Status of Flight Options Including Fleet Plans

[cjdriver]

Spoke with a flops guy yesterday, he was happy as a clam.

 

[ProFracPilot]

Of the E170 model that use to sit next to the Red Couch in the Flight Options lobby.

The E170 or Lineage wasn't yet a gleam in Embraer's eye when that model was sitting in the lobby. What you saw sitting by the couch was a model of a Fairchild-Dornier Envoy 7 (nee 728Jet). Prototypes were built, but none flew before Fairchild-Dornier went bankrupt.

 

[Freedom]

You're Correct...

The E170 or Lineage wasn't yet a gleam in Embraer's eye when that model was sitting in the lobby. What you saw sitting by the couch was a model of a Fairchild-Dornier Envoy 7 (nee 728Jet). Prototypes were built, but none flew before Fairchild-Dornier went bankrupt.

My mistake. Different Model, same principle.

Hope you guys get the Phenom 300. Its the only thing I can see that will overcome all the negative perceptions to a potential investor (fractional owner).

What alot of Flight Options Pilots don't seem to understand, is the amount of leverage you now have to secure a contract.

No way will financing be secured for those airplanes unless a viable business plan can be proven that will not end up with Options in bankrupcy. That cannot happen without a Pilot Contract settled.

You guys have more power than you think.

Good Luck!


Freedom is Not Free

 

[ProFracPilot]

Hope you guys get the Phenom 300. Its the only thing I can see that will overcome all the negative perceptions to a potential investor (fractional owner).

I agree. The Phenom 300 is a key component to FlOps future success. But in the end, we are a SERVICE provider. I think owners look for value (however you want to define it) followed closely by how well they're serviced. If the service sucks at any level of the Owner experience (Owners Services, OCC, flight crews, aircraft dispatch availability, etc) then these people will spend their $$ elsewhere. We can win or lose business on the service side. Since the only control I have is at the end point of the service experience, I will continue to do ALL I can to assure the service our owners are provided is an exemplary one.

 

[skyismyoffice]

Spoke with a flops guy yesterday, he was happy as a clam.

Now that's funny!:laugh:

 

[clickclickboom]

I can sum up The history of flight options in one sentence:

TRIPPING OVER $100 BILLS TO PICK UP PENNIES.....

 

[AceCrackshot]

My mistake. Different Model, same principle.

Hope you guys get the Phenom 300. Its the only thing I can see that will overcome all the negative perceptions to a potential investor (fractional owner).

What alot of Flight Options Pilots don't seem to understand, is the amount of leverage you now have to secure a contract.

No way will financing be secured for those airplanes unless a viable business plan can be proven that will not end up with Options in bankrupcy. That cannot happen without a Pilot Contract settled.

You guys have more power than you think.

Good Luck!


Freedom is Not Free

This will take a requisite number of the remaining pilots' balls to drop and for them to grow something above their brain stem.

Neither will happen. The leverage existed from the time of the vote on...those who didn't see it then are too stupid or too scared to see.

I'm sorry if I sound bitter, but I spent far too long explaining the far too obvious to far too many people at FLOPS.

 

[dime line]

I'm sorry if I sound bitter, but I spent far too long explaining the far too obvious to far too many people at FLOPS

Dammmmmmm, if that isn't one of the most true statements on this board, I don't know what is.

 

[Galaxy]

More got cut off today.... down to 322.

 

[HSDriver]

Spoke with a flops guy yesterday, he was happy as a clam.

Wonder if he is still happy today?

 

[glasspilot]

One more time...

Fear and Greed.

Those are the two most basic emotions that management LOVES to use against a pilot group. Using those two emotions management can push through ANYTHING!

Management splits the group into thirds. If they can appeal to 2 of the thirds they win.

Let's say they want paycuts. They use greed to appeal to the top third. They say, "if you vote for paycuts we can secure financing for bigger planes. You'll make MORE MONEY!" So the top third votes in the paycuts knowing they will benifit with bigger equipment and hence...more money.

Management uses fear on the bottom third. They say, "hey, if we don't get paycuts then pilots are going to lose their jobs!". The bottom third think about the prospect of standing in an unemployment line and vote for the paycut.

The only rational and objective group is the middle third but they are out voted 2 to 1 and guess what happens? The pilot group votes in their own paycuts!

This technique can be used for anything. Beware!

Good luck Flops. I mean it...

gp.

 

[cjdriver]

Wonder if he is still happy today?

Wow, 322. Yeah, still good. Best wishes for all though. These are humbling times for all of us.

 

[Fedmagnet]

This will take a requisite number of the remaining pilots' balls to drop and for them to grow something above their brain stem.

Neither will happen. The leverage existed from the time of the vote on...those who didn't see it then are too stupid or too scared to see.

I'm sorry if I sound bitter, but I spent far too long explaining the far too obvious to far too many people at FLOPS.

