Standby Duty at Flex

[gunfyter]

Club Ord,

If you do not HAVE to answer ...

The policy IS in compliance with the rules....

I think its a policy that could only work with a very small pilot group or one with extremely good relations with management.

BW,

I have MANY posts on this topic going back 8 years or so....

The Thread on Response time is good reading.

I have links to several Court Cases (AVIATORS, WHITLOW) etc.. in the posts ....

 

[brokeflyer]

All you have to do is google "Tom Gasta Duty Rest"

who da fck is tom gasta?.....








lol

 

[ArtVandalay]

Lets set this straight:

• I said "man up" and ANSWER the phone. I didn't say go fly with 5 hours of rest.
• In my operation it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a 0300 call. The earliest is 0500.
• There are THOUSANDS of corporate pilots who do exactly what we do and are tied to a pager. Their only protection is "fatigued" to which they can then lose their jobs. Why are you not concerned about their unsafe practices? I'm at least complying with 135 rest rules.
• Why would you trade endless hours in an FBO that happens all the time for protection against a 0300 call that happens once a year if that, when you can easily protect yourself from the same thing by just saying, "sorry, the schedule had me out at 1400 so I stayed up late and now I'm not fit to take the 0500 wheels up."
• I have never advocated flying without adequate rest. My QOL is just fine on the road. My QOL would take a major hit if I had to start going to the airport 5 or more hours early just so my company can force me to answer the phone. I'd rather simply answer the phone.

Say what you want but I'm all for a safe operation where crews are rested. I do not fly fatigued. I do answer my phone after rest periods, as does everyone else I know.

Hey Glass,

If you took the time to actually understand the regs you would realize you have no argument here. Your "rest" ends at the beginning of your next duty assignment. Call the CP and ask him and that is exactly what he'll tell you. 10 hours has nothing to do with anything other than being a minimum required block. So you answering your phone is perfectly fine; however, you are not required to do so until your scheduled rest ends--at the beginning of your next assignment.

NOW. What flex IS doing now with our new "rule" in place is this:

Remember they always put us into rest at 5pm, right? "off duty at 3pm, in rest at 5pm". NOW, they are putting us into rest EXACTLY 10 hours prior to the minimum call time. Example:

noon start---minus 4 hours= 8am --- minus 10 hours= 10PM. So, what they do now is this:

"off duty at 3pm, in rest at 10PM" So, guess what? Now you HAVE to answer your phone until 10PM so, all you heavy beer drinkers can not begin your drinking until 10PM!

Take and Give. that's what the new rule boiled down to; however, it's a start I suppose.

 

[flyinloki]

Thats the cargo way my friend. 24/7 callouts. We survive it. Lol! But then again I hate it!

 

[Ace75]

Hey Glass,

If you took the time to actually understand the regs you would realize you have no argument here. Your "rest" ends at the beginning of your next duty assignment. Call the CP and ask him and that is exactly what he'll tell you. 10 hours has nothing to do with anything other than being a minimum required block. So you answering your phone is perfectly fine; however, you are not required to do so until your scheduled rest ends--at the beginning of your next assignment.

NOW. What flex IS doing now with our new "rule" in place is this:

Remember they always put us into rest at 5pm, right? "off duty at 3pm, in rest at 5pm". NOW, they are putting us into rest EXACTLY 10 hours prior to the minimum call time. Example:

noon start---minus 4 hours= 8am --- minus 10 hours= 10PM. So, what they do now is this:

"off duty at 3pm, in rest at 10PM" So, guess what? Now you HAVE to answer your phone until 10PM so, all you heavy beer drinkers can not begin your drinking until 10PM!

Take and Give. that's what the new rule boiled down to; however, it's a start I suppose.

By taking us off duty 10 hours before rest it has resulted in being on a combined duty + non-assigned duty for more than 14 or even 16 hours, this is an actual example:

Duty on 0900---fly fly fly---released from duty 1800 in rest at 0300, next day trip sheets show 1700 standby.

What is this time between 1800 and 0300? Doesn't it count as duty if I am required to answer my phone (since I am not in rest)? Between 0900 and 0300 is 18 hours of not being in rest, how is this legal?

The reason 0300 is given is because of that new 4 hour change band, 0300+10 hours rest = 1300 which is 4 hours before the 1700 standby. Please enlighten me...

 

[ProFracPilot]

What is this time between 1800 and 0300? Doesn't it count as duty if I am required to answer my phone (since I am not in rest)? Between 0900 and 0300 is 18 hours of not being in rest, how is this legal?

