Southwest evaluates -800's

[mt2]

Yep, never ceases to amaze me how some people get soooo worked up that SWA pilots love (or at least like it a real lot) their job and their Company. Really, isn't there something more important or fun you could do aside from trying, unsuccessfully I might add, to make the SWA crowd feel inferior to those at XYZ airlines ??

Can we move on, please?

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Hey General, you are just too easy buddy. Try this...

Compass.....36
Mesaba.......88
Pinnacle.....140
Comair.......120
ASA...........159

These total 543 without Skywest, Shuttle America and Mesa.

Its easily over 750 airframes (probably pushing 1000 if I had the exact numbers). What a joke. That's almost 300 aircraft more than Southwest even owns...

When I say enjoy your RJ's, you could pick one of a thousand!! Delta ALPA opened the door years ago, and YOUR management drove 1000 semi's right through the middle. You can go on and on about we parked this or that, but you will never recover the numbers you gave away.

How many pilots are not employeed by Delta because of this?

How many cities pairs lost?

How many airframes lost? Get the picture yet?

My last four day trip had two legs each day, so even your 4-5 legs a day rings hollow. Even on the rare occasion I do 4 legs a day, I know we are feeding our own operation....not farming it out like you do. Plus I get 105/hr after two years to do it. Enjoy all those RJ's buddy. I'll take the money to the bank and keep flying Southwest passengers....

well for... Southwest!

All this from a guy who's airline only flies to 62 cities.......

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Yep, never ceases to amaze me how some people get soooo worked up that SWA pilots love (or at least like it a real lot) their job and their Company. Really, isn't there something more important or fun you could do aside from trying, unsuccessfully I might add, to make the SWA crowd feel inferior to those at XYZ airlines ??

Can we move on, please?

You see, this is the problem.....

It's not a make-them-feel-inferior thing. They are the reason all of us are suffering becuse they whored themselves out of the Texas triangle by accepting trips for pay and no retirement, 6 legs a day, etc etc. There was a period not too long ago where SWA was a Pilot's last choice.....ala VA....and now they are paid, sure, because all managment had to do was point at their undercutting wages and contracts and say we were overpaid now. The reasons RJ's are around was becuase SWA paid and played like a regional in 1992 and management steered the senior guys into protecting their pay without first seeing the big picture.......

I don't feel any animosity to the SWA guy except when they jump on here and point the finger at us and try to compare an apple to an orange.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Hey Bill,

Southwest has a ZERO domestic codeshare clause, how about Delta?

Most international is off the table too. Kinda hard for SWA management to replace the ops.

RF

Something to be proud of......
Keep the domestic runaround...... You guys make as many hours as I do on a 3 day trip and you bust your nuts while I fly two legs and get fed twice and also get to take a nap......

We are two different airlines and once again, how many cities does your no-codeshare airline (and damn proud of it) fly to?? Trying to compare the two is stupid.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

>>>And, the majority of your trips have mutiple leg days. You can't say otherwise. It's great you have a trip now and then that have fewer legs, but that isn't how your trips work. Your trips are supposed to be high productivity trips. Normally legacy pilots fly from BOS to LAX, or JFK to SLC and they are done. Not you guys, you fly BWI to SLC, and then onto LAS, and SJC. That stinks. Your trips try to get the max out of every day, .....<<<<

The SWA guys generally block the same hours of flying in 12 days of flying that the legacies get in 15 days of flying. If paid the same per block hour, I'd rather do the SWA thing (but of course the SWA guys are getting paid more these days).

Yeah.....super.....I get to make more than you with 20 minute turns sprinting for a burger and sweating like a sow in heat 6 times a day.....

that's REAL progress.

 

[waveflyer]

Really? How do you figure that? SWA has had higher pay rates for flying 737's than Legacy widebody guys have had since 2002-2003. SWA rates haven't helped legacy pilots for the past 7 years, what is going to change now? Management comes crying they can't earn any more money. They threaten furloughs and bankruptcy, then the pilots cave and either take concessions or accept the status quo. I thought everyone knew this by now. This is America, that's what pilots do in America. It's Stockholm's Syndrome, you get beaten and abused so badly by someone and then you start to grow fond and end up protecting your abuser. How else to explain the management labor relationship in this putrid industry?

Thx-
pipe gets it. You took paycuts bc the majority of your membership has failed to recognize how political our contracts are- and have supported politicians who do NOT support or value us.