Truely Exhausting! Trying to point out the obvious to someone chasing karrots or selling their souls to get special treatment.

"Painting the model in the lobby orange" Priceless!
Some people saw that model for what it truely was, others signed up for the company neuter and labottomy program served with cool-aid.

Good luck to the families and crews recently let go.

 

[B19 Flyer]

One more time...

Fear and Greed.

Those are the two most basic emotions that management LOVES to use against a pilot group. Using those two emotions management can push through ANYTHING!

Management splits the group into thirds. If they can appeal to 2 of the thirds they win.

Let's say they want paycuts. They use greed to appeal to the top third. They say, "if you vote for paycuts we can secure financing for bigger planes. You'll make MORE MONEY!" So the top third votes in the paycuts knowing they will benifit with bigger equipment and hence...more money.

Management uses fear on the bottom third. They say, "hey, if we don't get paycuts then pilots are going to lose their jobs!". The bottom third think about the prospect of standing in an unemployment line and vote for the paycut.

The only rational and objective group is the middle third but they are out voted 2 to 1 and guess what happens? The pilot group votes in their own paycuts!

This technique can be used for anything. Beware!

Good luck Flops. I mean it...

gp.

It's clear that you would rather see everybody be unemployed. The union creates the split, not management. It's union greed and fear that split the pilot group, and the union thinking will always preserve the top third and high pay over lower pay and more jobs.

The payroll bucket is the same size, it all depends on how it's split. Smaller portions feed more families.

The union way though is to feed fewer families like kings rather than more families and sustain a reasonable way of life.

 

[I'Zheet M'Drarz]

"sustain a reasonable way of life"

I figured you for a Capitalist, Sounds a little Socialistic to me.

 

[Fozzy]

"sustain a reasonable way of life"

I figured you for a Capitalist, Sounds a little Socialistic to me.

Didn't an indentured servant have a reasonable way of life.
I guess as long as someone else gets to decide what reasonable is.

 

[CA1900]

The world needs ditch-diggers too, Danny.

 

[AceCrackshot]

It's clear that you would rather see everybody be unemployed. The union creates the split, not management. It's union greed and fear that split the pilot group, and the union thinking will always preserve the top third and high pay over lower pay and more jobs.

The payroll bucket is the same size, it all depends on how it's split. Smaller portions feed more families.

The union way though is to feed fewer families like kings rather than more families and sustain a reasonable way of life.

I'd happily see everyone at FLOPS unemployed, and all Fractional Pilots receive better wages and benefits.

B19, like most management believes in socialism for himself in the form of guarenteed wages and benefits, bonuses, and job security. But, he believes in capitalism for you, in the form of you losing your job to make up for mismanagement (see also, History of Flight Options, 2003 to present.)

 

[GooseHZ]

....

Thats a bit much Ace...

 

[AceCrackshot]

Thats a bit much Ace...

Probably true, but the simply fact is that last 7 years of aviation history suggests that keeping dying companies around well past their sell-by day, hasn't helped the profession much. This is doubly true when concessions by the pilot group (usually the lions' share of the concessions) don't contain snap-back conditions or the like.

What good is done by saving a few guys careers sitting at the top of heap, if we do by cutting the jobs of everyone at the bottom, and reducing the negotiating position of those who remain?

I don't think that anyone can deny there has been an overall downward racheting effect on pilot pay and wages since 2000 (with the exception of NJ.)

So, if we want the profession to prosper on a twenty or thirty year timeframe, there's going to be pain, and some are going to feel more pain than others. In the case of 1108 and early days of unionization at FLOPS, there was acceptance in principle of a union seniority list. Now, there were a thousand miles between that and some kind of working fractional pilot seniority list that was usable, but we accomplished more on that score with a 30 minute phone call than ALPA did from 1978 onward.

In the specific case of FLOPS, the ball is, and has been, in the FLOPS pilots' court. Too many simply lack the courage to swing. Pain was someone else, as long as the had their left seat in a Hawker or X or large cabin. Now, that's being threatened. I think that Winston Churchill stated it best when he said:

"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."

 

[corpflunkie]

It's clear that you would rather see everybody be unemployed. The union creates the split, not management. It's union greed and fear that split the pilot group, and the union thinking will always preserve the top third and high pay over lower pay and more jobs.

The payroll bucket is the same size, it all depends on how it's split. Smaller portions feed more families.

The union way though is to feed fewer families like kings rather than more families and sustain a reasonable way of life.

B19

There is part of me that sees the good in a union, there is also part that sees the negative. Right now, with people losing their jobs left and right, we do not need to hear more of your "I told you so" attitude.

 

[holden1]

So did FlightOptions get sold back to Ricci today?

 

[GooseHZ]

nice speech there ace

Very good pionts...im doing my part...are you?

 

[ProFracPilot]

In the specific case of FLOPS, the ball is, and has been, in the FLOPS pilots' court. Too many simply lack the courage to swing.

