Southwest's Artful Approach

[canyonblue]

P.S. Realize that someday, no matter how bad you may want it, SWA will not be on top. That's the reality of this game...

I think this speaks for itself. And you call me selfish. Thanks for your support.

 

[Deacon]

Without SWA..........ATA pilots don't have a job or have already lost it

Without ATA..........SWA pilots don't get ????????A chance to nonrev to Hawaii ?

 

[CaptSeth]

Without SWA..........ATA pilots .....

.....Would have merged with America West and kept most routes and equipment intact.

 

[walkthasky]

[P.S. Realize that someday, no matter how bad you may want it, SWA will not be on top. That's the reality of this game...[/quote]

Man, i wish i could see the future...

 

[SWA/FO]

.....Would have merged with America West and kept most routes and equipment intact.

doubt it..

I will state it again for the record. SOUTHWEST AIRLINES cares about Southwest Airlines, Sometimes you gotas to watch out for number 1. Before any of you sensitive types get all excited that was just an old saying. I think we are #4 now. Yeah baby 554 aircraft by 2012. Take that...

You can't lose control of your company and they cry fowl when another company is not watching out for your interests? or Management can't lose control (enter bankruptcy) of a company and get upset when people (creditors, other companies) go after their $hit!

the SWA/FO

imp:

 

[atafan]

Only a matter of time before we started hearing it.

I would have to say if our growth slows even one bit, I know a lot of guys are going to have a problem with this.

Let's get something straight right now. ATA is NOT taking any flying away from SWA - NONE. We are only flying routes that you can't or do not want to do. SWA has in fact started routes that we flew and we pulled out.

Without SWA..........ATA pilots don't have a job or have already lost it
Without ATA..........SWA pilots don't get ????????A chance to nonrev to Hawaii ?

You are clueless to the reality of the agreement. SWA never wanted to save ATA and hasn't. SWA is USING ATA as a revenue stream and ATA is USING SWA as a revenue stream. If you think that the only benefit this agreement has to your employees is non-reving to Hawaii, then you haven't been listening to a thing Gary Kelly has stated many times.

Without SWA, ATA would have entrenched into the 1996 business model and concentrated more on charter service where we used to dominate and leisure schedules where we skimmed profits from SWA. SWA partnered with Matlin Patterson to squeeze every bit of value out of our expertise and assets. SWA has benefited more from this agreement than ATA and I assure you, you have.

Before this starts into a mudslinging contest.
Admit we are all pawns in this contest and we will only ALL benefit if we play well together and understand that we can all win with this relationship.

If the SWA pilots want the agreement cancelled, that's OK too. I enjoy the life that ATA has afforded my family and the great times I've had over the years and we will do just fine, thank you very much.

 

[mdf]

I keep swearing off this board, but you guys keep sucking me back in!

I Know I have said it before, but it's still too early to be jumping to conclusions on either side. Right now I am viewing it as win win for both. I know ATA has been carved up, but I hope this recent news about projected growth is a sign that things are looking up for the good people of ATA. Right now I think ATA is being molded into a SWA clone, with international capability. We are all on center stage, and how we act now will shape our future. If everybody on both sides would just take the ball, and run with it, the possibilities could be endless. I just don't think it's time to worry about who's doing what flying ect., ect.

 

[SWA/FO]

SWA never wanted to save ATA and hasn't. SWA is USING ATA as a revenue stream and ATA is USING SWA as a revenue stream.

I agree with this statement.

 

[GuppyWN]

Right now I think ATA is being molded into a SWA clone, with international capability.

...... which is the part that makes me the most nervous. "We" create the monster that eats our future growth - possibly.

ATA Fan said it best. We're just pawns in the game. I do trust Mr. Kelly but his responsibility is also to the shareholders to create revenue........ however he can.

Gup

 

[capt. megadeth]

Sometimes you gotas to watch out for number 1.

imp:

REAL easy to say when you are number one and it's other people getting screwed. I hope your wifey has a good job or can go back to one if ever one day you may find yourself eating your words.

 

[atafan]

...... which is the part that makes me the most nervous. "We" create the monster that eats our future growth - possibly.

If I put my SWA shoes on I'd have to agree with you. ATA pilots don't want to become the low labor cost SWA clone either. I'd love to see ATA and SWA pilots get together and work out an agreement that would not allow either group to be used against each other to drive pilot pay lower at SWA.

I can think of a few ideas that our unions could implement, it would be easier and painless if an agreement was hammered out sooner than later.

 

[mdf]

...... which is the part that makes me the most nervous. "We" create the monster that eats our future growth - possibly.

ATA Fan said it best. We're just pawns in the game. I do trust Mr. Kelly but his responsibility is also to the shareholders to create revenue........ however he can.

