category sim time, 400+ dual given and multiple job offers upon graduation. It worked well for me and I wouldn't trade my experience for anything - but what was best for me is not necessarily best for someone else.

Don't take what I said as an insult - it wasn't meant to be - but as my good friend TonyC says, "the truth only hurts if it should..."

 

[H2OK9]

my two cents

I think every destination has several paths and the correct path to take is up to the individual and their situation. On you 500 hour rule. I have to disagree. I had 194 hours single engine and bought 100 hours multi in a c-310. after my commercial ticket, I did a little research and found a company that paid my to seed thunderstorms in texas and oklahoma flying a c-340. ya ya, crappy job but great experience with weather. I flew all summer left with 194 sinlgle and 300 multi. hired at great lakes..ya ya I know but did my time there made some cash (not much). Left with 4000 hours and am a chief pilot for a private company that has me flying them to Mexico everyother week. oh the pay is well...let say I bought a house and a 911 cab this year. not trying to brag or toot the horn just think that if it is your passion to fly then nothing should stand in your way and I don't think you can judge someone by their choices they make to get there. Ok, let the bullets fly....This is not meant to start a huge debate not did I check my spelling...let it go..

 

[positiveg]

So, unless you know some company that's willing to put my ass in a plane for free or find me a jet job of which I'd be happy to fly for nothing in order to make myself more attractive to the airlines, I'd appreciate it if you just shut it.

That attitude is what drives down the industry. Nobody should fly for free. Stop whoring yourself.

And I don't mean to offend when I say this. But you've made the mistake with CAPT and now you need to wake up and get rid of that attitude. People need to get paid to fly.

 

[Flying Ninja]

I wasn't being 100% serious. As far as a flying career goes, there's no way I'm getting a job. I don't have the hours, and I certainly don't have the money to get a CFI and build time with my debt payments. It's over. The only way I'd get a jet job is if I do it for free because I'm not competitive. Not that it matters because I can barely afford anything far less rent in another city.

 

[mcjohn]

if it is your passion to fly then nothing should stand in your way and I don't think you can judge someone by their choices they make to get there. Ok, let the bullets fly....This is not meant to start a huge debate not did I check my spelling...let it go..

I agree. If someone wants to spend 100k on ratings so be it. I'm trying to make folks see the consequnces of how dangerous that can be...especially if they go to work for a regional that will force them into bankruptcy. Folks have got to have a plan......whether it's the parents or refinancing or whatever.....just be ready to do something.

My way is by far NOT the best way. I'm way behind (hours and job wise) and what I have to show for it is a nice home and wife and lack of debt. That's what I chose. I'd just like folks to have some solid info to make their decision with. And I don't want people to support bad PFT or PFJ. It undermines the industry and lets the rich kids get ahead who sometimes are total tools. I don't see flying as any more a privilage then truck driving....just a lot more interesting and fun.

Boiler up, I am totally missing your point....I just don't see how this is supposed to make sense:

Anybody who leverages themselves enough to buy a house simply to get flight training isn't financially responsible.

 

[positiveg]

I wasn't being 100% serious. As far as a flying career goes, there's no way I'm getting a job. I don't have the hours, and I certainly don't have the money to get a CFI and build time with my debt payments. It's over. The only way I'd get a jet job is if I do it for free because I'm not competitive. Not that it matters because I can barely afford anything far less rent in another city.

Why don't you go to the airport and work washing planes or something in return of your CFI? At least you could get a job when you got your CFI.

 

[Purpledog]

Here's some advice from left field:

Be smart. Find something you're good at, more or less enjoy, and can make a lot of money doing. Buy a plane and fly on the side. Newsflash .. after awhile, flying is just another job .. unfortunately one with low pay and zero stability. Chances are if you make a career out of this "hobby", you'll regret it in the long run .. unless you're the kind of guy who likes being poor, underemployed, and prepetually bored with the mundane routine of flying a bus from airport A to B to C to A, etc.

concur.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

The other night I was switching through the channels on tv and came across the suzi orman show. I think her info is a bit basic but there are people who obviously can not grasp the basics. ($100,000 spent for a job that pays $hit). Well the caller was a young girl who said she had $100,000 in school loans and half of that was from a private bank at 8%(key bank probably) and she was only making $20k.

