BILL LUMBERG
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2005
- Posts
- 2,074
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
Southwest Upgrade
- Thread starter JetFumes
- Start date
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
Roomwithaview
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 6, 2005
- Posts
- 494
Tri
Great to see you here! Good luck on trying to impart some seasoned wisdom on some of this bunch. Guys like OYS already have it figured out. But, hey? What do we have other than 50 years in the AIRLINE business between us.
I'd much rather take career advice from a two time loser fractional pilot who in 2004 would have sold his soul to be at Southwest, RAH, AAI, F9, Mesaba, SKYW or to quote him "fly right seat in B737 for $24/hr. (there's some industry leading wage setting right there)
At least as long as he's here he can tell us which FBO has the hottest girls working behind the counter, how to step and fetch for the bags, and where the coffee and the ice machine is.
Great to see you here! Good luck on trying to impart some seasoned wisdom on some of this bunch. Guys like OYS already have it figured out. But, hey? What do we have other than 50 years in the AIRLINE business between us.
I'd much rather take career advice from a two time loser fractional pilot who in 2004 would have sold his soul to be at Southwest, RAH, AAI, F9, Mesaba, SKYW or to quote him "fly right seat in B737 for $24/hr. (there's some industry leading wage setting right there)
At least as long as he's here he can tell us which FBO has the hottest girls working behind the counter, how to step and fetch for the bags, and where the coffee and the ice machine is.
Roomwithaview
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 6, 2005
- Posts
- 494
Lumberg
The problem was not the captains. The problem at SWA was the fo's that sat on their hands and didn't take advice (from guys like us) that if the rule was changed it would result in a monumental delay to their upgrade and would have a devastating effect on the industry. We were told we were full of $hit. Almost every FO I tried to warn about the Age change rule scoffed at the idea that it would even amount to a ripple.
We (those of us against it) thought we could always count on the fact that ALPA (who, at the time, represented a supermajority of the pilots in the industry) was always adamantly opposed to any rule change. Then, when Prater was elected, voila! All of sudden ALPA found jesus on Age 60 and BINGO! They lobbied to have it changed.
Sure, SWAPA had skin in the game but we had no juice in DC. ALPA made it happen and it's one more way that can be shown that they pulled up the ladder on the ALPA juniority.
Here are the facts. Tri and I were two of the biggest Anti Age change advocates you will find at SWA. We (and many others) beat back the first ill-adviced referendum and fought like animals to keep SWAPA from funding APAAD.
The problem was not the captains. The problem at SWA was the fo's that sat on their hands and didn't take advice (from guys like us) that if the rule was changed it would result in a monumental delay to their upgrade and would have a devastating effect on the industry. We were told we were full of $hit. Almost every FO I tried to warn about the Age change rule scoffed at the idea that it would even amount to a ripple.
We (those of us against it) thought we could always count on the fact that ALPA (who, at the time, represented a supermajority of the pilots in the industry) was always adamantly opposed to any rule change. Then, when Prater was elected, voila! All of sudden ALPA found jesus on Age 60 and BINGO! They lobbied to have it changed.
Sure, SWAPA had skin in the game but we had no juice in DC. ALPA made it happen and it's one more way that can be shown that they pulled up the ladder on the ALPA juniority.
Roomwithaview
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 6, 2005
- Posts
- 494
Rj bum
No offense to corporate/135 guys. Been there done that myself, And, if need be, will do it again. I don't mind doing any of those things. It's part of the job. I never had any aspirations of being a big fancy airline pilot. But, when I flight instructed, flew corporate and charter I knew a few guys just like him. I just think it's funny how he jumps on EVERY thread that says anything about SWA (or I guess anything else for that matter) and immediately classifies himself as the self appointed expert.
