Southwest evaluates -800's

[redflyer65]

Nice attempt at spin on the RJ's, unfortunately it doesn't work.

It's a ton of domestic feed that's gone...forever. You will never put MD-90's or 737's on the routes that are history.

 

[The Prussian]

G.L....Go Dude, go!...15,000 posts says you can't respond quick enough to all the guys that disagree with you. Great try,...and enjoy Lagos (for now anyway)...

 

[Mach 80]

>>>And, the majority of your trips have mutiple leg days. You can't say otherwise. It's great you have a trip now and then that have fewer legs, but that isn't how your trips work. Your trips are supposed to be high productivity trips. Normally legacy pilots fly from BOS to LAX, or JFK to SLC and they are done. Not you guys, you fly BWI to SLC, and then onto LAS, and SJC. That stinks. Your trips try to get the max out of every day, .....<<<<

The SWA guys generally block the same hours of flying in 12 days of flying that the legacies get in 15 days of flying. If paid the same per block hour, I'd rather do the SWA thing (but of course the SWA guys are getting paid more these days).

 

[General Lee]

>>>And, the majority of your trips have mutiple leg days. You can't say otherwise. It's great you have a trip now and then that have fewer legs, but that isn't how your trips work. Your trips are supposed to be high productivity trips. Normally legacy pilots fly from BOS to LAX, or JFK to SLC and they are done. Not you guys, you fly BWI to SLC, and then onto LAS, and SJC. That stinks. Your trips try to get the max out of every day, .....<<<<

The SWA guys generally block the same hours of flying in 12 days of flying that the legacies get in 15 days of flying. If paid the same per block hour, I'd rather do the SWA thing (but of course the SWA guys are getting paid more these days).

And they get to go to ELP more too. Sure, you will only look inside the plane, and never look out, only doing autolands. Yeah, that's the ticket. All layovers are the SAME for you, and so are airplanes. Variety in life means nothing to you. No matter that the rest of your career will comprise of domestic flying that is the same month after month, year after year, on the same plane, forever. Sure, they are paid more now, but that very likely will change, and they will be stuck with LBB and HRL forever. And how do you know how many days of flying occurs at DL vs SWA? Do you know how many different combinations of trips can be had at a legacy? Whatever dude.......

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[beechlive]

...,,

 

[pipejockey]

Hey if they negotiate BETTER pay rates for the 737-800, that only helps us here at CAL.

Really? How do you figure that? SWA has had higher pay rates for flying 737's than Legacy widebody guys have had since 2002-2003. SWA rates haven't helped legacy pilots for the past 7 years, what is going to change now? Management comes crying they can't earn any more money. They threaten furloughs and bankruptcy, then the pilots cave and either take concessions or accept the status quo. I thought everyone knew this by now. This is America, that's what pilots do in America. It's Stockholm's Syndrome, you get beaten and abused so badly by someone and then you start to grow fond and end up protecting your abuser. How else to explain the management labor relationship in this putrid industry?

 

[scoreboardII]

Genreal, we get it, you hate your homelife and love being out on the road to so called "fancy places" looking at the world through CNN on the backside of the clock and hiding behind your curtain on the 9th floor.

Enjoy.

Some of us have lives outside of the job. Get over it.

 

[GuppyWN]

If the worst thing I do in my month is fly to LBB or El Paso (which I have not done in prolly 2 years), then I must be living right.

General constantly bitching about it only highlights it.

Gup

 

[satpak77]

What happens when that isn't the case anymore? The legacies ARE getting more healthy, and contract time is coming up at UAL/CAL (for the merger), and DL (2012 ammendable, but talks starting 18 months prior). If rates match SWA for the 737 or equivalent, and higher for widebodies, then what would you say? If pay was about the same, SWA would lose for lack of variety in planes, routes, layovers, etc. Some people don't care about where they go, until they try INTL flying and see that it is like a mini-vacation. It's great, and the SWA guys like to say it's no big deal because "they used to fly to INTL places in the C141....." It's just not the same, and they know it. So, add the same pay or better and more variety, SWA will be seen as a well paid REGIONAL, flying lots of legs to some nowhere towns in West Texas.


Stability? I would say the airlines paying down debt and having the most cash on hand are pretty good for now. (DL is doing both) And with possible mergers out there for every airline, stabiltiy may be hard to come by. CEOs will be making decisions that could affect everyone.

And you think new 737s satisfy "variety?" They already fly 737NGs. How does that satisfy variety? They are stuck on one plane type, forever. They will fly it to ELP and LBB over 600 times in their careers, and that might be in the first 10 years. 4 or 5 legs a day in that plane, trip after trip, would get mighty boring. But hey, they are currently well paid, and they seem to have fun, which is not bad I guess. But add pay at the other airlines, and I see SWA guys leaving SWA in droves. They did before 9-11---SWA Captains were leaving for newhire UAL classes.