Suzi: What do you do?
Caller: I am an airline pilot?
Suzi: WHAT? How can you only make $20K? You need to find a new job making more money. Pilots can make much more than that.

Suzi's only answer to this girl was she needed to get money from her family because THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN LIVE OFF $20k WHEN YOU OWE $100,000 in loans.

Don't people research this industry before getting into it? These salesman at schools must be able to sell air conditioners to eskimos because they sure are making suckers out of a whole lot of people. Sounds like the best thing to happen to this industry is key bank getting out of the aviation loan business. At least then these suckers will have a harder time finding money.

 

[Fugawe]

The other night I was switching through the channels on tv and came across the suzi orman show. I think her info is a bit basic but there are people who obviously can not grasp the basics. ($100,000 spent for a job that pays $hit). Well the caller was a young girl who said she had $100,000 in school loans and half of that was from a private bank at 8%(key bank probably) and she was only making $20k.

Suzi: What do you do?
Caller: I am an airline pilot?
Suzi: WHAT? How can you only make $20K? You need to find a new job making more money. Pilots can make much more than that.

Suzi's only answer to this girl was she needed to get money from her family because THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN LIVE OFF $20k WHEN YOU OWE $100,000 in loans.

Don't people research this industry before getting into it? These salesman at schools must be able to sell air conditioners to eskimos because they sure are making suckers out of a whole lot of people. Sounds like the best thing to happen to this industry is key bank getting out of the aviation loan business. At least then these suckers will have a harder time finding money.

This is a great post, unfortunately most will ignore the point because many are convinced that they should follow their passion and fly - no matter what the expense. Goofy logic, because most would not think like this if spending $100,000 any other way.

BTW, to a previous post.........a home purchase is not an 'investment'. An investment is something that will bring in positive cash flow. A home is a semi-smart purchase, but it's not an investment. Realtors, banks, and the average worker have been sold the home 'investment' idea for years. If you treated it like a business, you'd carry it on your books as a monthly expense with no return........then years later sell it at a profit. It's an appreciating asset, but not an investment because it cost you negative monthly cash flow...........and cash flow is king!

Fugawe

 

[NEDude]

Be smart. Find something you're good at, more or less enjoy, and can make a lot of money doing. Buy a plane and fly on the side. Newsflash .. after awhile, flying is just another job .. unfortunately one with low pay and zero stability. Chances are if you make a career out of this "hobby", you'll regret it in the long run .. unless you're the kind of guy who likes being poor, underemployed, and prepetually bored with the mundane routine of flying a bus from airport A to B to C to A, etc. Really, I never could understand how someone could do this stuff for a living unless they're very easily entertained/challenged.

Not bad advice. But personally I am tired of hearing guys who have spent their entire adult lives in aviation complaining and wanting to quit and find a "real job". I am a career changer. I worked in a couple of different industries before flying professionally (I got my private while still in high school). I made very good money in my last job. But I spent hours every week in rush hour traffic. Spent hours upon hours staring at data on a computer screen sitting in a cubical. Took a lot of work home at night and weekends. And spent a lot of time riding around in the back of airliners while on business trips. And generally hated my work.

A couple of truths for those of you who have never worked in the "real world":

- Nobody makes good money working 40 hours a week. Most decent paying careers require a minimum of 50-60 per week in the office, and many more hours brining your work home.

- Unless you work for McDonalds, stability does not exist in the USA these days.

- With every job you will worry about pay raises, career progression and retirement security.

- Every job is requiring more work for less money these days, even lawyers and doctors. The rich doctor who spends hours on the golf course is about as rare as the rich 747 captain. Most doctors these days make less than 100k and work for HMOs. Many private practices are failing. Most lawyers are staffers at mid-sized firms making high five figures - about what captains at most decent regionals end up making. (Yes I grew up around a lot of doctors and lawyers).