No offense to corporate/135 guys. Been there done that myself, And, if need be, will do it again. I don't mind doing any of those things. It's part of the job. I never had any aspirations of being a big fancy airline pilot. But, when I flight instructed, flew corporate and charter I knew a few guys just like him. I just think it's funny how he jumps on EVERY thread that says anything about SWA (or I guess anything else for that matter) and immediately classifies himself as the self appointed expert.
Roomwithaview
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 6, 2005
- Posts
- 494
Tripower455
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2003
- Posts
- 1,357
Well, it wasn't.
Paul Emens and company got nowhere on the hill in spite of many years of trying. All of a sudden, Prater gets in there and decides it needs changing, and it changes within a year. Just like I predicted would happen back in '98 when SWAPA was advocating a "study" to let SW guys, with the blessing of the feds and some help from Johns Hopkins, stay past 60.
This "study" nonsense went to a membership vote, and was defeated by a large margin (over 80% IIRC). This was also the last time SWAPA was honest about the effect changing age 60 would have on upgrade times (there were very specific info pieces telling us exactly how long our upgrade delay was gonna be because of it).
After that vote, they never elaborated to the membership on the bad stuff, they'd just add a question on the end of scheduling surveys etc, asking things like: "should SWAPA continue to work towards changing age 60", never spelling out the effect it would have, so most folks checked the "yes" box. Ignoring the overwhelming NO vote on the "study", SWAPA took these answers as mandate to drop everything for more than a few years and just work on Age 65, to NO effect in DC.
Our age 65 guys like to take the credit, but other than pissing off half of congress (and a few of our pilot group), they had very little effect on this issue.
BILL LUMBERG
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2005
- Posts
- 2,074
Oh I get it.....according to you ALPA made it change.... yet SWAPA LOBBIED for it and pushed the discussion......
SWA is to blame.....ALPA was along for the ride.........
-----------------------------------------------------------
Sunday, July 29, 2007
Many pilots not retiring types
These fliers are pushing Congress to rescind the age 60 retirement rule
By BILL HENSEL JR.
The Houston (TX) Chronicle
Southwest Airlines pilot Paul Emens is fighting to keep his job, along with
the jobs of thousands of his colleagues.
A decade ago, he founded Airline Pilots Against Age Discrimination to try to
change the rule that mandates commercial pilots retire at age 60.
At the time, Emens didn't give much thought to battling both Father Time and
the slow-moving federal bureaucracy. But now, at age 58, he's staring the
age 60 rule right in the face.
"I have one year and 10 months to go, so I try not to count it down," the
longtime pilot said. "I started off on the principle of the thing, and now
it is getting personal."
He and others pushing to end the age 60 rule have more reason for optimism
now, since a change to 65 has been made internationally. But backers of the
bill say doing it through the normal channels at the Federal Aviation
Administration could take two years, so they're pushing Congress to act now.
One argument for passage is that the United States is facing a pilot
shortage, and a change could help in the short term, said Kit Darby of
Atlanta-based Air Inc., which tracks pilot hiring and retirements. The
organization said about 2,200 pilots this year will turn 60 and that total
will rise to about 2,900 a year by 2016 as baby boomers age.
Darby, who flew for United Airlines, was forced to retire on May 22, his
60th birthday.
"It is pretty frustrating," Emens said. "This has been a decade of my life,
and I think we are losing a lot of good people for no good reason."
He's not the only one fighting. Thousands of other pilots are with him,
including Southwest pilot Capt. Bill Martin, who flies regularly through
Houston.
"All we want to do is work," said Martin, who turns 59 next month. "The rest
of the world now works to 65."
The FAA in January proposed to raise the mandatory retirement age for U.S.
commercial pilots from 60 to 65. A committee reporting to the agency said
medical and aging experts agree there is no medical rationale for the rule.
Those flying planes would have to demonstrate they're physically up to the
job, as they do now. All pilots acting as captain must have a medical exam
every six months, while others in the cockpit also have regular physicals.
That would continue if the rule changes.