You can't have it both ways-
w/ southwest either- can't malign wn for their crappy pay as a startup and NOT praise us now for holding the bar up for a better part of a decade (as the GOP stole from us...)

so many of you need to move to Cuba - funny how I've yet to meet one wn employee who cares about VA- the attitude is knock yourself out- you want to compete- go ahead and try

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Oh this is rich...............

Thx-
pipe gets it. You took paycuts bc the majority of your membership has failed to recognize how political our contracts are- and have supported politicians who do NOT support or value us.

Maybe because many of us don't look at our jobs as the #1 priority. Of course if you spent less time at the gym working on those abs for that man in your life and, for the love of God, stop watching MSNBC, you'd understand that!

You can't have it both ways-
w/ southwest either- can't malign wn for their crappy pay as a startup and NOT praise us now for holding the bar up for a better part of a decade (as the GOP stole from us...)

We also blame you for supporting pay for training, and age 65, but I guess that went right past you.
I'm also guessing you forgot who was in charge of Congress for the last couple of years during the last GOP president's term. And by the looks of things now, the Dems are doing an incredible job of making Obama look like an opening act for Milli Vanilli!

so many of you need to move to Cuba - funny how I've yet to meet one wn employee who cares about VA- the attitude is knock yourself out- you want to compete- go ahead and try

Coming from someone who doesn't understand the constitution, and supports a socialist government, I suggest you move to North Korea. At least with Cuba you get the sunshine and palmtrees.

 

[johnsonrod]

Something to be proud of......
Keep the domestic runaround...... You guys make as many hours as I do on a 3 day trip and you bust your nuts while I fly two legs and get fed twice and also get to take a nap......

We are two different airlines and once again, how many cities does your no-codeshare airline (and damn proud of it) fly to?? Trying to compare the two is stupid.

Forget the General, Bill Lumberg is now my NEW BEST FRIEND!

 

[mt2]

You see, this is the problem.....

It's not a make-them-feel-inferior thing. They are the reason all of us are suffering becuse they whored themselves out of the Texas triangle by accepting trips for pay and no retirement, 6 legs a day, etc etc. There was a period not too long ago where SWA was a Pilot's last choice.....ala VA....and now they are paid, sure, because all managment had to do was point at their undercutting wages and contracts and say we were overpaid now. The reasons RJ's are around was becuase SWA paid and played like a regional in 1992 and management steered the senior guys into protecting their pay without first seeing the big picture.......

I don't feel any animosity to the SWA guy except when they jump on here and point the finger at us and try to compare an apple to an orange.

C'mon Bill, really? Seems overly simplistic to me. Have you forgotten People Express, Frank Lorenzo, Chapter 11, etc and their effects on industry pay/benefits ?? Maybe it's just me thinking they had some impact on our profession. And blaming RJ's on SWA too -- nice, pure genius!! Here I was thinking Comair/Delta Connection was doing it, with DALPA approval, to upgrade their "regional" service from their Saab fleet as a way to help keep high yield business travelers.

In truth as a neutral guy I have to say both airlines would offer great career prospects. Each has its pros and cons but overall would be a great place to call home. But, as an outside FI observer it seems the SWA guys tend to be more in a defensive mode as opposed to the few OAL guys pointing fingers ...

 

[StopNTSing]

But, as an outside FI observer it seems the SWA guys tend to be more in a defensive mode as opposed to the few OAL guys pointing fingers ...

Interesting observation. Though I would venture a guess that far more SWA threads have been hijacked by Delta dudes (like this one), than the other way around.

 

[walkthasky]

I love it! You guys think we work sooo hard! 6 legs this, 6 legs that. 4 years, and have done that once. Oh and if we work hard we get paid more. This is hilarious to watch all the energy wasted on the same ol sh!t...

P.S. I dont give a sh!t how many cities i fly to, or where those cities are. By the way its 68, not 62 cities, but whos counting

 

[MILPILOT17]

I love it! You guys think we work sooo hard! 6 legs this, 6 legs that. 4 years, and have done that once. Oh and if we work hard we get paid more. This is hilarious to watch all the energy wasted on the same ol sh!t...

P.S. I dont give a sh!t how many cities i fly to, or where those cities are. By the way its 68, not 62 cities, but whos counting

It's 69 cities; yes, it really is!

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

C'mon Bill, really? Seems overly simplistic to me. Have you forgotten People Express, Frank Lorenzo, Chapter 11, etc and their effects on industry pay/benefits ?? Maybe it's just me thinking they had some impact on our profession. And blaming RJ's on SWA too -- nice, pure genius!! Here I was thinking Comair/Delta Connection was doing it, with DALPA approval, to upgrade their "regional" service from their Saab fleet as a way to help keep high yield business travelers.

