Some UAL/CAL News (For Those Interested)

[bizicmo]

andy unfortunately I think any contract put up to vote will pass. 25% of the pilots on the list retire in the next 7 years, all yes votes. From there you only need about 35% of the rest of the pilots to vote yes to get to 51% overall. I know I made a big blanket statement there but I think everyone understands what I'm getting at. The term alpa eats their young didn't come from nowhere.

 

[EWR_FO]

andy unfortunately I think any contract put up to vote will pass. 25% of the pilots on the list retire in the next 7 years, all yes votes. From there you only need about 35% of the rest of the pilots to vote yes to get to 51% overall. I know I made a big blanket statement there but I think everyone understands what I'm getting at. The term alpa eats their young didn't come from nowhere.

It's actually 50% plus one vote and you are dead on about the majority of guys approaching retirement, I have flown with dozens of them who don't give a crap about anything except the signing bonus and/or retro pay.

 

[Andy]

andy unfortunately I think any contract put up to vote will pass. 25% of the pilots on the list retire in the next 7 years, all yes votes. From there you only need about 35% of the rest of the pilots to vote yes to get to 51% overall. I know I made a big blanket statement there but I think everyone understands what I'm getting at. The term alpa eats their young didn't come from nowhere.

We can speculate until the TA is release but I haven't heard a single rumor suggesting anything near LCAL rules. Besides, the current LCAL work rules do not meet the new FAR requirements.

On a more likely scenario, Superman vs Hulk, who do you think would win?

 

[Andy]

It's actually 50% plus one vote and you are dead on about the majority of guys approaching retirement, I have flown with dozens of them who don't give a crap about anything except the signing bonus and/or retro pay.

But the breakdown's not 7 years until retirement; it's more like 3 years until retirement. Those guys can take a big retro check and retire early; someone with 7 years remaining can't do that.

 

[densoo]

But the breakdown's not 7 years until retirement; it's more like 3 years until retirement. Those guys can take a big retro check and retire early; someone with 7 years remaining can't do that.

IMO No one's retiring early. Ever. 3 years, 7 years, 1 year, 1 day, retro of $50k, $100k, $250k. No matter how much they have they're not walking away from $15-$20k per month.

 

[i fly boxes]

I just heard a rumor of 451 vacancies in the cal system bid that was just released? Can anyone verify this?

 

[Furloughed80]

Yes, 451 vacancies. Positions available in every base, fleet, and seat except for IAH 777 and CLE 737. Let the hiring begin....

EDIT: No GUM 737 CA or IAH 756 FO vacancies either.

 

[Andy]

I just heard a rumor of 451 vacancies in the cal system bid that was just released? Can anyone verify this?

More important for hiring, 158 737 FO vacancies.

 

[Andy]

Here's the update from 28 Aug to LUAL furloughees:

Aug. 28, 2012 | Issue 26
Update on class offerings
No L-UAL classes start this year, L-CAL classes added in November and December
We have two updates to share related to L-UAL recall and L-CAL new hire pilot classes.
No L-UAL classes to start in 2012
Our Crew Resources group recently confirmed that there will be no L-UAL recall classes scheduled to begin during the remainder of 2012. Estimates for 2013 fleet and block hour plans continue to change on a weekly basis, so the timing and number of pilots potentially recalled remains uncertain. We will provide updates as we receive more information.
We add L-CAL new hire classes in November and December
L-CAL plans to continue hiring with training class dates in November and December 2012. Class start dates are November 6, 13, and 27, and December 4, 11 and 18. Assignments primarily will be 737 with some 757 First Officer positions. EWR and IAH domiciles will be available.
Currently, 382 furloughed L-UAL pilots have accepted positions at L-CAL, 241 have deferred due to military commitments, and 812 are on bypass status. As before, any pilots currently on bypass or military deferment status should notify Charlie V, Manager – Pilot Development, if they wish to re-enter the hiring process. You can reach Charlie at
No action is needed on the part of pilots who do not wish to re-enter the L-CAL hiring process at this time; they will simply remain on either bypass or military deferment status without implication or penalty. However, those pilots who remain on bypass will be accommodated only as future vacancies become available should L-CAL continue hiring.



As far as I know, LUAL furloughees who accepted positions at LCAL only filled classes through October so unless more accept the job, they'll need to fill the Nov and Dec classes with off the street hires.