Gup

I get where your coming from. Maybe I am a dreamer, but right now I am going to just have to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

[SWA/FO]

Capt. Mega...

Are you a dumba$$? Did you read all that I typed? You never heard that saying? "sometimes you got to watch out for number 1". Now, get back to your SORT!

Sometimes you gotas to watch out for number 1. Before any of you sensitive types get all excited that was just an old saying.

lets see what the SWA/FO really typed.....listed above




the SWA/FO

:laugh:

 

[crashpad]

Agreed, no one stays on top for ever....look at UAL. This board's going to melt down when SWA reports a quarterly loss (cerca: June 2008).

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Agreed, no one stays on top for ever....look at UAL. This board's going to melt down when SWA reports a quarterly loss (cerca: June 2008).

Why should it? SWA has reported quarterly losses before....just haven't had any annual losses in 34 years.

Tejas

 

[capt. megadeth]

Capt. Mega...

Are you a dumba$$? Did you read all that I typed? You never heard that saying? "sometimes you got to watch out for number 1". Now, get back to your SORT!




lets see what the SWA/FO really typed.....listed above




the SWA/FO

:laugh:

Why are you asking me? You already think I am. Cocky SOBs really tick me off and that's what comes to mind when I think of you. The thing is is when people lose touch with reality and act like their airline is infallable that's when divine intervention comes in and BOOM. The is problem is people like you wouldn't even learn from a lesson like that. You would probably go about your way with your inflated head. Get my drift or are you too ignorant to get what I am talking about?

 

[SWA/FO]

I just wanted you to confirm what I already know, you are a dumba$$. I guess, you thought it was a trick question. I can't believe I have to explain a common (old) saying. Did you grow up in America?

Anybody want to help me with this one? Where are my SWAPA brothers when you need 'em?

the SWA/FO

imp:

gfy

 

[Flopgut]

Anybody want to help me with this one? Where are my SWAPA brothers when you need 'em?

They are trying to forget you re a coworker.

 

[GuppyWN]

Where are my SWAPA brothers when you need 'em?

Right here bro. Sounded obvious to me. Let's take care of our own house and worry about number one. That's good ole SWA - not Gup or SWA F/O or whomever.

Our mantra around here is to plan for the bad times while in good times. We make a lot of money to fly Herb's red bellied war machines around the sky. We are also the most productive pilot group flying the most productive aircraft flows for the most productive airline in this country.

Funny how you guys all complained how we were "dragging the industry down" just a couple years ago. Now we're at or near the top of the heap and you predict our doom and gloom? Which is it? Are we dragging the industry down or setting the bar?

Gup

 

[pipejockey]

Funny how you guys all complained how we were "dragging the industry down" just a couple years ago. Now we're at or near the top of the heap and you predict our doom and gloom? Which is it? Are we dragging the industry down or setting the bar?

Gup

Please tell me you're not serious! You're not at the "top of the heap" as you say, because your pilot group raised the bar. You are there because everyone else bar came crashing down to compete with the likes of the red bellied war machines, which is quite fitting because it seems they have indeed declared war on what WERE the best airlines to work for. You don't set the bar by bringing others down below you. You set the bar by RAISING it above what the best had, and you sir, are no where near what the best had 5 years ago. So to answer your question....You're dragging the industry down.

 

[SWA/FO]

Funny how you guys all complained how we were "dragging the industry down" just a couple years ago. Now we're at or near the top of the heap and you predict our doom and gloom? Which is it? Are we dragging the industry down or setting the bar?

next they will be picking on the color of our airplanes..!

You don't set the bar by bringing others down below you. You set the bar by RAISING it above what the best had, and you sir, are no where near what the best had 5 years ago. So to answer your question....You're dragging the industry down.

What ever dude, We just can't win...

You brought yourself down, we had nothing to do with your F-uped
management or union. Our checks keep coming in. You don't have to be the highest paid - you just need the money to CONTINUE to roll in.

"Lets blame Southwest Airlines - cus my airline sucks". "Lets blame Southwest Airlines for not watching out for ATA" "Lets make fun of Southwest when things are going great at our airline". "Lets b!tch and call them arrogant and cry like little babies :bawling: when Southwest is doing ok."

the SWA/FO

imp:

 

[canyonblue]

If I put my SWA shoes on I'd have to agree with you. ATA pilots don't want to become the low labor cost SWA clone either. I'd love to see ATA and SWA pilots get together and work out an agreement that would not allow either group to be used against each other to drive pilot pay lower at SWA.

I can think of a few ideas that our unions could implement, it would be easier and painless if an agreement was hammered out sooner than later.