FAA Administrator Marion Blakey said the formal rule-making process would
have to be followed.
That process is too time-consuming for pilots like Capt. Carl Kuwitzky. He's
head of the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association, which has been fighting
for years to get the rule changed.
U.S. Rep. Michael McCaul, R-Austin, said he expects the legislation he
co-sponsored with a host of others to come up in the House soon and pass.
"For me the real question is: Do you make some arbitrary age limit?" said
McCaul, whose district includes part of Harris County. "You really should be
looking not so much at age, but the ability."
Change of position
The Air Line Pilots Association, which opposed the change for years,
switched its position in May.
ALPA, which represents most big airlines, including Houston-based
Continental, said it did so because it wanted to be able to exert influence
in how the change was made. ALPA is the world's largest airline pilots union
and represents 60,000 pilots who fly for 41 U.S. and Canadian airlines.
There are disagreements among pilots on this issue. The leaders of the union
representing pilots who fly for the world's largest carrier, Fort
Worth-based American Airlines, say they don't want to see the rule changed.
The 12,000-strong Allied Pilots Association at American doesn't see a need
to fiddle with it, according to its spokesman, Capt. Denis Breslin.
"What APA has always hung its hat on is that the rule has worked flawlessly
for so many years," Breslin said. "There has never been a single health- or
death-related accident."
Unsuccessful challenges
The age 60 rule dates to 1959, as jet passenger travel became popular.
At the time when the Boeing 707 was just going into service, the FAA press
release announcing the rule said allowing pilots in this age group to remain
in command of the big fast new planes "would be a hazard to safety in air
carriers operations."
The rulehas been challenged several times but never changed.
This time may be different.
One reason is that last fall, the International Civil Aviation Organization,
a United Nations agency billed as the global forum for civil aviation,
adopted a new standard that allows one pilot in the cockpit up to age 65,
provided the other pilot is under 60.
That means older foreign pilots are flying into the United States, but U.S.
pilots who are the same age are prohibited from operating planes here.
Southwest Airlines pilot Joe Gautille says that is wrong.
"My government is discriminating against me, and I am a 30-year Navy
veteran," said Gautille, who lives near Dallas. "I haven't asked a lot of my
government, but I am asking for my job."
The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission agrees with him. That federal
agency is on record saying the rule discriminates.
Pilot skills and health can be assessed accurately on an individual basis
regardless of age, said Naomi Earp, chair of the EEOC, in a letter to the
FAA.
The commission strongly encourages the FAA to lift the age 60 rule, she
said.
Since the FAA's process could take two years, the Southwest pilot union has
joined others in pursuing legislation, which was filed in the House and
Senate earlier this year.
"We are going to lose several hundred pilots in that time frame," Kuwitzky
said. "Only Congress can make law and pursuing legislation is quicker and
more efficient. It will save more jobs and get protections, so that is what
we are doing."
Rep. Ted Poe, R-Humble, is among the supporters of the change. He said he
has pilots of all ages who live in his district, which includes George Bush
Intercontinental Airport.
"Pilots from other nations can fly until they are 65, so the reason for the
rule at 60 no longer exists," Poe said. "If they are fit, they should be
able to work until they are 65."
Capt. Tom Donaldson, chair of the Continental pilot council, said while
there will always be pilots on both sides of the issue, "Continental pilots
recognize the need for ALPA's position."
"It was clear that the age 60 change was going to happen," Donaldson said.
"In polling conducted by the union, the majority of Continental pilots
supported ALPA's position that the union needs to be part of the process to
help protect pilot interests."
Effects on Continental
The effects of a change are especially pertinent to Continental pilots since
they've entered contract negotiations with management, he said.
Continental deferred comment to the union.
For pilots who will soon reach 60, even if a bill in passed, the language in
it could have a big impact on their future.
ALPA is against making the change retroactive, which would allow those who
recently were forced out as pilots to return to service.