 

[UALRATT]

Here's the update from 28 Aug to LUAL furloughees:

Aug. 28, 2012 | Issue 26
Update on class offerings
No L-UAL classes start this year, L-CAL classes added in November and December
We have two updates to share related to L-UAL recall and L-CAL new hire pilot classes.
No L-UAL classes to start in 2012
Our Crew Resources group recently confirmed that there will be no L-UAL recall classes scheduled to begin during the remainder of 2012. Estimates for 2013 fleet and block hour plans continue to change on a weekly basis, so the timing and number of pilots potentially recalled remains uncertain. We will provide updates as we receive more information.
We add L-CAL new hire classes in November and December
L-CAL plans to continue hiring with training class dates in November and December 2012. Class start dates are November 6, 13, and 27, and December 4, 11 and 18. Assignments primarily will be 737 with some 757 First Officer positions. EWR and IAH domiciles will be available.
Currently, 382 furloughed L-UAL pilots have accepted positions at L-CAL, 241 have deferred due to military commitments, and 812 are on bypass status. As before, any pilots currently on bypass or military deferment status should notify Charlie V, Manager – Pilot Development, if they wish to re-enter the hiring process. You can reach Charlie at
No action is needed on the part of pilots who do not wish to re-enter the L-CAL hiring process at this time; they will simply remain on either bypass or military deferment status without implication or penalty. However, those pilots who remain on bypass will be accommodated only as future vacancies become available should L-CAL continue hiring.



As far as I know, LUAL furloughees who accepted positions at LCAL only filled classes through October so unless more accept the job, they'll need to fill the Nov and Dec classes with off the street hires.

Piggy backing of Andy, the L-CAL hiring manager has indicated he will begin filling the Nov and Dec classes with L-UAL furloughees who have elected to re-enter the L-CAL hiring process. Won't know the actual number of furloughees who have elected to re-enter until later in September.

 

[pilotgolfer]

Piggy backing of Andy, the L-CAL hiring manager has indicated he will begin filling the Nov and Dec classes with L-UAL furloughees who have elected to re-enter the L-CAL hiring process. Won't know the actual number of furloughees who have elected to re-enter until later in September.

I think I read that Sept 10th was the deadline for those guys to respond. I believe he will publish the rest of the class rosters shortly after that.

 

[General Lee]

Here's the update from 28 Aug to LUAL furloughees:

Aug. 28, 2012 | Issue 26
Update on class offerings
No L-UAL classes start this year, L-CAL classes added in November and December
We have two updates to share related to L-UAL recall and L-CAL new hire pilot classes.
No L-UAL classes to start in 2012
Our Crew Resources group recently confirmed that there will be no L-UAL recall classes scheduled to begin during the remainder of 2012. Estimates for 2013 fleet and block hour plans continue to change on a weekly basis, so the timing and number of pilots potentially recalled remains uncertain. We will provide updates as we receive more information.
We add L-CAL new hire classes in November and December
L-CAL plans to continue hiring with training class dates in November and December 2012. Class start dates are November 6, 13, and 27, and December 4, 11 and 18. Assignments primarily will be 737 with some 757 First Officer positions. EWR and IAH domiciles will be available.
Currently, 382 furloughed L-UAL pilots have accepted positions at L-CAL, 241 have deferred due to military commitments, and 812 are on bypass status. As before, any pilots currently on bypass or military deferment status should notify Charlie V, Manager – Pilot Development, if they wish to re-enter the hiring process. You can reach Charlie at
No action is needed on the part of pilots who do not wish to re-enter the L-CAL hiring process at this time; they will simply remain on either bypass or military deferment status without implication or penalty. However, those pilots who remain on bypass will be accommodated only as future vacancies become available should L-CAL continue hiring.



As far as I know, LUAL furloughees who accepted positions at LCAL only filled classes through October so unless more accept the job, they'll need to fill the Nov and Dec classes with off the street hires.

Gotta question for you Andy. When you came back to UAL (CAL 737), did you get credit for your time away (longevity), or did you come back at year 2 pay etc? Did you come back at CAL rates or UAL rates? Hopefully in your new contract you will get credit for time on furlough. The NWA guys that came back got full credit. If they flew at NWA for one year before being furloughed, and came back 5 years later, they came back at 6th year pay.

