Southwest changing it's "stance" in ATL. HMMMMMM

[fr8doggie]

Yes, I won't deny that but you are again missing the point. At FedEx there is a $36 an hour premium flying the larger equipment. That alone coupled with trip density skews the results. As I said before, it's all about the money! That is why I used the UPS example. When all equipment is paid at the same rate, many will opt out of long haul international flying. I'm not trying to say long haul international sucks, I'm simply saying that when you remove the higher pay from the equation many will opt for front side of the clock domestic flying. If SWA had lengthy multi-day pairings that paid more and offered me more time at home, I would swallow my aversion to week long pairings and flock to where the money is.

Actually, you are not getting my point. At FDX the 777/MD11/A300 all pay the same rate ($261/hr max). So how come I can hold ATL-MEM (incredibly easy flying) but not MEM-CDG-...? Int'l goes extremely senior at FDX. Because people like the flying, the destinations, the layovers, etc. I'd much rather layover for 60hr in SYD than 60hr in SYR. We have both.

Can't speak for the pax world but we love our int'l long haul here at FDX.

I'd like to hear from any UPS guys what the really senior flying is over there.

Regards,
Fr8-

 

[fam62c]

Fine. Maybe now he can bid off to the 717, now that it's the new least desireable position. Months ago when I talked to him, he couldn't. The point it, that a lot of your 767 International FOs are there because of their juniority. Do a lot really, really like International ops and wouldn't leave when they get the opportunity? Sure, probably some. You are a self-professed prime example of this. You like it. Good for you.

My point was that there's people who like international, but there's also a lot who do not, including at your airline. A lot of times it works out that they get what they want. Just like over here: there's people who love AMs and people who love PMs; there's people who love long-hauls, and believe it or not, pilots who love the Texas two-step. However, when there's even a little disparity, it's the junior guys who have to do the flying that isn't their choice. And it turns out that there's not enough pilots who love International, so some junior guys are forced to do it to make up the numbers.

I'm happy that you like your international flying. I really am. Why aren't you happy in return that a lot of guys prefer domestic flying? Both groups get to do what they want, and fly the trips they think are better. You're not going to convince them, and they're not going to convince you. Think about it, General: they're actually doing you a favor. The fact that junior guys get forced to do international flying enhances your seniority. I mean, if everyone wanted it, YOU wouldn't be senior enough to hold it.

Can we stop the "my overnight is better than yours" BS now?

Bubba

I think the point that you are both making is that being junior at any airline means you don't have many options. A pilot who doesn't want to do long-range flying but is forced to isn't going to be any happier than an FO who lives on the east coast and will be spending years on reserve in Oakland getting the crappy trips that nobody else will fly.

Being an airline pilot is a far better job for pilots with seniority because that's what gives you options. When you take a job you have to consider what it will be like to be at the bottom and be willing to deal with it until things, hopefully, get better. Being senior at either DAl or SW and having control over your schedule, base, vacation and getting a lot of days off would be excellent. Being very junior at either place would be tough but everybody has to be junior before they can be senior.

 

[HowardBorden]

Actually, you are not getting my point. At FDX the 777/MD11/A300 all pay the same rate ($261/hr max). So how come I can hold ATL-MEM (incredibly easy flying) but not MEM-CDG-...? Int'l goes extremely senior at FDX. Because people like the flying, the destinations, the layovers, etc. I'd much rather layover for 60hr in SYD than 60hr in SYR. We have both.

Can't speak for the pax world but we love our int'l long haul here at FDX.

I'd like to hear from any UPS guys what the really senior flying is over there.

Regards,
Fr8-

Fair enough, I don't work at UPS, my info comes from a senior UPS F.O. I am with you on this one though: "I'd much rather layover for 60hr in SYD than 60hr in SYR. We have both." I wholeheartedly agree SYD sounds more fun than SYR for 60 hours. My question is this, why in the world would you spend 60 hours in SYR? Is it for crew rest? If these are typical domestic layovers then maybe that is the answer to the question why international goes senior. I am told that UPS domestic flying allows for shorter trips and shorter layovers translating to more time at home and less back side of the clock flying all for the same pay. I also would love some UPS guys to chime in since my data comes from only one person and may be tied to his personal preferences.

From another forum:

Question:
"Avoiding red eyes/int'l at FDX/UPS Yeah, I know, an oxymoron.