That's quite a missive you've assembled there, Ace. But I'm a little unclear about something. Are we playing basketball or are we golfing?

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19

There is part of me that sees the good in a union, there is also part that sees the negative. Right now, with people losing their jobs left and right, we do not need to hear more of your "I told you so" attitude.

My "told you so" attitude goes along with the statement "be careful what you ask for". It proves my point about how miserable unions make things for pilots and those involved with unions.

The union reach goes far beyond wages and work rules, it changes how a company operates and destroys the fabric of how great companies operate.

Three years ago I made the statements that those bringing the union into FLOPS were going to suffer ongoing turmoil, stagnate the company and not have a contract three years down the road. Nothing would be gained except the pain.

All of that has come true. Yes, I told you so.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Probably true, but the simply fact is that last 7 years of aviation history suggests that keeping dying companies around well past their sell-by day, hasn't helped the profession much. This is doubly true when concessions by the pilot group (usually the lions' share of the concessions) don't contain snap-back conditions or the like.


What good is done by saving a few guys careers sitting at the top of heap, if we do by cutting the jobs of everyone at the bottom, and reducing the negotiating position of those who remain?

I don't think that anyone can deny there has been an overall downward racheting effect on pilot pay and wages since 2000 (with the exception of NJ.)

So, if we want the profession to prosper on a twenty or thirty year timeframe, there's going to be pain, and some are going to feel more pain than others. In the case of 1108 and early days of unionization at FLOPS, there was acceptance in principle of a union seniority list. Now, there were a thousand miles between that and some kind of working fractional pilot seniority list that was usable, but we accomplished more on that score with a 30 minute phone call than ALPA did from 1978 onward.

In the specific case of FLOPS, the ball is, and has been, in the FLOPS pilots' court. Too many simply lack the courage to swing. Pain was someone else, as long as the had their left seat in a Hawker or X or large cabin. Now, that's being threatened. I think that Winston Churchill stated it best when he said:

"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."

The lions share of concessions does not occur with the pilot group. By the time the concessions occur, the company has shed hundreds, if not thousands of non-union jobs and has slashed expenses to the point where there is no more to slash. Union concessions are never done in time to allow the company to maintain the best resources. They happen when the company is faced with bankruptcy and the union realizes that either they need to finally suck it up or a judge is going to throw out the CBA.

Your quote by Churchill is appropriate, but it has nothing to do with unions. It does however reflect the company stance on survival when a union has invaded a company and has beaten a company into submission. Union members don't understand how much they destroy and the pain they cause to innocent bystanders until it's too late. Even then, they whine about concessions that allow them to retain a six figure income while having no compassion for those scraping by at half the pay rate who actually lose their jobs to pay for the union CBA.

 

[brokeflyer]

yup tragic. What we really try to do is after they get fired to pay our massive salaries is go to their houses and shoot their dogs and drown the kitty's.

Then we drink all their beer and p1ss in their hats.

 

[TurboHonda]

That's quite a missive you've assembled there, Ace. But I'm a little unclear about something. Are we playing basketball or are we golfing?

Tennis. 10SNE1?

 

[AceCrackshot]

Very good pionts...im doing my part...are you?

I paid dues. I was on the membership committee and highly vocal during the drive. I was part of a number of special projects on behalf of the negotiating committee.

Frankly, its not my fight anymore. I left. Had I stayed, I would have been furloughed.

But, I really, really, want the FLOPS pilot group to succeed. They deserve a contract as good as NJ. They don't deserve to be violated in order to subsidize the travel habits of the richest 1/4 of 1% of Americans.

But, there will be no white knights. I don't know how many times I heard "Maybe NJ will buy us..." with the thought that somehow, that would fix the problems of the FLOPS pilot group.

The NJ guys practically speaking gave us the script to go by to get a contract. All we had to do was follow it. We could barely get the dues-paying number above 50%, and it hurt us when it counted.

 

[AceCrackshot]

The lions share of concessions does not occur with the pilot group. By the time the concessions occur, the company has shed hundreds, if not thousands of non-union jobs and has slashed expenses to the point where there is no more to slash. Union concessions are never done in time to allow the company to maintain the best resources. They happen when the company is faced with bankruptcy and the union realizes that either they need to finally suck it up or a judge is going to throw out the CBA.

Your quote by Churchill is appropriate, but it has nothing to do with unions. It does however reflect the company stance on survival when a union has invaded a company and has beaten a company into submission. Union members don't understand how much they destroy and the pain they cause to innocent bystanders until it's too late. Even then, they whine about concessions that allow them to retain a six figure income while having no compassion for those scraping by at half the pay rate who actually lose their jobs to pay for the union CBA.

Again, another "no value added" post. Are you really a pilot? Do you have any knowledge of either the fractional or larger airline industry? Seriously.

I'd fisk your post, but it would be like shooting cows...theres no sport in it.