Most seem to agree that would present huge problems, which also is the
feeling of onetime astronaut Robert "Hoot" Gibson, who was forced to retire
from Southwest last year because he turned 60.
"I'll be the first to acknowledge if you make it retroactive, it would throw
in a monkey wrench for the airlines," Gibson said.
SWA is to blame.....ALPA was along for the ride.........
-----------------------------------------------------------
Sunday, July 29, 2007
Many pilots not retiring types
These fliers are pushing Congress to rescind the age 60 retirement rule
By BILL HENSEL JR.
The Houston (TX) Chronicle
Southwest Airlines pilot Paul Emens is fighting to keep his job, along with
the jobs of thousands of his colleagues.
A decade ago, he founded Airline Pilots Against Age Discrimination to try to
change the rule that mandates commercial pilots retire at age 60.
At the time, Emens didn't give much thought to battling both Father Time and
the slow-moving federal bureaucracy. But now, at age 58, he's staring the
age 60 rule right in the face.
"I have one year and 10 months to go, so I try not to count it down," the
longtime pilot said. "I started off on the principle of the thing, and now
it is getting personal."
He and others pushing to end the age 60 rule have more reason for optimism
now, since a change to 65 has been made internationally. But backers of the
bill say doing it through the normal channels at the Federal Aviation
Administration could take two years, so they're pushing Congress to act now.
One argument for passage is that the United States is facing a pilot
shortage, and a change could help in the short term, said Kit Darby of
Atlanta-based Air Inc., which tracks pilot hiring and retirements. The
organization said about 2,200 pilots this year will turn 60 and that total
will rise to about 2,900 a year by 2016 as baby boomers age.
Darby, who flew for United Airlines, was forced to retire on May 22, his
60th birthday.
"It is pretty frustrating," Emens said. "This has been a decade of my life,
and I think we are losing a lot of good people for no good reason."
He's not the only one fighting. Thousands of other pilots are with him,
including Southwest pilot Capt. Bill Martin, who flies regularly through
Houston.
"All we want to do is work," said Martin, who turns 59 next month. "The rest
of the world now works to 65."
The FAA in January proposed to raise the mandatory retirement age for U.S.
commercial pilots from 60 to 65. A committee reporting to the agency said
medical and aging experts agree there is no medical rationale for the rule.
Those flying planes would have to demonstrate they're physically up to the
job, as they do now. All pilots acting as captain must have a medical exam
every six months, while others in the cockpit also have regular physicals.
That would continue if the rule changes.
FAA Administrator Marion Blakey said the formal rule-making process would
have to be followed.
That process is too time-consuming for pilots like Capt. Carl Kuwitzky. He's
head of the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association, which has been fighting
for years to get the rule changed.
U.S. Rep. Michael McCaul, R-Austin, said he expects the legislation he
co-sponsored with a host of others to come up in the House soon and pass.
"For me the real question is: Do you make some arbitrary age limit?" said
McCaul, whose district includes part of Harris County. "You really should be
looking not so much at age, but the ability."
Change of position
The Air Line Pilots Association, which opposed the change for years,
switched its position in May.
ALPA, which represents most big airlines, including Houston-based
Continental, said it did so because it wanted to be able to exert influence
in how the change was made. ALPA is the world's largest airline pilots union
and represents 60,000 pilots who fly for 41 U.S. and Canadian airlines.
There are disagreements among pilots on this issue. The leaders of the union
representing pilots who fly for the world's largest carrier, Fort
Worth-based American Airlines, say they don't want to see the rule changed.
The 12,000-strong Allied Pilots Association at American doesn't see a need
to fiddle with it, according to its spokesman, Capt. Denis Breslin.
"What APA has always hung its hat on is that the rule has worked flawlessly
for so many years," Breslin said. "There has never been a single health- or
death-related accident."
Unsuccessful challenges
The age 60 rule dates to 1959, as jet passenger travel became popular.