Still, just wondering: how long does it take to hold a regular domestic daytime schedule? For example, daytime hub turns. No night flying and no crossing int'l time zones?

Answer:

I've been at FedEx for 25 years, I'll let you know. I don't have the seniority quite yet.

 

[SWA Bubba]

WOW!
Question, Why don't pilots run airlines?
Answer, Because they don't know how to run an airline!

Now GL And Bubba you guys "are in more dire need of a blow job than any white man in history"

Hey, all -I- said was that International by itself isn't the be-all and end-all for everyone. Some people like it; some hate it; some don't care; some chase extra money regardless of the hassle-factor; some don't care as much about the extra; some place more worth on layover locations; etc., etc. To each their own. I'm not trying to run an airline; you have me confused with someone else.

But your bolded comment above does raise some interesting questions:

1. How do you know whether I'm white or not? Do non-whites get blown more, or do whites just need it more?
2. How do you know that I, in particular, am in need? How do you know that I'm not getting blown whilst sitting at the keyboard?
and finally...
3. You offering your services? Are you a professional, uh... "blower"?

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

I think the point that you are both making is that being junior at any airline means you don't have many options. A pilot who doesn't want to do long-range flying but is forced to isn't going to be any happier than an FO who lives on the east coast and will be spending years on reserve in Oakland getting the crappy trips that nobody else will fly.

Being an airline pilot is a far better job for pilots with seniority because that's what gives you options. When you take a job you have to consider what it will be like to be at the bottom and be willing to deal with it until things, hopefully, get better. Being senior at either DAl or SW and having control over your schedule, base, vacation and getting a lot of days off would be excellent. Being very junior at either place would be tough but everybody has to be junior before they can be senior.

True 'dat.

Bubba

 

[fr8doggie]

Fair enough, I don't work at UPS, my info comes from a senior UPS F.O. I am with you on this one though: "I'd much rather layover for 60hr in SYD than 60hr in SYR. We have both." I wholeheartedly agree SYD sounds more fun than SYR for 60 hours. My question is this, why in the world would you spend 60 hours in SYR? Is it for crew rest? If these are typical domestic layovers then maybe that is the answer to the question why international goes senior. I am told that UPS domestic flying allows for shorter trips and shorter layovers translating to more time at home and less back side of the clock flying all for the same pay. I also would love some UPS guys to chime in since my data comes from only one person and may be tied to his personal preferences.

From another forum:

Question:
"Avoiding red eyes/int'l at FDX/UPS Yeah, I know, an oxymoron.

Still, just wondering: how long does it take to hold a regular domestic daytime schedule? For example, daytime hub turns. No night flying and no crossing int'l time zones?

Answer:

I've been at FedEx for 25 years, I'll let you know. I don't have the seniority quite yet.

We have long layovers because that fits the FedEx business model. Either over a weekend or because the cost of D/Hing crews in and out is more expensive than laying us over.

Not to say that my FDX associate is exaggerating but I could have held 10 day only lines in May. Not to mention several PM out and back lines. That's as a Capt. An F/O could probably hold that after 5 or so years if he stayed on the 757. What I couldn't have held was ANY international flying. That's at about 40% on the MEM MD11. Been here 24 years. Gets worse on the 777. I'd be about 90% there.

Now, the guy who lives in SYR is all over that 60hr layover.

Regards,
Fr8-

 

[HowardBorden]

We have long layovers because that fits the FedEx business model. Either over a weekend or because the cost of D/Hing crews in and out is more expensive than laying us over.

Not to say that my FDX associate is exaggerating but I could have held 10 day only lines in May. Not to mention several PM out and back lines. That's as a Capt. An F/O could probably hold that after 5 or so years if he stayed on the 757. What I couldn't have held was ANY international flying. That's at about 40% on the MEM MD11. Been here 24 years. Gets worse on the 777. I'd be about 90% there.

Now, the guy who lives in SYR is all over that 60hr layover.

Regards,
Fr8-

Got it, thanks for the info.