The FAA doesn't care how long you've been "on duty". The reg requires prospective rest (look back) of 10 hours in a 24 hour period. So, as long as you are not assigned a flight beyond the point where you lack the 10 hours of prospective rest, there is no regulatory problem. From 2300-0300 you're available to answer a call, but unavailable to accept a flight. You're not yet in assigned rest (which, by your example, starts at 0300).

 

[Rouge Warrior]

but with 18 of duty your require __ hours off according to the duty time limitations?

(asking)

 

[FalconPilot69]

By taking us off duty 10 hours before rest it has resulted in being on a combined duty + non-assigned duty for more than 14 or even 16 hours, this is an actual example:

Duty on 0900---fly fly fly---released from duty 1800 in rest at 0300, next day trip sheets show 1700 standby.

What is this time between 1800 and 0300? Doesn't it count as duty if I am required to answer my phone (since I am not in rest)? Between 0900 and 0300 is 18 hours of not being in rest, how is this legal?

The reason 0300 is given is because of that new 4 hour change band, 0300+10 hours rest = 1300 which is 4 hours before the 1700 standby. Please enlighten me...

If you are off duty at 1800, you are free to do as you feel (drink adult beverages.) The in rest at 0300 is simply there to prevent the 0300 wake up call with your next scheduled assignment to be at 1700. This gives them their 4 hours plus 2 hours before or after rest block prior to assignment window. However, you still do not have to answer your phone until 1700.

All the change band is designed to do is to stop dispatch from telling you that you have a 1500 show to fly all night and then calling you at 0300 saying change of plans and now you have not had any sleep due to you trying to change you sleep cycle.

 

[FalconPilot69]

but with 18 of duty your require __ hours off according to the duty time limitations?

(asking)

Rogue,

We are limited to 14 hours of scheduled duty with a company option to 16 hours under Part 91 only and also only if all crew members agree. Now if owner delays or wx or whatever happen to change the time frame then after 14 we start having more time added to our rest period.

I hope this helps.

 

[Pacific]

If you are off duty at 1800, you are free to do as you feel (drink adult beverages.) The in rest at 0300 is simply there to prevent the 0300 wake up call with your next scheduled assignment to be at 1700. This gives them their 4 hours plus 2 hours before or after rest block prior to assignment window. However, you still do not have to answer your phone until 1700.

Not so. If you still have time in your 14 hr duty day they can call you back to the airport with a 1.5 hr callout or have you do a drug test or whatever they need. You are still responible to answer your phone or return text messages to acknowledge changes until you go into rest.

 

[FalconPilot69]

I have to respectfully disagree with you.....

Not so. If you still have time in your 14 hr duty day they can call you back to the airport with a 1.5 hr callout or have you do a drug test or whatever they need. You are still responible to answer your phone or return text messages to acknowledge changes until you go into rest.

If you are off duty, you are off duty. They cannot call you for a trip or any drug testing.

 

[Pacific]

You might want to talk to your ACP. I'm not saying it is right, only that it is the policy in place.

 

[Skytaxi]

Pacific is correct. If time in your 14hr day is available you can be called back to the airport, drug test etc. Don't drink until you legally know you can not be used.

 

[glasspilot]

There is no reg about drinking on "duty". The reg says you can't act as a crewmember within 8 hours of consumption and gives a BAC limit of .04.

If you block in, go to the hotel and have a beer it's legal. If the company then calls and says go fly...well you can't, that would be illegal.

 

[Skytaxi]

There is no reg about drinking on "duty". The reg says you can't act as a crewmember within 8 hours of consumption and gives a BAC limit of .04.

If you block in, go to the hotel and have a beer it's legal. If the company then calls and says go fly...well you can't, that would be illegal.

If the company calls you for a drug test while you still have duty left IE 14 hr day then what? What do you tell dispatch when then ask you to go back to the airport because you need to do a trip? Sorry been drinking? Yea you can say that, but you are still on duty and you'll have some explaining to do. Why chance it?
Remember you still belong to the company until your 14 hr day is up OR you are put into rest.

 

[ArtVandalay]

You know, if the company would just NOT CALL during rest, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 

[brokeflyer]

thats why my pager is off...I do them a favor and make it so they don't have to burden that job of calling me.

When you are told you are OFF even if you have time left they cant call you back out for ANYTHING.

On is ON and OFF is OFF.....you are either one or the other, per the regs.

It's really easy to understand.

 

[CL300Pilot]

It sounds like you are both right.

You might want to talk to your ACP. I'm not saying it is right, only that it is the policy in place.

I flew with a guy who had this very issue. They were "off duty" at 1700 lcl and in rest at 0000 lcl. Had they only been "working" for 4 hours, then the company could have called them back to the airport with the 1 1/2 hour call out and fly them using the 1 hour close out as well. The way it was explained is that the company is using these late "in rest" times so that we answer our phones prior to our "in rest" times. If you have worked you 6 hours and they are putting you "off duty", call dispatch and tell them you are gong to dinner and wonder if there is any reason to not have an adult beverage.

