Strike Vote Called For at NetJets

[fracstar]

hahaha

 

[El Chupacabra]

Hell no I don't want to and won't work more days.


And your math is wrong.

 

[Starman]

Am I wrong? That info came directly from one of your many disgruntled pilots, in fact that was the only good thing he had to say about your company. Do you not get 2 or 3 vacations per year based on time with company? Would each vacation cover a rotation of 7 on surrounded by 7 off on each end? 21 days? Maybe your "brotha" was wrong and my math bad. It doesn't really matter because the point is you work 182 on a 7-7. The point is if you want to compare your salary to mine or anyone elses make sure everything is even.

First of all, only half of our "crews" qualify for the 7 & 7. That actually equates to less than 50% of the pilots using the fuzzy logic that NetJets employs. So more than half of our pilots get WAY less time off than your equation.

Secondly, a 7 day vacation is just that. You don't get to add that time to other time normally off and count it as more vacation. 182 days on - 21 days vacation = 161 days on duty. Even factoring in vacation that's 13.4 days per month working. That's not 13.4 days hanging out at home waiting for the phone to ring. That's 13.4 days on the road putting in average 12 hour days.

I'm not saying that we work harder than others. We work harder than some and not as hard as others. I'm not saying that we don't have good schedules. I am saying that even with the trade-off of a set schedule, we deserve and DEMAND a much higher pay scale that we have now.

The demands put forward by the negotiating commitee are not unreasonable. It will not break this company. It will not force everyone else to take a pay cut. It will however, give the pilots a pay raise that will transform this company from a stepping stone job to a career.

It amuses me to see all the corporate and charter pilots on here talking down our efforts. For every reason in the book, you guys should be behind us 100%. If our salaries are to high, then you'll get more business because of our cost structure. Even if we pick the perfect mix for our salaries, it has to help every pilot in this industry come next salary negotiation time. The only thing I can think of is that a lot of the "pilots" that post on this board couldn't pony up a license if they tried.

 

[Starman]

One other thing. 21 days vacation only comes about after you complete 5 years here. That has to be completed prior to the vacation year starting. For most of us, we didn't see 21 days of vacation until we had almost 6 years total service.

 

[Live4flyng]

17 times 12 equals 204. Subtract (2) five day vacation periods from that and it comes out to 194. Add an involuntary extension each month and 194 + 12 equals 206 days per year worked.


I would say Mr. Fracstard is way off on his math. Maybe he should keep his mouth shut if he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about. Now what were you talking about "comparing" again?

 

[fracstar]

hahaha.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Sorry. My bad. You guys are way under paid. Why would you ever work for a crappy company like that. Good luck. Didn't think to highly of yourselves when interviewing?
​

Exactly. You got it dude...

Whooops you edited your post.

I liked the first one better.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Using netjets logic, if United were to go on strike, United (management) would have to try and make alternative arraingments for their pax. If United were to re-book their pax on American, the American pilots would be scabbing?????????


I think the IBT needs to try again with their attmept to change the definition of "still collecting all benefits". Just because they think it will help their cause, does not justify changing long standing positions to suit your needs.....the IBT must not have much faith in the netjets pilots unity.

As an aside, I have notified my company that I will not fly netjets trips if this situation arises. I feel I am in a position that my job may be spared and if I can help out some pilots...great, however.....you nj pilots should not be so arrogant to expect some pilots who make 2 or 3 times as much as you to lose their jobs for your cause. Many in the corporate world lost their jobs because you guys would do it for less.

NYR
Former base strike chairman for a former airline

PS. I contacted ALPA to get their take on this, it was the first they heard of the situation. I'll post a response when I get one.

PPS. I truly hope you NJA guys get a great contract.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Many in the corporate world lost their jobs because you guys would do it for less..

Mr Ranger,

Good post but I have a question about this statement.


Is this really true. Consider that no matter what the pilots are paid it is an insignificant part of the cost of Full Ownership or fractional ownership. I see what the charges are for the airplane I fly... Double triple or quadruple the pay and it does not seem to be a significant factor.

Isn't the truth that its not the pilot pay... but the cost of the fractional model vs full ownership for certain situations where a couple hundred hrs or less per yr are flown.

Cause if you fly more its less expensive to own your own... and if you fly significantly less its better to charter.

Presently we calculate pilot salaries are 3.5% of revenues. Doubling the salaries would mean pilot salaries are only 7% ot total revenues and would bring us in line with other pilots. I just do not see how our salaries low or high could have been the factor that shutdown flight depts or reduced staffing.

What do you think?

 

[h25b]

The math doesn't really figure in to the contempt out there...

Let me ask you how you'd feel if you were kicked out on the street by a company that went fractional knowing that the pilots now flying your company's people are making about 1/3 what you were making...???...

 

[El Chupacabra]

The math doesn't really figure in to the contempt out there...

Let me ask you how you'd feel if you were kicked out on the street by a company that went fractional knowing that the pilots now flying your company's people are making about 1/3 what you were making...???...

Feelings are one thing.