It's good to see things are moving over there. Hopefully you will get that contract done and some retro pay along with it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[mike12345]

How important have internal recs been for Continental in the past? All my friends are at United. Would those carry in weight in this?

 

[Patriot328]

How important have internal recs been for Continental in the past? All my friends are at United. Would those carry in weight in this?

It will probably carry weight (UAL and CAL will all be the same group). While internal recs are important, it's possible to get in without them. I did.

 

[densoo]

How important have internal recs been for Continental in the past? All my friends are at United. Would those carry in weight in this?

Every airline has their own way of figuring out which of the thousands of apps to interview. The CAL process for getting an interview seems pretty informal but you having flown with a pilot on the property seems to weigh heavily. But there are so many written internal recs those can get lost in the paper shuffle as well.

If you have personally flown with any of your friends at United (military, regionals, etc) then have them go into a CAL chief pilot's office to give a verbal rec emphasizing the fact that they flew with you. Then have them follow up with an email to the same chief pilot (he'll likely ask for this anyway). The chief pilot will then forward this to the guy in charge of interviews recommending you get an interview.

This is how I got my interview. Then after I'd been on the property for just a couple of years I did exactly the same, twice, for guys I had flown with and they both got interviews shortly after. I was somewhat surprised as I was pretty new, but the company values an internal rec from someone you've flown with, and the visit/email/forwarded email is the easiest way for them.

 

[Chairman]

Gotta question for you Andy. When you came back to UAL (CAL 737), did you get credit for your time away (longevity), or did you come back at year 2 pay etc? Did you come back at CAL rates or UAL rates? Hopefully in your new contract you will get credit for time on furlough. The NWA guys that came back got full credit. If they flew at NWA for one year before being furloughed, and came back 5 years later, they came back at 6th year pay.

It's good to see things are moving over there. Hopefully you will get that contract done and some retro pay along with it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

You got over at your last UAL pay rate. You stay at that rate until your CAL longevity would pay you more.

 

[Andy]

Gotta question for you Andy. When you came back to UAL (CAL 737), did you get credit for your time away (longevity), or did you come back at year 2 pay etc? Did you come back at CAL rates or UAL rates? Hopefully in your new contract you will get credit for time on furlough. The NWA guys that came back got full credit. If they flew at NWA for one year before being furloughed, and came back 5 years later, they came back at 6th year pay.

It's good to see things are moving over there. Hopefully you will get that contract done and some retro pay along with it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Sorry, I haven't ben back here for a few days. I see Chairman's (love the name/avatar ... Come Fly With Me is a classic) already posted the answer.
I'm drawing yr 4 75/76 pay for LUAL. There are some voluntary furloughees who were 777 and 747 CAs drawing their old pay rates as 737 FOs.

I've been a HUGE advocate of full pay and longevity for time on furlough and have circulated your contract verbiage to all UAL MEC and LEC representatives. Unfortunately, there are some who view furloughees as not having contributed to the company operation while we on involuntary furlough so we don't deserve anything. Rather disheartening to see and hear that crap from professed unionists.
Delta's furlough pay/longevity verbiage should be industry standard and just one more reason for me to HATE ALPA. It's a 'pull up the ladder; I've got mine' union. And that's not what unions are supposed to be about.

 

[Dan Roman]

Delta is ALPA.

 

[Skippy]

I agree andy, the pull up the ladder mentality stops when u and i take key positions.
We will get longevity

 

[Dan Roman]

The point being, ALPA is just the resource available. How a pilot group uses it is their responsibility. Perhaps you are pointing out a failure of UAL leadership rather than a fault of ALPA? My airline is ALPA and no one has ever even hinted that they throw their junior pilots under the bus, but you are not the first UAL pilot to express that sentiment.

 

[saabservant]

I was just about to ask if anyone knows whether ual furloughs can expect longevity for time out when returning.
I'm very close to the bottom of the furlough list, ergo the entire seniority list.
Working at a delta connection carrier now at approx. 37 bucks an hour.
If I take a lcal position in november or december, I will go back at 33 bucks an hour.
No way am i coming back for a pay cut! Hard enough to be sitting right seat in a crj at low wages, after paying dues to alpa national for 10 years at mesaba.
So, no return for me until the new contract is ratified and implemented,
and hoping we get longevity. It is only right......

Anyone here know whether this was included in the agreement in principle?
if not why not?