 

[dalad]

Here's my take, I like both the domestic and international flying, and won't bid out of my category because of that. i like the international flying for the rest breaks, three man or four man, a bunk if four man. I have never had a problem sleeping which is a huge plus. I also like the domestic transcons and the long turns to the islands were we use two crews. I do the SXM and STT turns out of JFK and get about 8:30-8:45 pay for a day. I just did an out of base pickup were I flew ATL-JAX, 9:30 layover and back by 9:30 the next morning.The 3 hour breaks on the international flights are a big plus. The 76ER has got the best of both worlds and I don't plan on moving up to the 330, 777 or 747 as they don't offer the variety.

 

[General Lee]

Just like that FDX 60 hour SYD layover, the most senior 7ER trip at DL long haul is the 99 hour Palau layover, with downed Japanese Zeros in the bay. That island was a part of "Survivor Palau", yet our crews stay at a very nice resort, and it's an up and coming resort destinations for the Japanese. That layover is a part of a 12 day trip that rotates through the MSP, SEA, and LAX bases. (Not ATL unfortunately)

Then again, any 7ER pilot can also pick up domestic turns, 2 day trips, etc. Lots of variety.

And Fam62c is correct, being senior at any airline helps. Don't expect the best trips for years, unless there are huge retirements coming.....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

Well, since this is a SWA thread-
That's part of the draw here- pairing parity is fairly even- I've had great schedules from day 1 on reserve-
But duly noted if I was an east coast guy commuting-
Holidays off
Weekends etc dont change-
But quality of trip?
Pretty standard-
It's premium that goes senior

 

[redflyer65]

12 day trip? No thanks.

 

[waveflyer]

Hey, if people like them- great-
I like 3 on 4 off
And PM only

But whatever-
My point still stands that we don't spend so much of the career chasing the carrot
Which gives us less stress and better unity

 

[General Lee]

12 day trip? No thanks.

Red, what you are missing is the 30-35 days off before your next trip. That is why guys fly them, along with one commute a month, usually one leg days to a nice beach resort (in Asia), and higher pay and per diem. If the trip has multiple crossings (Atlantic or Pacific which is called a "six pack" for 6 total back and forth pacific crossings in 12 days---could be Honolulu to Japan and back with every other layover in HNL), that means one leg a day with 3 or more pilots, rest breaks, and ice cream sundaes available if wanted. Great deal, and not as many legs each day.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[fam62c]

Well, since this is a SWA thread-
That's part of the draw here- pairing parity is fairly even- I've had great schedules from day 1 on reserve-
But duly noted if I was an east coast guy commuting-
Holidays off
Weekends etc dont change-
But quality of trip?
Pretty standard-
It's premium that goes senior

So a senior pilot doesn't have the ability to adjust their schedule to avoid 4+ leg days if they don't like them? All the pairings at SW can't be identical, are there four-day and three-day trips? What about am vs. pm? I find it hard to believe that the most senior pilots and the most junior pilots are flying the same trips unless the most senior pilots are doing it by choice. The "quality" of the trip may involve more than productivity which may be fairly even. There still has to be choices available to more senior pilots that are not available to more junior pilots.

Don't get me wrong though, if the productivity of the pairings is about equal that's very good because even the junior pilots can get good credit and many days off.....nice.

 

[HowardBorden]

So a senior pilot doesn't have the ability to adjust their schedule to avoid 4+ leg days if they don't like them? All the pairings at SW can't be identical, are there four-day and three-day trips? What about am vs. pm? I find it hard to believe that the most senior pilots and the most junior pilots are flying the same trips unless the most senior pilots are doing it by choice. The "quality" of the trip may involve more than productivity which may be fairly even. There still has to be choices available to more senior pilots that are not available to more junior pilots.

Don't get me wrong though, if the productivity of the pairings is about equal that's very good because even the junior pilots can get good credit and many days off.....nice.

All pairings in all bases can be flown by any pilot that actually wants them. We don't have Pref Bid at SWA. Each pilot will bid and be awarded a line in his domicile. After lines have been awarded the true fun begins. On the 25th of each month, ELITT (Electronic Line Improvement Trip Trade) begins. Any pairing in open time is put on the open market for any pilot in base to trade their unwanted pairings with open time pairings. What generally happens is pilots flying weekend trips attempt to switch them for weekday pairings. Junior guys have a decent chance of trading out of weekend flying if they are there to make the trade as soon as ELITT opens.

