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Southwest and shortcuts...

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BillJBrake

BillJBrake

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Posts
156
Do you guys get paid for the total amount of shortcuts you can get, per leg?

It seems like every Southwest plane, on every frequency, checks on and asks for a shortcut. Even if the previous controller had just given him one, or the frequency is obviously congested and the controller is busy, you can count on the Southwest pilots to ask for shortcuts. I love it when the controller straight up, turn them down!

Knock it off...it's ok to ask for one here or there, or every so often, but on EVERY FLIGHT, and EVERY FREQUENCY? I feel like they're becoming known as the needy bunch...
 
BillJBrake said:
Do you guys get paid for the total amount of shortcuts you can get, per leg?

It seems like every Southwest plane, on every frequency, checks on and asks for a shortcut. Even if the previous controller had just given him one, or the frequency is obviously congested and the controller is busy, you can count on the Southwest pilots to ask for shortcuts. I love it when the controller straight up, turn them down!

Knock it off...it's ok to ask for one here or there, or every so often, but on EVERY FLIGHT, and EVERY FREQUENCY? I feel like they're becoming known as the needy bunch...
Click to expand...


Dude, really? What the he!! do you care? You fly your airplanes, and we'll fly ours, how about that? Oh, and we'll make an a$$ load of money flying ours...moron.
 
BillJBrake said:
Do you guys get paid for the total amount of shortcuts you can get, per leg?

It seems like every Southwest plane, on every frequency, checks on and asks for a shortcut. Even if the previous controller had just given him one, or the frequency is obviously congested and the controller is busy, you can count on the Southwest pilots to ask for shortcuts. I love it when the controller straight up, turn them down!

Knock it off...it's ok to ask for one here or there, or every so often, but on EVERY FLIGHT, and EVERY FREQUENCY? I feel like they're becoming known as the needy bunch...
Click to expand...
calling us needy, not very respectful youngster. Here's a respectful response: long after your airline is bankrupt and you are working as an assistant manager at Arby's, we will still be asking for shortcuts on every frequency to save time and gas. Saving time allows us to fly another day to make more money. Saving gas allows our company to undercut your company, which allows us to make more money.
 
same moron was giving out ATC FAA hiring advice months ago. He averages one to two posts a month, probably on his one day of computer access at the local juvenile mental health ward.

we will see him again mid-October.
 
to save 20 sec on our flight...

economies of scale.. 20 sec * 3300 flights a day = 66,000 seconds aka 1100 minutes or 18 hours 15 minutes at day at ~4400llbs/hr = ~80,700llbs or 11,500 gallons a day or about 4 1/4 million gallons a year.. which depending on fuel prices is worth about $10 million dollers for my company....

all this just from taking a few seconds to ask for a shortcut.... ummm.. hell yea!!!!
 
I'd understand the time savings....*IF* it were always true.

But how about on a transcon when 3 airlines on the same city pairing are going on a COMPLETELY different route to stay out of headwinds, meanwhile the southwest guy begs for direct to the initial fix on the arrival and *GETS* it....I'm pretty sure that'll INCREASE their flight time going right into the winds, vs the guy who stays on his optimum route filed to keep him away from the stronger headwinds.
 
satpak77 said:
idiot.
Click to expand...

still frustrated that I had rather accurate and helpful info on ATC hiring and pay rates? I'm sorry, that's unfortunate.

I'm sure it frustrates you to think the information can come from someone who's profile screams "line boy"! Don't worry satpak, you'll figure out life one day!!
 
BillJBrake said:
I'd understand the time savings....*IF* it were always true.

But how about on a transcon when 3 airlines on the same city pairing are going on a COMPLETELY different route to stay out of headwinds, meanwhile the southwest guy begs for direct to the initial fix on the arrival and *GETS* it....I'm pretty sure that'll INCREASE their flight time going right into the winds, vs the guy who stays on his optimum route filed to keep him away from the stronger headwinds.
Click to expand...

I've been at three carriers and had crews do that at all three. It's not just SWA.
 
It's your kind of mentality that has resulted in stupid unnecessary inefficiencies that result in airlines floundering. Your mgmt must be proud.

As for us SWA guys "begging" for shortcuts, that's quite a bit of hyperbole. Asking once is not begging. And btw, we get the shortcut easily 80% of the time, so it must not be a problem. Have fun taking the long route. (I'm sure your cockpit-mate finds you to be a real joy on those extra minutes in the air.)
 
BillJBrake said:
I'd understand the time savings....*IF* it were always true.

But how about on a transcon when 3 airlines on the same city pairing are going on a COMPLETELY different route to stay out of headwinds, meanwhile the southwest guy begs for direct to the initial fix on the arrival and *GETS* it....I'm pretty sure that'll INCREASE their flight time going right into the winds, vs the guy who stays on his optimum route filed to keep him away from the stronger headwinds.
Click to expand...