In truth as a neutral guy I have to say both airlines would offer great career prospects. Each has its pros and cons but overall would be a great place to call home. But, as an outside FI observer it seems the SWA guys tend to be more in a defensive mode as opposed to the few OAL guys pointing fingers ...

MT,

True comments. You are right, there were other factors. If you read between the lines of my statement, WE major pilots have no one to blame for releasing the scope.....the downward PRESSURE on wages and benefits, productivity, wages and Luv came from many of the factors you listed but SWA can't be left out of the usual suspects lineup.......Southwest had a hand in it......In fact, read the DAL bankruptcy transcripts and the executives made a point of bringing them up and their productivity.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Forget the General, Bill Lumberg is now my NEW BEST FRIEND!

Backatya.....

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I love it! You guys think we work sooo hard! 6 legs this, 6 legs that. 4 years, and have done that once. Oh and if we work hard we get paid more. This is hilarious to watch all the energy wasted on the same ol sh!t...

P.S. I dont give a sh!t how many cities i fly to, or where those cities are. By the way its 68, not 62 cities, but whos counting

Hence my point......

Apples to oranges my friend.....500+ destinations and you guys just cherrypick....

Seriously, you think you could expend some of the hard earned capital and make your profit machine cough up for some training? There, oh snap....now I've done it....

cue Scope in 3....2.....1.....(Mark)

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Interesting observation. Though I would venture a guess that far more SWA threads have been hijacked by Delta dudes (like this one), than the other way around.

Sorry about the thread hijack.....

No kidding....

 

[waveflyer]

Scope only likes to stalk me.
Mustve seen me at a hotel gym and is hoping I'm a little bit gay. Sorry geek- not gonna happen.
And yes- wn threads are always hijacked by the haters. I don't care if you do or don't like your job- why do you care so much about mine?

As for 69 cities- what? Delta doesn't go to all those destinations to make a profit? You make it sound like delta was approached by Reagan and asked to add those cities for the good of the nation.
And as for apples to oranges- I agree- right up to the point an 86 seat rj flew from SLC-ATL- hub to hub- which you guys allowed AFTER you were out of bankruptcy. Care to know how many times I've seen rj's fly SLC-LAX? Or ATL-ORD?
Yeah... I'm gonna have to disagree that those markets OR those planes are too small for mainlone sellouts.
Fix your own screwed up house before criticizing anyone else. DALPA has been a huge part of the problem. And ALWAYS remember- every time you get "fed" over the atlantic or pat yourself on the back over how good your life is doing those 2 leg 3 days- you're enjoying that off the backs of commuter pilots you sold out who ought to be on your seniority list.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Scope only likes to stalk me.
Mustve seen me at a hotel gym and is hoping I'm a little bit gay.

Unless you're talking the hotel in Athens, or Istanbul, then no, I haven't seen you. And no I don't hope you're gay, I know you're gay. You stated it!

Sorry geek- not gonna happen.

Thank God for that....Make sure and tell your man that, I'm sure he's worried.

And yes- wn threads are always hijacked by the haters. I don't care if you do or don't like your job- why do you care so much about mine?

I really could care less about you or your pay for training job. It is when you pass the buck on the ills of the industry and forget to look in the mirror. (or is cause you're flexing those abs for that man?)

As for 69 cities- what? Delta doesn't go to all those destinations to make a profit? You make it sound like delta was approached by Reagan and asked to add those cities for the good of the nation.
And as for apples to oranges- I agree- right up to the point an 86 seat rj flew from SLC-ATL- hub to hub- which you guys allowed AFTER you were out of bankruptcy. Care to know how many times I've seen rj's fly SLC-LAX? Or ATL-ORD?

My bet says you can't count that high, unless you're talking pay for training......

Yeah... I'm gonna have to disagree that those markets OR those planes are too small for mainlone sellouts.

Or we could just think how less we'd have to work if it wasn't for the swapa sellouts on age 65, their crappy work rules, and the origional inventors of pay for training.

Fix your own screwed up house before criticizing anyone else. DALPA has been a huge part of the problem. And ALWAYS remember- every time you get "fed" over the atlantic or pat yourself on the back over how good your life is doing those 2 leg 3 days- you're enjoying that off the backs of commuter pilots you sold out who ought to be on your seniority list.