Trip trade/give away allows pilots from any base to trade or pick up any trip placed in this system by a pilot. Some pilots will give away trips in their domicile and pick up trips in another domicile if it is beneficial to them. If you pick up a trip from a domicile other than your own, you are able to trade that trip via ELITT in the domicile which it originates.

Remember that at SWA every pilot is qualified to fly every trip in the system because we only have one fleet type.

Open pairings that are still in the system close to the date of departure will go into the open time bidding system. Pilots are able to bid for these pairings in seniority order at straight pay or premium pay (time and a half). Normally, any pilot willing to fly the pairing at straight time will be awarded the pairing before it is awarded at time and a half.

Senior pilots will bid the line of their choice taking into consideration: line pay, days worked, legs per day, layovers etc.

Pairing construction is based on the following rules:

SCHEDULE QUALITY
1. Pairings built during the pairing construction process will not exceed a System wide average
pairing length of three (3.0) duty periods.
2. The System wide Pairing Mix will consist of:
a. Minimum one (1) day pairings equal to or greater than five percent (5%) of pairings;
b. Minimum two (2) day pairings equal to or greater than five percent (5%) of pairings;
c. Minimum three (3) day pairings equal to or greater than fifty-five percent (55%) of
pairings; and
d. Maximum four (4) day pairings equal to or less than twenty percent (20%) of pairings

 

[waveflyer]

Red, what you are missing is the 30-35 days off before your next trip. That is why guys fly them, along with one commute a month, usually one leg days to a nice beach resort (in Asia), and higher pay and per diem. If the trip has multiple crossings (Atlantic or Pacific which is called a "six pack" for 6 total back and forth pacific crossings in 12 days---could be Honolulu to Japan and back with every other layover in HNL), that means one leg a day with 3 or more pilots, rest breaks, and ice cream sundaes available if wanted. Great deal, and not as many legs each day.



Bye Bye---General Lee

That's great, honestly- but here's the problem with your widebody obsession- it creates natural divisions. Because dalpa, and ALPA in general, compensate widebody flying so much greater- these divisions grow and the pilot/human disease of "I'll be happy when...." occurs. The pilot/human disease of "i make more $$= i am better than...i can stand a little taller around my peers." occurs. "i can look down on them" occurs?? sometimes?
You know it does.
envy grows.
pride is fostered.
Next thing you know, you're 5 years from retirement and you spent much of it in relative transition, and the career that should've got you out of the rat race, had you in one anyway. Collectively self inflicted.

The flip side to choice GL, is that you have a choice.
"Where there is clarity, there is no choice.
Where there is choice, there is misery."

Awfully hard to stay in the moment, if there's always a bigger carrot to chase; if there's always a big financial motive to get in the rat race and chase that carrot.

You keep hopping on multiple leg days as if delta doesn't fly them on domestic aircraft. Do you see the subtle way you look down on your md90 flyers? Your own 73 drivers? The war against the major airline domestic flying hasn't just been management- they're simply seizing on the divisions pilots have created for ourselves. You aren't a real pilot at most ALPA legacies, until you're a widebody captain- and then you need to be on the newest and largest and overnighting to the most desired locations. (All things you CONSTANTLY harp on general. ) After the last decade of paycuts and concessions, can you see how we do not have time for even subtle divisions like this. And for many an egotistical pilot, it isn't subtle. They finally got to the widebody. And damn it they will enjoy being king. Finally.

What happened to respecting the Flyer? We'll all Fly West one day- and it's too long a career to create our own rat race and carrot chases- dividing us and conquering us with the ego of "I am better than my brother. I am better than my professional peers"

For all the arrogance we get accused of here on FI, defending SWA- we don't, by and large, have the arrogance and divisions of other airlines within ourselves. We fly 737's and are proud to be flyers. That's it. Our old guard is proud of that. If we get a bigger plane, most everyone I've talked to agrees we should set up a UPS like system where we blend the rates, and let pilots fly the type of flying they WANT to fly. The type that fits best with their life. Not the type they feel financially obligated to. Life, love, and family is real and intersects with money. Don't create a system where the choice is money that will affect our families, or the type of flying that will work best for our families. Thats not a choice that gives a net positive to a life or career.

Of all our negatives, one thing SWA gets, is life. And priorities. And it bleeds into scheduling & pay & contracts here. One the industry ought to look at. We can't control management. But we can do what our contracts can do and be wiser.