Bill,

Our FMC has climb, enroute and descent winds. We know before we ask if a shortcut will save/cost us time/fuel.

As the other guy said - seconds are seconds.

Gup
 
Guppy beat me to it. We KNOW the best wind routes. GENERALLY we're not too stupid to stay on that route if it's the best savings in fuel. Time has virtually no meaning to most of us. It's all about saving fuel and increasing profits. Don't like it? Too bad...
 
BillJBrake said:
I'd understand the time savings....*IF* it were always true.

But how about on a transcon when 3 airlines on the same city pairing are going on a COMPLETELY different route to stay out of headwinds, meanwhile the southwest guy begs for direct to the initial fix on the arrival and *GETS* it....I'm pretty sure that'll INCREASE their flight time going right into the winds, vs the guy who stays on his optimum route filed to keep him away from the stronger headwinds.
Click to expand...

Bill,

We're all well aware of our best wind route, and in your scenario, we wouldn't ask in the first place. Any pilot worth his/her salt is aware of this stuff.

We're not amatuers.
 
Dear Bill

The short answer to your question is yes. We get paid by shortcut.

My nextdoor neighbor (AA for 20+ years) was totally confused by how/why/what we get paid but after living next to him a few years he had an epiphany and he realized wow. Mutually beneficial to the company and the pilots and you guys can make more money.

This is because we get paid per mile we are supposed to fly. But if we fly less miles/time we still get paid per mile we were supposed to fly. And if we cut off time with fast taxi or shorter (non-active runway) taxi we can make ourselves legal to fly more and make more money (oftentimes at premium pay). Again, mutually beneficial to the company and the pilots.

This is a hard thing to wrap your head around but the bottom line is that greed makes SWA go. We have pilots who average 200 trips a month. And we have pilots who fly well less than 80 trips a month. Flexibility to do the extremes or something in between. But getting paid by the trip is incentive to help the company (and not slow down).

Hope this wasn't disrespectful.

Cheers.
 
luvfan said:
This is a hard thing to wrap your head around but the bottom line is that greed makes SWA go.

Hope this wasn't disrespectful.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

Greed is a slippery slope to operate an aircraft on......it usually takes care of its self over time.
 
You mean like flying slow and not asking for short cuts so as to increase block time? Is that kind of greed on a slippery slope?
 
Dear PBR

PBR you are slicing the post to quote out of context.

Most airlines pay/hour flown.
SWA pay is pay/mile on the planned leg.

This is not the convention. SWA puts the company and the pilots on the same team. It's business so the intent is to make money. We are working for a company that is trying to make money. We are doing a job. The reason we work is to make money. Why do you work? Slippery slope?

This isn't any different that any other job. Our opportunity to make more money is greater if we operate more efficiently. Taken to an extreme this could be a bad thing (flying 340 knots below 10,000') Asking for a shortcut? Slippery slope? Come on!
 
I once attended a dog and pony show at Fort Worth Center with my reserve unit. We talked to the controllers and watched over their shoulder for a while at different scopes to exchange info/ask questions, get the bigger picture. They each asked who we flew for. We would tell them USNR and SWA. Each time, their face would light up when we said SWA, and they would tell us they love SWA, because we seem to always be able to do what we are asked without biatching about it. They said we are the easiest to work with. Not my words. Just telling you what numerous controllers told me.

So I doubt they think we are needy for asking for short cuts. They seem to think the other guys are needy/unhelpful. How's that for SWA culture?
 
elcid said:
Each time, their face would light up when we said SWA, and they would tell us they love SWA, because we seem to always be able to do what we are asked without biatching about it.
Click to expand...

This is 100% true. I've heard it from numerous controllers in different centers. Why?

The most perishable commodity is a slot in the ATC system. The controller's whole job is to fit aircraft into these slots. SWA pilots in general have the reputation of a willingness to do whatever it takes to fill that slot the controller has built.

That's why I laugh to myself when I hear guys biatching about the legendary SWA pizza parties in the towers. The simple fact of the matter is SWA guys do what it takes and the controllers know they can depend on SWA pilots to help make the system work.

As to shortcuts...with the advent of FMS and LNAV every airline is asking for direct when necessary.
 
Simplify.

Change Southwest callsign to "AnyShortcuts 1234". That lets you check on and get faster flights all in one swoop.
 
kwick said:
And you can taxi faster with
two engines running!

That must really save some gas.
Click to expand...

Welcome back Kwick! Where you been?

When your average taxi out is under 7 minutes it's just easier to start 'em both up and get out of Dodge!

Gup
 

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