Well said, both post's. Now for those of you are not personally connected to this issue, find another thread to post on. No jacking around, either we merge or get used, both of us.

 

[canyonblue]

The thing is is when people lose touch with reality and act like their airline is infallable that's when divine intervention comes in and BOOM. The is problem is people like you wouldn't even learn from a lesson like that.

Have you read what your fellow Cargo pilots post? Read a little then come back and let us know if you feel the same way about them.

 

[GuppyWN]

ATA Fan, What's your idea of our two groups working together to protect each pilot group?

Gup

 

[atafan]

ATA Fan, What's your idea of our two groups working together to protect each pilot group?

My disclaimer: I'm just throwing ideas up and these ideas are only my own and have not been fully thought out. Please feel free to offer your own debate but don't get bogged down in specifics.

First identify the potential problem that SWA pilots may have with this codeshare agreement in the future.

I understand that SWA has not bought ATA and has not publicly stated they even desire to do this. However. SWA clearly, in my opinion, is directing, through placed management and now our new owners the remolding of ATA to serve SWA. Could SWA decide to slow growth at SWA and support growth at ATA? This is not in the publicly stated plan but I shall remind you that the full scope of the codeshare and alliance has not been revealed either and may never be revealed. Expect the unexpected with Gary Kelly and his team and you will not be surprised.

You may say it can't happen because we have scope! Everything is negotiable and I don't believe for a second that the pilots of any airline, even SWA, will control when and where an airline ultimately will fly after the dusts settles.

One option: ATA and SWA pilots hammer out some sort of pilot integration into one list and any subsequent hiring at either airline would be added to the bottom of this master list should there ever be a buyout. If SWA curtails expansion and ATA expands there could be some protection for SWA pilots and of course this should be a two way street with appropriate fences in place. I know that there are a host of problems with this solution but I still think that the two pilot groups need to get together and at least discuss OPTIONS.

Prepared for incoming "friendly fire".

 

[Pickle]

The ATA MEC chairman tried to talk to his counterpart at SWAPA over a year ago about the potential whipsawwing of the two pilot groups, the SWAPA leader said, in so many words, he didn't really care to hear about it - you ATA ALPA guys worry about ATA, SWAPA will worry about SWA.. This was, like I said, over a year ago, so it was before SWA came into DEN and RSW, and before ATA did pretty much nothing other than SWA codeshare. There is a ready made "b-scale" sitting right there at B-25 and -26, and it is too bad that SWAPA didn't realize ths earlier, because it could (not will, but could) get very ugly.

As to what atafan said about a merging of the two lists, I for one feel that will never ever happen. There are too many "x-factors". There are too many FE/FOs, there are too many people without the 1000 or 1300 turbine PIC or what ever the number is now, there are too many people who have interviewed with SWA 1, 2, or 3 times already and did not get hired.

 

[xanderman]

ummm.... okay.

I think this speaks for itself. And you call me selfish. Thanks for your support.

Look, no matter how I put it you will be defensive towards any comment that may paint SWA in a negative light. Fair enough. However, that does not change the fact that somebody someday will find a way to beat SWA. It has happened all throughout history.

Andy

P.S. the really stand-up thing to do when you're on top is to show a little humility. Just be a man and admit you sounded like an a$$hole when you made the, "They better not take any of our flying"! comment.

 

[SWA/FO]

P.S. the really stand-up thing to do when you're on top is to show a little humility. Just be a man and admit you sounded like an a$$hole when you made the, "They better not take any of our flying"! comment.

Again.... if you want to make the decisions in your house, keep your house in order.

If we even gave 1/2 the crap we got over the years - some of you would be crying. But WE DON'T.

Clearing the air, correcting false statements is not bragging in my book. Stating a union stance or belief is not showing less humility then the next guy.

 

[njcapt]

I hope I don't get asked about this at the open house on the 10th.

Any suggestions for a tactful, honest reply?

Just smile and say "I'd just happy to get a chance to work here".






Then you can meet me in the hotel bar where we can work off the stress.

See you on the 10th, Hal.

 

[Mugs]

If we even gave 1/2 the crap we got over the years - some of you would be crying. But WE DON'T.

Really? Heck I've peaked in on this board since 1997. I have to say that of all the responses I have seen, the one I got when I evidently ticked off one of your "SWAPA Bro's" took the cake. That of course was being informed that I had been "reported" to the guy keeping "the list" of "SWA haters" and would be added to that list. Unbelievable. The thought of one of you guys furiously entering screen names to "the list" after an evening on Flightinfo is just hilarious. Unfortunately in your world, taking the opposite side of an argument involving SWA makes you a "hater." Between that and "the list", it is very cult-like behavior.