I find it a riot that you continue to suck the sack of swapa that sold you out on your "quick upgrade," after spending all that money to buy your job, on age 65......
Then, you have the stones to point the finger elsewhere that someone is a sellout. Clean up your own house before pointing fingers Fidel.....That is of course if you can keep them off that "special man" in your life.
BTW wave, how's that stagnation treating you?:laugh:
At least you'll be growing by trading in some of those older 73-300's for some "heavy" 737-800's.....

 

[B727Driver]

Scope, what is it with your creepy fixation with SWA, SWAPA, calling others gay and bringing their mothers into your rant?
Clean up your own mess with RJ's and scope'em out. Any progress on this issue?
Last look still has RJ's doing a lot of mainline flying.
One thing is to have it as your screen name, the other is to get off your butt and do something about it. Instead of people seeing you as a colossal a--hole, I personally would like to read about how you lead your pilot group as the first one to separate mainline flying from a regional. That would speak volumes. Otherwise, all we have is a collection of 1600+ posts of nothing but senseless BS.
BTW, when you call waveflyer a 'sellout', explain RJ's? How did they get mainline flying at your airline? Senior pilots selling out the junior pilots? I've got mine, the heck with you?

Waiting for your non-articulate, immature response in....3...2.....1...

 

[MILPILOT17]

Unless you're talking the hotel in Athens, or Istanbul, then no, I haven't seen you. And no I don't hope you're gay, I know you're gay. You stated it!





Thank God for that....Make sure and tell your man that, I'm sure he's worried.


I really could care less about you or your pay for training job. It is when you pass the buck on the ills of the industry and forget to look in the mirror. (or is cause you're flexing those abs for that man?)


My bet says you can't count that high, unless you're talking pay for training......


Or we could just think how less we'd have to work if it wasn't for the swapa sellouts on age 65, their crappy work rules, and the origional inventors of pay for training.


I find it a riot that you continue to suck the sack of swapa that sold you out on your "quick upgrade," after spending all that money to buy your job, on age 65......
Then, you have the stones to point the finger elsewhere that someone is a sellout. Clean up your own house before pointing fingers Fidel.....That is of course if you can keep them off that "special man" in your life.
BTW wave, how's that stagnation treating you?:laugh:
At least you'll be growing by trading in some of those older 73-300's for some "heavy" 737-800's.....

Scope, When you finally sit down on the side of the bed with a handgun pointed at your head, please for the love of God, make sure it's loaded!

 

[waveflyer]

The stagnation's alright- bc I have a job where it doesn't suck to be an FO.
But I certainly don't gloat about it and am grateful every day for landing on my feet in this industry- a couple different choices and life might be a lot different for me- so feel bad for a flight instructor trying to break into a turbine flying job if you're into pity- but don't feel bad for me-
I don't suck swapa's teet- I was fairly neutral on age 65 bc I knew it was trending that way- what I disagree w/ wholeheartedly was the split second implementation that causes furloughs at every company that doesn't give a dam about their employees. I also think that every contract should have compensation for FO's and we did get some of that in our latest contract- enough?
We're in a pretty bad economy - I don't worry too much about enough.
Where did you get this idea that I haven't worked w/ my union as much as I can to address issues? Or this idea that I think we're perfect? I don't- what I say is that I love coming to work- and that's due in large part to our mgmt making this culture a priority. I appreciate that and am grateful for that.

Scope is a huge issue for me- did DALPA sell out 90 seat crj's out of bankruptcy in 2006 or did they not?

So while the general laments us for our occasional 5 leg days- I like to point out how many pilots you have flying delta pax's under delta colors - who you won't let on your list who routinely fly 7-8 leg days. You can pretend that's a different airline if you want- but it's burying your head in the sand-

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

The stagnation's alright- bc I have a job where it doesn't suck to be an FO.

Scope is a huge issue for me- did DALPA sell out 90 seat crj's out of bankruptcy in 2006 or did they not?

-

Wave.....tell the truth.....76 seats.....be nice!

Also it doesn't suck to be an FO compared to your old commuter job?? You sound like a JB guy who thinks he hit the jackpot....enjoy that right seat.....I hope it's comfy.

 

[waveflyer]

All crj 900's capable of 90 seats- mostly configured to 76 but a few to 84.

If they configured 757's to 76 seats would that be alright w/ you too?

Well bill since you asked - it's my 3rd major-
so I can compare legacy to wn w/ more legitimacy than most- but it begs the question- just when am I allowed to be "happy" in your estimation?
Only when I get to your seat doing the type of flying you do?