Basically every job has its positives and negatives. Most of the stuff we deal with in aviation is the same that you'd deal with in any career. Thankfully I have seen the other world and do know what I am missing. The grass isn't greener on the other side.

But you know what is a cool job? Working in collegiate athletics administration. That is a job I'd go back to. If only it paid decent money.

 

[BoilerUP]

Boiler up, I am totally missing your point....I just don't see how this is supposed to make sense:

I'll try to make it REAL easy this time:

Having debt is sometimes called "being leveraged". Where I come from, $100,000 will buy a small home. You spent enough money on your flight training to buy a house, and you financed that money. For all intents and purposes, you could be a homeowner now with the debt you carried - but all you have are some hours in the logbook and some certificates in your wallet.

You leveraged yourself to the point of being able to buy a home so you could get flight training.

Make sense now?


Fugawe - thanks for the economics lesson, I admit its been 4+ years so my terminology is probably a bit off...but you understood what I meant...

 

[Fugawe]

I'll try to make it REAL easy this time:

Fugawe - thanks for the economics lesson, I admit its been 4+ years so my terminology is probably a bit off...but you understood what I meant...

BoilerUP,

Yeah, I do see you get it......no lesson intended actually, I didn't refer back to see that you'd mentioned the 'investment' idea - I just remembered reading it somewhere here.

I appreciate your comments and the leverage idea. Leverage is a key to wealth -- most never understand this. Leverage moves you along, cash flow finally frees you.

What's frustrating here is that it's obvious that many want to try to force fllying into their lives and are willing to take huge financial hits to make it work. This is one of the reasons so many are willing to fly for peanuts.

With just a little patience, some financial education, and a little cash most could invest, learn leverage and weather the pain of any start-up job. Unfortunately the 'have-it-now' crowd wants it all now.......problem is they'll pay their whole lives for it with below avg earnings, below avg returns, and debt. They'll justifiy it and chalk it up as 'living their passion'.

Ah, but none of us ever listened did we? Que sera sera.

Fugawe

 

[mcjohn]

I'll try to make it REAL easy this time:

You spent enough money on your flight training to buy a house, and you financed that money. For all intents and purposes, you could be a homeowner now with the debt you carried - but all you have are some hours in the logbook and some certificates in your wallet.

You leveraged yourself to the point of being able to buy a home so you could get flight training.

Make sense now?

WTF!? No...you make no sense.....I think you're talking to the wrong guy.
Please refer to the original statements I made when I created this thread:

Aaaanyway, I came close to going to places like those above but made the decision to take that 100k and buy a house instead and here's the result:

1. Found an awesome woman and married her (they like dudes w/ houses). She splits the bills w/ me. Don't shack up or get married just to split the bills BUT do enjoy the financial freedom you gain after doing so.
2. Took my extra money and chipped away at ratings here and there and where ever I thought the deal was good and became a CFI.
3........

Where in my post did I say I spent enough money on my flight training to buy a house? All my ratings including time building cost me around 30k. I took the time to research places so I knew I was getting a good deal.

I hate to keep beating the old horse here but could you please figure out who it is you are really trying to refer to?? It would make this thread, along with your posts, a lot more meaningful.

 

[BoilerUP]

*sigh* I am responding to you.

Somebody (you I believe) had mentioned something about spending 100k for flight training, so I said the following, not towards anybody in particular:

Anybody who leverages themselves enough to buy a house simply to get flight training isn't financially responsible.

To which you responded:

O.K. So I'm not financially responsible? What makes you think anyone would buy a house SIMPLY TO GET FLIGHT TRAINING? That the dumbest thing I've heard so far today. You make no sense. Think of every reason you've heard throughout your life of why people buy houses.
Why don't you share YOUR ways of the most financially responsible way to get flight training?!

So I assumed you had spent 100k (enough to buy a house) on your flight training because you immediately got defensive when I mentioned doing that was not a financially responsible decision. Why would you get defensive otherwise?