At the time when the Boeing 707 was just going into service, the FAA press
release announcing the rule said allowing pilots in this age group to remain
in command of the big fast new planes "would be a hazard to safety in air
carriers operations."
The rulehas been challenged several times but never changed.
This time may be different.
One reason is that last fall, the International Civil Aviation Organization,
a United Nations agency billed as the global forum for civil aviation,
adopted a new standard that allows one pilot in the cockpit up to age 65,
provided the other pilot is under 60.
That means older foreign pilots are flying into the United States, but U.S.
pilots who are the same age are prohibited from operating planes here.
Southwest Airlines pilot Joe Gautille says that is wrong.
"My government is discriminating against me, and I am a 30-year Navy
veteran," said Gautille, who lives near Dallas. "I haven't asked a lot of my
government, but I am asking for my job."
The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission agrees with him. That federal
agency is on record saying the rule discriminates.
Pilot skills and health can be assessed accurately on an individual basis
regardless of age, said Naomi Earp, chair of the EEOC, in a letter to the
FAA.
The commission strongly encourages the FAA to lift the age 60 rule, she
said.
Since the FAA's process could take two years, the Southwest pilot union has
joined others in pursuing legislation, which was filed in the House and
Senate earlier this year.
"We are going to lose several hundred pilots in that time frame," Kuwitzky
said. "Only Congress can make law and pursuing legislation is quicker and
more efficient. It will save more jobs and get protections, so that is what
we are doing."
Rep. Ted Poe, R-Humble, is among the supporters of the change. He said he
has pilots of all ages who live in his district, which includes George Bush
Intercontinental Airport.
"Pilots from other nations can fly until they are 65, so the reason for the
rule at 60 no longer exists," Poe said. "If they are fit, they should be
able to work until they are 65."
Capt. Tom Donaldson, chair of the Continental pilot council, said while
there will always be pilots on both sides of the issue, "Continental pilots
recognize the need for ALPA's position."
"It was clear that the age 60 change was going to happen," Donaldson said.
"In polling conducted by the union, the majority of Continental pilots
supported ALPA's position that the union needs to be part of the process to
help protect pilot interests."
Effects on Continental
The effects of a change are especially pertinent to Continental pilots since
they've entered contract negotiations with management, he said.
Continental deferred comment to the union.
For pilots who will soon reach 60, even if a bill in passed, the language in
it could have a big impact on their future.
ALPA is against making the change retroactive, which would allow those who
recently were forced out as pilots to return to service.
Most seem to agree that would present huge problems, which also is the
feeling of onetime astronaut Robert "Hoot" Gibson, who was forced to retire
from Southwest last year because he turned 60.
"I'll be the first to acknowledge if you make it retroactive, it would throw
in a monkey wrench for the airlines," Gibson said.
Tripower455
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2003
- Posts
- 1,357
BILL LUMBERG
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2005
- Posts
- 2,074
Sure, but laying it on ALPA is misguided. At least the organization didn't DRIVE for it.
I liked what you said about the F/Os looking in the mirror. If they saw it was wrong they should have tried to squelch the seniors at the top of the list.
Good talk Tri, on the level unlike most FI stuff.
Cheers
I liked what you said about the F/Os looking in the mirror. If they saw it was wrong they should have tried to squelch the seniors at the top of the list.
Good talk Tri, on the level unlike most FI stuff.
Cheers
Tripower455
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2003
- Posts
- 1,357
Our organization may have been DRIVING for the change, but it was completely ineffective in actually changing the rule. It took ALPA to do that, and that's the bottom line.
Roomwithaview
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 6, 2005
- Posts
- 494
Tri,
You might as well give it up. This is the way these guys discuss issues on this forum. When it suits their needs ALPA is the 800 pound gorilla that will crush anything in its path and swapa's just a bunch of booger-pickin' good ole boyz that can find their a$$e$ with both hands.