Thanks

 

[Chairman]

I was just about to ask if anyone knows whether ual furloughs can expect longevity for time out when returning.
I'm very close to the bottom of the furlough list, ergo the entire seniority list.
Working at a delta connection carrier now at approx. 37 bucks an hour.
If I take a lcal position in november or december, I will go back at 33 bucks an hour.
No way am i coming back for a pay cut! Hard enough to be sitting right seat in a crj at low wages, after paying dues to alpa national for 10 years at mesaba.
So, no return for me until the new contract is ratified and implemented,
and hoping we get longevity. It is only right......

Anyone here know whether this was included in the agreement in principle?
if not why not?

Thanks

I understand everyone has there reason for staying out but 37 to 33 is a small hourly pay cut. But you are losing 12.75% B fund. and what pay rate at Mesaba will you be making next year vs at CAL Not to mention much easier flying. Now if you don't commute I understand as commuting sucks. I think those jr who go back now pre contract stand the biggest chance of making out if the contract is settled. Other wise it could be a another year or 2 being out as senior guys come back at a decent pay rate.

Chairman

 

[xjhawk]

Okay a number of issues here-

Chairman-(for Saabservant)when one is not scraping by at their current rates and cannot pay their bills, you cannot say taking away thousands of dollars of income needed to pay bills and feed ones family is worth it. One cannot pay a car/house/grociery bills with 401k match.

Dan and Andy-I also must have to say you both have great points. Dan is right that ALPA is a tool and many of the functions of immediate impact of pilots can be blamed or credited to the Local parts of ALPA. That being said, Andy is right in how junior pilots are given in many cases nothing, no protection and generally screwed by their ALPA (Local) leadership. I can attest to that in the contracts I have been forced to live under. That ALPA national has no policies or fair procedures to deal with reoccurring issues such as protections for Furloughs or ones Seniority during mergers is pathetic. I pay ALPA to maintain the contract and protect my seniority. The contracts I have seen give landslides to senior pilots while leaving junior pilots crappy rules and pay. Take PBS for example-as a junior pilot the only good thing I had to look forward to was build up lines and when they were taken away because the company wanted to save money-the senior pilots got more days off and better schedules-I lost weekends off and 15 hours of credit a month-a thousand of dollars a month at my pay rates. QOL and pay so a senior pilot can have 2-3 days off more a month and a higher credit. Andy has a point that DAL's pilots have set a standard in regards to protections for their furloughed pilots-ALPA should adopt that as standard. Oh and just look at what happens to furloughed pilots when a merger happens-screwed-

I also give credit where credit is due for ALPA's successes. But those successes have not helped my bottom line and QOL and I am sure many other Jr pilots can say the same.

 

[saabservant]

Chairman, xjhawk, thanks for your comments, very thoughtful.
Although a 401k match is not relevant for me now, the point about going back and getting in now before senior guys take all the slots when pay goes up is a good one.
However, commuting to sit reserve in IAH or EWR is about as tough as it gets i'm told, under the cal reserve rules.....

Thanks, saabservant

 

["TheBigPicture"]

However, commuting to sit reserve in IAH or EWR is about as tough as it gets i'm told, under the cal reserve rules.....

Thanks, saabservant

That is no joke...trust me uke:

 

[densoo]

However, commuting to sit reserve in IAH or EWR is about as tough as it gets i'm told, under the cal reserve rules.....

Understatement. 18 months of commuting reserve to EWR. Nearly lost my family. Fortunately those work rules go in the "Pathetic" chapter of "Flying the Line, Vol III" as soon as JCBA is signed.

 

[saabservant]

And, when will it be signed? guessing, but if they get a ta by end of sept. i think it is
30 days for the mec's to review, then 45 to hold a ratification vote. So, ratification probably in December. Hoping to have it in place by the time I get out of training, if I take a slot in November.
If we get longevity, let's all do the macarena! I sure need it, this furlough has been a financial disaster. Love letter to management that knew they were going to furlough me when they hired me: FUPM

 

[densoo]

And, when will it be signed? guessing, but if they get a ta by end of sept. i think it is
30 days for the mec's to review, then 45 to hold a ratification vote.

MECs see it for two weeks, then pilots get 30 days to vote.

 

[greyskyracer]

Hi,

Can someone please post the reserve rules for UCAL. Min days off? long/short call? And what the "Guam Package" is? Thanks in advance

 

[CheapFlyer]

Disregard.