Bye Bye---General Lee

General, this is becoming a post-Kit Darby career fair discussion at the local bar. With that said

Paying down debt- I am glad DAL and the others are doing it. SWA never had much debt to speak of to begin with, compared to the big legacy majors.

Widebodies, "Variety", etc - most people who decided to go SWA recognize/accept that the 737 is probably the only plane they will ever fly. That is accepted for the big and secure paycheck (as stated, and I agree, for now...). The discussion about "variety" and "it must be boring" etc etc ad nauseum is akin to a computer programmer going to work for Apple and later we theorize that he will b1tch that he never gets to work on Windows operating systems and is "getting bored" at Apple.

Fun, Morale level - It could be argued that the work environment at SWA is happier that at others.

ELP - this is a 5-star diamond city and my sources tell me everybody in the airline industry wants to RON there.

Leaving in Droves - Don't know, but "post 9-11" everybody I know that has an ATP in there pocket has had an "attitude adjustment" regarding career expectations and the overall industry. If you are at a major or even (supposedly) stable corporate department, flying jet equipment, ain't nobody "jumping around" to different carriers.

My .02 cents. I might say I personally respect DAL and agree, it is a good place to be. However General, you and I both know that the applicant at Local Tool Company ABC, who flies a broke-d1ck Citation 500, and is ex-now-closed-doors-Part 121 regional airline, with 3000 HRS PIC turbine, and a new baby on the way, is a moron to not accept a SWA offer of employment. For him to "wait" for DAL to resume interviewing is asinine.

5 years later, this guy is closer to the left seat, and DAL has resumed hiring. To see him out and public, and tell him "you only fly to ELP, you suck" is silly.

You and I both know that......

 

[FlyinGuy]

GL does not get the fact that many of us have exciting lives outside of our careers. When I go to work, I want to work for the max pay. Therefore, I get more days to do what I really want to do. Stay away form airports, airplanes, and spend time at home.


Who cares about seeing some exotic location around the world with a flight crew. If I am going to go there, I am going to go with my wife!!!!

 

[mt2]

Yep, never ceases to amaze me how some people get soooo worked up that SWA pilots love (or at least like it a real lot) their job and their Company. Really, isn't there something more important or fun you could do aside from trying, unsuccessfully I might add, to make the SWA crowd feel inferior to those at XYZ airlines ??

Can we move on, please?

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Hey General, you are just too easy buddy. Try this...

Compass.....36
Mesaba.......88
Pinnacle.....140
Comair.......120
ASA...........159

These total 543 without Skywest, Shuttle America and Mesa.

Its easily over 750 airframes (probably pushing 1000 if I had the exact numbers). What a joke. That's almost 300 aircraft more than Southwest even owns...

When I say enjoy your RJ's, you could pick one of a thousand!! Delta ALPA opened the door years ago, and YOUR management drove 1000 semi's right through the middle. You can go on and on about we parked this or that, but you will never recover the numbers you gave away.

How many pilots are not employeed by Delta because of this?

How many cities pairs lost?

How many airframes lost? Get the picture yet?

My last four day trip had two legs each day, so even your 4-5 legs a day rings hollow. Even on the rare occasion I do 4 legs a day, I know we are feeding our own operation....not farming it out like you do. Plus I get 105/hr after two years to do it. Enjoy all those RJ's buddy. I'll take the money to the bank and keep flying Southwest passengers....

well for... Southwest!

All this from a guy who's airline only flies to 62 cities.......

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Yep, never ceases to amaze me how some people get soooo worked up that SWA pilots love (or at least like it a real lot) their job and their Company. Really, isn't there something more important or fun you could do aside from trying, unsuccessfully I might add, to make the SWA crowd feel inferior to those at XYZ airlines ??

Can we move on, please?

You see, this is the problem.....

It's not a make-them-feel-inferior thing. They are the reason all of us are suffering becuse they whored themselves out of the Texas triangle by accepting trips for pay and no retirement, 6 legs a day, etc etc. There was a period not too long ago where SWA was a Pilot's last choice.....ala VA....and now they are paid, sure, because all managment had to do was point at their undercutting wages and contracts and say we were overpaid now. The reasons RJ's are around was becuase SWA paid and played like a regional in 1992 and management steered the senior guys into protecting their pay without first seeing the big picture.......

I don't feel any animosity to the SWA guy except when they jump on here and point the finger at us and try to compare an apple to an orange.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Hey Bill,

Southwest has a ZERO domestic codeshare clause, how about Delta?

Most international is off the table too. Kinda hard for SWA management to replace the ops.

RF

Something to be proud of......
Keep the domestic runaround...... You guys make as many hours as I do on a 3 day trip and you bust your nuts while I fly two legs and get fed twice and also get to take a nap......