But if it's about accountability for Age 60 then it's like we had a force of 5000 on the hill non-stop (akin to the million man march) until the rule changed and we singlehandedly got-er-done.
You can't have it both ways boys. Which one is it?
You might as well give it up. This is the way these guys discuss issues on this forum. When it suits their needs ALPA is the 800 pound gorilla that will crush anything in its path and swapa's just a bunch of booger-pickin' good ole boyz that can find their a$$e$ with both hands.
But if it's about accountability for Age 60 then it's like we had a force of 5000 on the hill non-stop (akin to the million man march) until the rule changed and we singlehandedly got-er-done.
You can't have it both ways boys. Which one is it?
Tripower455
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2003
- Posts
- 1,357
redflyer65
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2004
- Posts
- 4,456
Most interesting part of the article. Thanks.
Roomwithaview
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 6, 2005
- Posts
- 494
Full of LUV
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2002
- Posts
- 1,021
Oh the leadership at ALPA and all the unions involved wanted to make sure THEY received the maximum gain, so they wanted to make sure if you were one day over 60, don't come back and take my seat. If the union was really in it for ALL pilots they would have lobbied to make the switch from 60 to 65 over a 10 year phase in so no one yeargroup would have had the extreme windfall, but alas those with the power take care of themselves......
RJ Bum
^ Not bumming it any more
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2002
- Posts
- 407
Way ahead of you bro
:beer:
Roomwithaview
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 6, 2005
- Posts
- 494
ATRCAPT
Livin' the...dream?
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2003
- Posts
- 490
This is true yet all the old farts around here refer to him as "Saint Paul". Makes me (and every other pilot he screwed) want to puke. Personally, I wouldn't cross the street to pi$$ on him if he was on fire. Well....maybe if I could pi$$ gasoline...
Scope out RJ's
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 31, 2006
- Posts
- 1,926
I think it's more ironic when some sw fng thinks that they invented the "top industry pay." When you were handing out favors to pay for your type rating, southwest was at or near the bottom of the pay scales in the industry.
SWA/CA
Ring of Honor Member
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2005
- Posts
- 90
redflyer65
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2004
- Posts
- 4,456
Ouch. The truth hurts sometimes.
Scope out RJ's
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 31, 2006
- Posts
- 1,926
Congrats on that.
You also scoped out pay, benefits, retirement, age 60.......
Oh and let's not forget about that whole pft thingy......
pass the pipe you red belly hog!!!!!
redflyer65
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2004
- Posts
- 4,456
Hey, I'm happy just doing domestic as long as we continue to have year over year profits like the last 39.
Just like everyone else over the years, you can doubt SW will do this or that, but I'd say Dallas has a full plan for international departures in the future. The timeframe? I have no idea. I see them looking to get past the AAI acquisition and possibly past the Wright Amendment restrictions first.
Just like everyone else over the years, you can doubt SW will do this or that, but I'd say Dallas has a full plan for international departures in the future. The timeframe? I have no idea. I see them looking to get past the AAI acquisition and possibly past the Wright Amendment restrictions first.
I think a lot of the old guys who didn't care that this was a stunt and a windfall, thought the industry woiuld be better off by now and the change effects wouldn't be this bad. Now that the opposite is true, and we still have a poor economy and are now dealing with mergers, is there any acknowledgement from SWAPA that this age change has created an unintended reality for junior members? As an ALPA member I can tell you this: if anything, the senior types care even less and are even more emboldened to pull the ladder up again. ALPA National looks less and less like a union every month. What's up with SWAPA on the issue?
Did your dad write the book 'Sky Gods' by chance?
Tripower455
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2003
- Posts
- 1,357
No. But it's a pretty close account of a Pan Am career from his perspective. I don't think the author went to Delta, but I could be wrong.
LeeRoyJenkins
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2011
- Posts
- 314
The author went to Delta with the Airbuses.
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