But the fact is the pilot salaries have nothing to do with whether I am kicked out on the street or not. Once I figured that out, I would stop blaming them. Assuming I am a logical person.

 

[h25b]

Feelings are one thing.

But the fact is the pilot salaries have nothing to do with whether I am kicked out on the street or not. Once I figured that out, I would stop blaming them. Assuming I am a logical person.

First of all let us cease with the logic talk, especially since this scab threat defies all logic...

Second of all salary may play only up to 7% role on your operation, but in ours for example our salaries are more in the range of 15-20% ...

 

[FAcFriend]

Fractional is more than an nice airplane ride.

Corporate flight departments work with travel departments, HR depts etc. to make arrangements. Sometimes the secretary makes ground transporation etc happen while the pilots are filing flight plans etc.

The thing that makes fractional work is all the behind the scenes support. The customer is paying for someone else to be sure everything else from hotel to ground is taken care of- in the manner they like best.

Overhead is higher in fractional than in corporate flight departments AND in corp flight you share resources like HR with the co.

In fractional the customer pays for HR, accounting functions etc.

 

[Live4flyng]

First of all let us cease with the logic talk, especially since this scab threat defies all logic...

Second of all salary may play only up to 7% role on your operation, but in ours flor example our salaries are more in the range of 15-20% ...

Then why are you flying for Netjets?

 

[Live4flyng]

The customer is paying for someone else to be sure everything else from hotel to ground is taken care of- in the manner they like best.

Are you sure about this?

Overhead is higher in fractional than in corporate flight departments

It is? How?

 

[El Chupacabra]

yeah so ... its not pilot salaries that make the difference in the choice of fractional or in house flight department.

 

[h25b]

Then why are you flying for Netjets?

Uh... I'm not.

Actually to clarify (just putting together April's results) , crew salary came in at 19.2 % (excluding benefits) of the total cost of last month's operations. The fact that your crews are vastly underpaid might not be the sole factor on why some department's close and go fractional, but it sure doesn't make it easier on us.

 

[Live4flyng]

Ok, then why are you flying sell-off trips for Netjets if you despise them so much?

 

[El Chupacabra]

Uh... I'm not.

Actually to clarify (just putting together April's results) , crew salary came in at 19.2 % (excluding benefits) of the total cost of last month's operations. The fact that your crews are vastly underpaid might not be the sole factor on why some department's close and go fractional, but it sure doesn't make it easier on us.

If we were paid as much or even more than you are paid... it would not be a factor.

The main factor is the aquisition costs of a WHOLE new airplane and the fact that this cost and pilot salaries are divided by 4 for a quartershare and by 8 for an eighth share.

So even if an CE-500 pilot were paid 120K per yr... the 1/4 share owners share of that cost is only $30K. Since this pilot is only actually paid 60K the actual cost to the 1/4 share owner is only 15K. I don't think flight departments shutdown over 15K difference.

If a flight department shuts down it is not likely that pilot salaries (yours or mine) have anything to do with it.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

For what its worth this particular NetJets pilot is disgusted with the unions position on who would be considered a SCAB.

For those not keeping track that would be... any pilot involved with flying a "NetJets transaction"

Not just charter pilots covering our trips, but all of NJI as well...

I can't think of a better way for us to lose all credibility than with this position.

(now I am curious if I will get an "educational PM" for this post)

 

[fracstar]

good luck.

 

[FLYLOW22]

The question should be, " Will Mr Boisture's ego prevent Netjets from going forward as the company it can be?"

That combined with his lack of personal self control and bursts of anger and rage... My guess? Yes.

 

[FLYLOW22]

YES I said SCABBING, they work for 1/3 the wages they should. Union bull$hit or not--- thats a SCAB. Hence they have no credibility now.

Define your version of scabbing if you would please.

The definition accepted by all unionized air carriers presently includes the existence of strike picket line to be crossed which, to date, has never materialized on this GA side of the airfield. That makes it hard for NJA pilots to be SCABS unless they were SCABS from a previous airline.

All pilots out there on furlough flying charter or yearning to someday work for any unionized 121 carrier need to remember that in selecting the choice as to whether to cross a NJA picket line and fly NJA owners during a NJA strike. It will affect their future recall rights and hiring potential.

G, you bash NJA pilots for the past 10 years when, in fact, most of us have only been here for the past 5 tops. We are now taking large steps to close that gap between our pay grades. The pay here sucks ass. Period. It's a crap job. Why would you not support us in trying to change that and in the process "raise the bar" for this entire sector of the industry? Do you not want the positive effects that raising of the bar would create on paychecks for thousands of corporate and frax pilots?

 

[FLYLOW22]

For what its worth this particular NetJets pilot is disgusted with the unions position on who would be considered a SCAB.

For those not keeping track that would be... any pilot involved with flying a "NetJets transaction"

Not just charter pilots covering our trips, but all of NJI as well...

I can't think of a better way for us to lose all credibility than with this position.

(now I am curious if I will get an "educational PM" for this post)

Scott,

If you have any questions at all please go to one of your MEC members, Stewards, P2P reps or the SPC.

www.njasap.com

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Define your version of scabbing if you would please.