You need to chill out and look at the big picture. I am making plenty of sense and plenty of people are understanding, and even if you didn't spend $100,000 on your training (good on you!) there is still insight to be gained.

 

[BoilerUP]

What a big stupid farking misunderstanding...

 

[hoop]

Not bad advice. But personally I am tired of hearing guys who have spent their entire adult lives in aviation complaining and wanting to quit and find a "real job". I am a career changer. I worked in a couple of different industries before flying professionally (I got my private while still in high school). I made very good money in my last job. But I spent hours every week in rush hour traffic. Spent hours upon hours staring at data on a computer screen sitting in a cubical. Took a lot of work home at night and weekends. And spent a lot of time riding around in the back of airliners while on business trips. And generally hated my work.

A couple of truths for those of you who have never worked in the "real world":

- Nobody makes good money working 40 hours a week. Most decent paying careers require a minimum of 50-60 per week in the office, and many more hours brining your work home.

- Unless you work for McDonalds, stability does not exist in the USA these days.

- With every job you will worry about pay raises, career progression and retirement security.

- Every job is requiring more work for less money these days, even lawyers and doctors. The rich doctor who spends hours on the golf course is about as rare as the rich 747 captain. Most doctors these days make less than 100k and work for HMOs. Many private practices are failing. Most lawyers are staffers at mid-sized firms making high five figures - about what captains at most decent regionals end up making. (Yes I grew up around a lot of doctors and lawyers).

Basically every job has its positives and negatives. Most of the stuff we deal with in aviation is the same that you'd deal with in any career. Thankfully I have seen the other world and do know what I am missing. The grass isn't greener on the other side.

But you know what is a cool job? Working in collegiate athletics administration. That is a job I'd go back to. If only it paid decent money.

NEDude,

Good post.

I have found this thread to be interesting. I've always wanted to fly, but never really thought it was a good return on the investment (civilian). When I started flying, it was for the shear fun of it.... doing some sight-seeing, $100 hamburger, etc.... Then, the bug bit me...... I thought about turning it into a career. Luckily, I stumbled across this board and saw the good, the bad, and the ugly parts of aviation.

I've given much thought to the career, and from where I stand, it's just not viable. I'm 34 years old, got a decent gubment job; I'm not getting rich, but not on food stamps either. I have done like many folks before me...... paid as I went. Took me 1 1/2 years to get my private, but not really in any hurry. Sure, I could have completed it way faster if I took out a loan, but couldn't justify it. I still have the ocassional pipe dream of flying corporate, but I figure at the rate I'm going, I'll be 50 years old before I have the hours and ratings to be somewhat competitive. It just astounds me that someone would pay 100K for their ratings. Even if I went that route, got my ratings, and had the hours, it would be a HUGE leap backwards in QOL for the next 10 years.

Did I miss my ship somewhere? Naa, I don't think so. I'm just following the path, and enjoying the journey. I would like to continue with my ratings, and hopefully be and instructor one of these days. That would give me a good excuse to keep me in the game, enjoy the flying, and incentive to keep learning. I think there are a ton of kids coming out of these pilot mills that will never even come close to a return on their investment. All they have to look forward to is an ugly credit history, and a lot of grief.

I guess my whole point to this long-winded post is to have a plan. Always leave yourself an out. I firmly believe in following your dreams, just do so wisely. If I were a high school senior, and could do it all over again, I would have gone in the military. I think that is without a doubt, the biggest "springboard" a young person could have these days.

 

[FN FAL]

These salesman at schools must be able to sell air conditioners to eskimos because they sure are making suckers out of a whole lot of people.

Making suckers? Hahahaha..."a sucker is born every minute".

I just need to figure a way to get to these "suckers" with the 100,000.00 dollar itch before the flight schools get their money.

All the flight school is doing is telling the "mark" exactly what they wan't to hear and then extracting a check.

Here's my offer...I'll tell you what you'd most exactly want to hear and I'll do it at a discount. My price? $50,000.00 USD. It's a bargain!