I hope this helps clear your issues up.

 

[GREAT LAKES]

:laugh:

That there are pilots that see this is as acceptable is absolutely mind-boggling to me.

You're on duty, or you're on rest. There is no inbetween. If you're on the hook to go to the airport at the company's whim, you're on duty, and it should be treated as such. That doesn't mean you have to rot at the airport -- it just means you have to be available when they want you, and that means you're on duty. There's no reason that duty period can't start at the hotel if they need someone on-call.

I'll give you a real-world example, since this is how NetJets operates. Here's how my day was scheduled today: 6am show for an 8:30am flight. I wake up at 5, and overnight, the company has pushed back the showtime by designating my first hour as "duty at hotel." Great! I turn the ringer back on on the Blackberry, roll over, and go back to sleep for an hour. I'm on duty beginning at 6am, because I now have a present responsibility to report for work should the occasion arise.

I land at what turns out to be our destination for the night around 2pm. The company keeps us on duty at the FBO for three hours, then releases us from duty at 5. Tomorrow's schedule begins with a 10am showtime, which leaves me 17 hours free of duty.

My overnight consists of going out into town, walking around the harbor, stopping to get some Mexican food, enjoying a few Margaritas 'til late, and maybe catching a movie before bed. Why can I do this? Because my rest period is planned, and I know I don't need to wake up before 8. So I plan to go to sleep at midnight, get a good solid rest, and be able to put in a safe day tomorrow.

If you had the same schedule, your phone could ring at 3am, just a few hours after going to bed, and there's no way you'd be safe to fly. Then again, it might not ring. So what do you do?

Do you go to bed at 7pm, just in case? A lot of good that does you -- even if you managed to get to sleep that early, now you're up at 3-4am, and if your original schedule holds, you'll have been up for 6-7 hours before showing up for a potential 14-hour day. You'll have been available for duty to the company for 21 hours (3am to midnight.)

How is that safe?

Your not "on duty" until the company "assigns" you duty. Are you not resting because your phone "might" ring? The FAA has interpreted this both ways, and will not make a hard fast rule. It would be up to a Judge and Jury at that time to see who is right. Could go either way.

It is up to each individual company to interpret the rule and how they wish to handle it. It would certainly be nice if the FAA would put it in black and white IN THE REGS. Not hidden in some obscure legal interpretation that most pilots have no access to.

 

[brokeflyer]

Your not "on duty" until the company "assigns" you duty. Are you not resting because your phone "might" ring? The FAA has interpreted this both ways, and will not make a hard fast rule. It would be up to a Judge and Jury at that time to see who is right. Could go either way.

It is up to each individual company to interpret the rule and how they wish to handle it. It would certainly be nice if the FAA would put it in black and white IN THE REGS. Not hidden in some obscure legal interpretation that most pilots have no access to.

well they finally did.....part 91k

You're either ON or OFF......BLACK and WHITE.

 

[justmeinmsp]

ahhhh yes, finally somebody read 91K. Their answer, we comply with 135 because it is more restrictive. Ha Ha, no it's not

 

[glasspilot]

It must be "black and white" cause this thread has gone on 8 pages.

Here is what I know...you must have 10 hours of rest in the preceding 24 hours starting from the end of your scheduled day. Everything I posted is based on that. That's the law and that's what I do.

You go sit in an FBO and stand proud when the phone rings cause by God, you're off rest and are now required to. Black and White.

 

[wacoflyr]

Despite what would seem to be clear regs, the FAA has left a fair amount of wriggle room. Just recently, of course, lobbyists beat them silly in congress, so those with long intercon flights still have lousy rest rules.
What it comes down to in the frac world is this; who are you willing to let control your rest? If you want control, you can turn off your phone. This might upset management, and cost them a recovery flight, or prevent an owner from a last minute change of plans. Or, you can leave your phone on, giving the power over your rest to management, and trusting them to not abuse the privilege. In this case it is still the pilot's duty to make sure that he or she has adequate legal rest. (management cannot assign nor can the pilot accept...) In my not very humble opinion, it is better to work at a carrier where there is trust. I guess, however, if there is none, you turn the phone off. In the interest of disclosure, I'm an FO, and I'm gonna do what the PIC asks, as long as it is legal and safe.

Regards, Wacoflyr

 

[CA1900]

You go sit in an FBO and stand proud when the phone rings cause by God, you're off rest and are now required to. Black and White.

Who says I'm required to be in an FBO when I'm off rest?

I'm burning my duty day right now in my hotel because I'm not needed at the airport.