The definition accepted by all unionized air carriers presently includes the presence of strike picket line to be crossed which, to date, has never existed on this side of the airfield. That makes it hard for NJA pilots to be SCABS unless they were SCABS from a previous airline.

All pilots out there on furlough flying charter or yearning to someday work for any unionized 121 carrier need to remember that in selecting the choice as to whether to cross a NJA picket line and fly NJA owners during a NJA strike. It will affect future recall rights and hiring potential.

G, you bash NJA pilots for the past 10 years when, in fact, most of us have only been here for the past 5 tops. We are now taking large steps to close that gap between our pay grades. The pay here sucks ass. Period. It's a crap job as . Why would you not support us in trying to change that and in the process "raise the bar" for this entire sector of the industry? Do you not want the positive effects that raising of the bar would create on paychecks for thousands of corporate and frax pilots?

Good god, raise the bar? You buried the bar years ago.

Get salarys up? You have to at least double yours to get back to the lower side of industry standard!!!!

Wake up man! You set the bar so low you guys actually think you are doing good with your dreams of doubled salarys!!!

WOW!

I already told you what I think a SCAB is. Most of us dont need a Union to define that, its common sense. You SCABS know who you are

Save your threats, read on here...nobody is intimidated and youre losing support real fast..you would be smart to rethink your position.

 

[LXJ31]

Why would you not support us in trying to change that and in the process "raise the bar" for this entire sector of the industry? Do you not want the positive effects that raising of the bar would create on paychecks for thousands of corporate and frax pilots?

Thats a little fuzzy for me, be specific; What support are you looking for? You seriously want a guy who works for a small 135 outfit to tell his boss that he will not fly a NJA sell-off, something they had routinely done before, and fall on his sword? Specifically, what benefits would he receive in that situation, seeing that he is not a member of any union?

 

[FamilyGuy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sctt@NJA
For what its worth this particular NetJets pilot is disgusted with the unions position on who would be considered a SCAB.

For those not keeping track that would be... any pilot involved with flying a "NetJets transaction"

Not just charter pilots covering our trips, but all of NJI as well...

I can't think of a better way for us to lose all credibility than with this position.

(now I am curious if I will get an "educational PM" for this post)



Scott,

If you have any questions at all please go to one of your MEC members, Stewards, P2P reps or the SPC.

www.njasap.com

Yep....it only took 92 minutes before you got your 'guidance'. Good luck.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Good god, raise the bar? You buried the bar years ago.

I personally did this myself? I think not. We all know where the bar is set and NJA pilots are woefully below that mark. Management made many promises over the years regarding pay which never came true. The money is here... they just want it for themselves. Nothing new. If we continue to drag the bar down, the entire industry will continue to be affected... your W2 as well.

Get salarys up? You have to at least double yours to get back to the lower side of industry standard!!!!

Agreed. Are you in? Help us. We (labor) will all benefit in the long run.

I already told you what I think a SCAB is. Most of us dont need a Union to define that, its common sense. You SCABS know who you are.

SCAB is a Union term. We did need Unions to define SCAB. The defnition of a SCAB is one who crosses an existing picketline for one's own well being. This SCAB phenomenon has been recorded several ways over the years in the form of replacement workers, line crossers from the existing seniority list and even hired charter crews.

Save your threats, read on here...nobody is intimidated and youre losing support real fast..you would be smart to rethink your position.

I think the pilots of NJA would rather try to educate than intimidate. We all stand to gain more together as professional colleugues than divided factions in the same business.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Thats a little fuzzy for me, be specific; What support are you looking for? You seriously want a guy who works for a small 135 outfit to tell his boss that he will not fly a NJA sell-off, something they had routinely done before, and fall on his sword? Specifically, what benefits would he receive in that situation, seeing that he is not a member of any union?

Specific... Let me try here. If I were scheduled to fly a trip during a NJA Pilot strike then I would be sure that it was NOT a NetJets sponsored trip. All you have to do is ask the right questions of your company and of several other outlets available though the various FBO vendors. If I were not satisfied with the answers given then I would hold off on making a few bucks on a charter flight in lieu of not having to worry with the spectre of a SCAB label. This is not an easy situation for the the industry to deal with but it is coming.

What to tell your boss? I would openly ask if they intend to operate NJA trips during a NJA strike. I would offer my objections to flying those trips in a polite way. I would try to emphasize that it might be better to wait until the storm stettles prior to vending for NJA. At least I would have communicated my true feelings to the powers that be. I don't personally believe that the majority of pilots WANT to SCAB. It happens becasue of various pressures (mostly econimic) exerted on labor from management.

Benefits received? A clean SCAB record. A clear conscience. Also a feeling of confidence in knowing that you did your part to protect the careers of the pilots in this industry. If you are looking for some sort of strike pay or tangable item in return I'm afraid you most likely won't find much. Benefits like that come only with Union membership but that's only a couple of Union Cards away if you wish.

 

[Kingairrick]

FLYLOW22: PUT DOWN THE CUP. There's something in the cool-aid.