We are two different airlines and once again, how many cities does your no-codeshare airline (and damn proud of it) fly to?? Trying to compare the two is stupid.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

>>>And, the majority of your trips have mutiple leg days. You can't say otherwise. It's great you have a trip now and then that have fewer legs, but that isn't how your trips work. Your trips are supposed to be high productivity trips. Normally legacy pilots fly from BOS to LAX, or JFK to SLC and they are done. Not you guys, you fly BWI to SLC, and then onto LAS, and SJC. That stinks. Your trips try to get the max out of every day, .....<<<<

The SWA guys generally block the same hours of flying in 12 days of flying that the legacies get in 15 days of flying. If paid the same per block hour, I'd rather do the SWA thing (but of course the SWA guys are getting paid more these days).

Yeah.....super.....I get to make more than you with 20 minute turns sprinting for a burger and sweating like a sow in heat 6 times a day.....

that's REAL progress.

 

[waveflyer]

Really? How do you figure that? SWA has had higher pay rates for flying 737's than Legacy widebody guys have had since 2002-2003. SWA rates haven't helped legacy pilots for the past 7 years, what is going to change now? Management comes crying they can't earn any more money. They threaten furloughs and bankruptcy, then the pilots cave and either take concessions or accept the status quo. I thought everyone knew this by now. This is America, that's what pilots do in America. It's Stockholm's Syndrome, you get beaten and abused so badly by someone and then you start to grow fond and end up protecting your abuser. How else to explain the management labor relationship in this putrid industry?

Thx-
pipe gets it. You took paycuts bc the majority of your membership has failed to recognize how political our contracts are- and have supported politicians who do NOT support or value us.

You can't have it both ways-
w/ southwest either- can't malign wn for their crappy pay as a startup and NOT praise us now for holding the bar up for a better part of a decade (as the GOP stole from us...)

so many of you need to move to Cuba - funny how I've yet to meet one wn employee who cares about VA- the attitude is knock yourself out- you want to compete- go ahead and try

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Oh this is rich...............

Thx-
pipe gets it. You took paycuts bc the majority of your membership has failed to recognize how political our contracts are- and have supported politicians who do NOT support or value us.

Maybe because many of us don't look at our jobs as the #1 priority. Of course if you spent less time at the gym working on those abs for that man in your life and, for the love of God, stop watching MSNBC, you'd understand that!

You can't have it both ways-
w/ southwest either- can't malign wn for their crappy pay as a startup and NOT praise us now for holding the bar up for a better part of a decade (as the GOP stole from us...)

We also blame you for supporting pay for training, and age 65, but I guess that went right past you.
I'm also guessing you forgot who was in charge of Congress for the last couple of years during the last GOP president's term. And by the looks of things now, the Dems are doing an incredible job of making Obama look like an opening act for Milli Vanilli!

so many of you need to move to Cuba - funny how I've yet to meet one wn employee who cares about VA- the attitude is knock yourself out- you want to compete- go ahead and try

Coming from someone who doesn't understand the constitution, and supports a socialist government, I suggest you move to North Korea. At least with Cuba you get the sunshine and palmtrees.

 

[johnsonrod]

Something to be proud of......
Keep the domestic runaround...... You guys make as many hours as I do on a 3 day trip and you bust your nuts while I fly two legs and get fed twice and also get to take a nap......

We are two different airlines and once again, how many cities does your no-codeshare airline (and damn proud of it) fly to?? Trying to compare the two is stupid.

Forget the General, Bill Lumberg is now my NEW BEST FRIEND!

 

[mt2]

You see, this is the problem.....

It's not a make-them-feel-inferior thing. They are the reason all of us are suffering becuse they whored themselves out of the Texas triangle by accepting trips for pay and no retirement, 6 legs a day, etc etc. There was a period not too long ago where SWA was a Pilot's last choice.....ala VA....and now they are paid, sure, because all managment had to do was point at their undercutting wages and contracts and say we were overpaid now. The reasons RJ's are around was becuase SWA paid and played like a regional in 1992 and management steered the senior guys into protecting their pay without first seeing the big picture.......

I don't feel any animosity to the SWA guy except when they jump on here and point the finger at us and try to compare an apple to an orange.

C'mon Bill, really? Seems overly simplistic to me. Have you forgotten People Express, Frank Lorenzo, Chapter 11, etc and their effects on industry pay/benefits ?? Maybe it's just me thinking they had some impact on our profession. And blaming RJ's on SWA too -- nice, pure genius!! Here I was thinking Comair/Delta Connection was doing it, with DALPA approval, to upgrade their "regional" service from their Saab fleet as a way to help keep high yield business travelers.

In truth as a neutral guy I have to say both airlines would offer great career prospects. Each has its pros and cons but overall would be a great place to call home. But, as an outside FI observer it seems the SWA guys tend to be more in a defensive mode as opposed to the few OAL guys pointing fingers ...

 

[StopNTSing]

But, as an outside FI observer it seems the SWA guys tend to be more in a defensive mode as opposed to the few OAL guys pointing fingers ...

Interesting observation. Though I would venture a guess that far more SWA threads have been hijacked by Delta dudes (like this one), than the other way around.