 

[fr8doggie]

If we get a bigger plane, most everyone I've talked to agrees we should set up a UPS like system where we blend the rates, and let pilots fly the type of flying they WANT to fly.

What makes you think GK would ever be interested in paying SWAPA pilots a higher, blended rate than you get now?

And remember, always take his first offer because any subsequent deal will be worse.

Regards,
Fr8-

 

[texman]

What makes you think GK would ever be interested in paying SWAPA pilots a higher, blended rate than you get now?

And remember, always take his first offer because any subsequent deal will be worse.

Regards,
Fr8-

I think it will be same pay across the board. It will be slightly higher but not much. What I like is are cost are very close to Spirts and ALGT, our biggest threat.

 

[General Lee]

That's great, honestly- but here's the problem with your widebody obsession- it creates natural divisions. Because dalpa, and ALPA in general, compensate widebody flying so much greater- these divisions grow and the pilot/human disease of "I'll be happy when...." occurs. The pilot/human disease of "i make more $$= i am better than...i can stand a little taller around my peers." occurs. "i can look down on them" occurs?? sometimes?
You know it does.
envy grows.
pride is fostered.
Next thing you know, you're 5 years from retirement and you spent much of it in relative transition, and the career that should've got you out of the rat race, had you in one anyway. Collectively self inflicted.

The flip side to choice GL, is that you have a choice.
"Where there is clarity, there is no choice.
Where there is choice, there is misery."

Awfully hard to stay in the moment, if there's always a bigger carrot to chase; if there's always a big financial motive to get in the rat race and chase that carrot.

You keep hopping on multiple leg days as if delta doesn't fly them on domestic aircraft. Do you see the subtle way you look down on your md90 flyers? Your own 73 drivers? The war against the major airline domestic flying hasn't just been management- they're simply seizing on the divisions pilots have created for ourselves. You aren't a real pilot at most ALPA legacies, until you're a widebody captain- and then you need to be on the newest and largest and overnighting to the most desired locations. (All things you CONSTANTLY harp on general. ) After the last decade of paycuts and concessions, can you see how we do not have time for even subtle divisions like this. And for many an egotistical pilot, it isn't subtle. They finally got to the widebody. And damn it they will enjoy being king. Finally.

What happened to respecting the Flyer? We'll all Fly West one day- and it's too long a career to create our own rat race and carrot chases- dividing us and conquering us with the ego of "I am better than my brother. I am better than my professional peers"

For all the arrogance we get accused of here on FI, defending SWA- we don't, by and large, have the arrogance and divisions of other airlines within ourselves. We fly 737's and are proud to be flyers. That's it. Our old guard is proud of that. If we get a bigger plane, most everyone I've talked to agrees we should set up a UPS like system where we blend the rates, and let pilots fly the type of flying they WANT to fly. The type that fits best with their life. Not the type they feel financially obligated to. Life, love, and family is real and intersects with money. Don't create a system where the choice is money that will affect our families, or the type of flying that will work best for our families. Thats not a choice that gives a net positive to a life or career.

Of all our negatives, one thing SWA gets, is life. And priorities. And it bleeds into scheduling & pay & contracts here. One the industry ought to look at. We can't control management. But we can do what our contracts can do and be wiser.

Soooooooooo, you're against choice? What?? You'd rather have NO choice? Oh-Kay.........

Some guys like domestic, some want INTL. Here, you can do both. The 7ER category flies both domestic and INTL. When it comes to contract negotiations, some guys want certain things, but you vote on it and move on. I don't see any INTL guys talking poorly about domestic only guys (like Dc9 etc). Nope. If they want to try it, they can bid it. It's called a choice, and it's FANTASTIC.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Dash Power]

they want to try it, they can bid it. It's called a choice, and it's FANTASTIC.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Good for you. We all get it. We have for years now. You are wonderful because you are convincing everyone that your airline is better than everyone else's. If only I could get the hours back wishing, just wishing upon a star that I could be like GL and work for Delta. Oh well. I guess I just have to get back in the piece of crap 737 and fly another overnight to LBB. Oh well.

If you were not on this board it would be so much more constructive instead of your neurotic need to prove yourself. Instead more and more people are off this forum because of the atmosphere you produce and that means advertising dollars. But that is the owners choice. The guy(s) who run this must have the same needs as GL. Poor business in any schools book.