 

[GuppyWN]

How many domestic citites does Mother Delta serve?

I have no idea. I'm just curious.

Check back when Southwest is 80. Then we'll be able to really compare.

For now I hope that "all ya'll" think we're nothing more than a nickel and dime airline and are absolutely no threat to your customer base.

Gup

ps. I will add that Southwest is the only airline I know of, anywhere, that has a ZERO DOMESTIC CODESHARE clause in their pilot contract.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[B727Driver]

Gup, guess y'all did what they could not.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Scope, what is it with your creepy fixation with SWA, SWAPA, calling others gay and bringing their mothers into your rant?

The only one I call gay is waveflyer. He's the one who admitted it on this very forum, not me. I have zero fixation with swa,swapa. Your swapa boys point the might finger at alpa, and i have no problem with that. My problem is when they say alpa is responsible for all the problems in this industry, and calling alpa pilots sellouts.......Yet they see no problems with APA? Don't they have rj's as well? Are they sellouts too?

Clean up your own mess with RJ's and scope'em out. Any progress on this issue?

When we start section 6, I'll let you know.

Last look still has RJ's doing a lot of mainline flying.
One thing is to have it as your screen name, the other is to get off your butt and do something about it. Instead of people seeing you as a colossal a--hole, I personally would like to read about how you lead your pilot group as the first one to separate mainline flying from a regional.

I believe you'll see lots more regional reduction in the future. The 50 seater basically is obsolete (except for very few markets). More and more of them are being parked......

That would speak volumes. Otherwise, all we have is a collection of 1600+ posts of nothing but senseless BS.

Now what else would this useless sight be for then?

BTW, when you call waveflyer a 'sellout', explain RJ's? How did they get mainline flying at your airline? Senior pilots selling out the junior pilots? I've got mine, the heck with you?

Exactly! No different than southwest. Just look at yourselves. You guys invented pay for training, and were the catalyst for age 65. Your junior guys are not going to have any forward movement, and the growth you'll see is in larger 737's. Your senior guys would sell out your junior guys in a second to keep up their rediculous schedules, especially when when your fall cutbacks take place........And we're the sellouts????

Waiting for your non-articulate, immature response in....3...2.....1...

See below reply to milpilot17

Scope, When you finally sit down on the side of the bed with a handgun pointed at your head, please for the love of God, make sure it's loaded!

Milpilot:
Usually when I sit down on the side of the bed, I'm with your old lady, and with how many people are in and out of that trailer, I wouldn't point anything anywhere!:laugh:

 

[FLYLOW22]

ps. I will add that southwest is the only airline i know of, anywhere, that has a zero domestic codeshare clause in their pilot contract.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

bing!!!!!!

 

[B727Driver]

Hey Scope, SWAPA member...no. Sorry to disappoint you. Zero fixation on your part....oh, sure. 1600+ rants tell otherwise.

Sellouts, in a way, yes. Any legacy that contracts RJ's to do mainline flying and that is approved by the union are selling out the bottom and future members of their seniority list. The sad thing is that no one looks backwards or entertains future ramifications when contracts are due. The "what's in it for me" and "I've got mine" runs rampant. Gup is right, zero domestic codeshare in their contract. Do you have that in yours? I suspect that may have been an issue with the rejection of their first TA. Can't wait to see how you spearhead your Sec. 6. I commend you for stepping up. For now, there are still RJ's on the property and mainline flying your DALPA brothers are not doing. I believe you and APA had mainline, dues paying pilots furloughed while outsourced flying was in place (see Comair, ASA, Eagle...). Unity??? Also, please enlighten us on what SWAPA is thinking. You seem to know so much of what is going on over there. The end of the 50 seater is a good start, the larger RJ's are still a problem. Only sky high fuel costs will kill the high seat-mile cost of the RJ. Probably why SWA doesn't use them. Beware of the EMB's. They're more competitive, don't forget those when you go to Sec.6.

 

[maxblast72]

For now I hope that "all ya'll" think we're nothing more than a nickel and dime airline and are absolutely no threat to your customer base.

Leo Mullin thought Airtran was no threat to the big D back in the late 1990s when Airtran had 30 old DC-9s. Fast forward 10 years and Airtran had 140 brand new Boeings with an average fleet age of less than 5 years and was flying 4 times as many ASMs as they had 10 years earlier. Richard Anderson probably won't make the same mistakes of underestimating competition like Mullin did.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Gup, guess y'all did what they could not.

What's that?