Some UAL/CAL News (For Those Interested)

[Andy]

What I find insulting, is that if the current situation was reversed? I don't think L-UAL would be offering ANYTHING to my fellow L-CAL pilots who were furloughed. Not a damn thing.

You need to check your history and remind yourself what UAL pilot history is and stow your attitude...

Hilarious. Reading the TPA was an order of magnitude too difficult for you?

Jeff loves ignorant pilots.

 

[Andy]

Two points: 1. If CAL had the furloughs that needed a job right now, And UAL was in CAL's position (vastly better contract) UAL wouldn't be hiring them. 2. If a pilot employee is not on probation and is a member in good standing in the same union, that ought to mean something. But it doesn't to L-UAL guys. As is evidenced by your boy Skippy:

SECTION 7-B OF THE TPA.

I'd post the content of section 7-B but there is only a certain level of sloth that I can tolerate. Find it and read it.

Flop, you're being an ignorant jackhole.

 

[Flopgut]

Hilarious. Reading the TPA was an order of magnitude too difficult for you?

Jeff loves ignorant pilots.

I read the TPA. It only exists in the form it does because UAL was in the shape it was in.

I don't remember there being a TPA discussed between UAL and USAir back in the day... Or America West. Certainly wasn't one with Frontier. If I remember correctly, RD made it clear USAir was a "purchase", America West was going to be "dismantled", and of course we all know what you did to Frontier. Let's not forget the "brain surgeon" comment back in the day.

Look guys, I'm not hinting that we are due the equal opposite of what you guys did to past airlines. I'm just saying you should not get a pass on your past behavior. L-UAL guys do a remarkable job of remembering everything that was done wrong at L-CAL over the years. But you can't remember your OWN transgressions AT ALL...

 

[eaglesview]

I read the TPA. It only exists in the form it does because UAL was in the shape it was in.

I don't remember there being a TPA discussed between UAL and USAir back in the day... Or America West. Certainly wasn't one with Frontier. If I remember correctly, RD made it clear USAir was a "purchase", America West was going to be "dismantled", and of course we all know what you did to Frontier. Let's not forget the "brain surgeon" comment back in the day.

Look guys, I'm not hinting that we are due the equal opposite of what you guys did to past airlines. I'm just saying you should not get a pass on your past behavior.

OK now your just being an idiot. Get a life.... Really. Like CO doesn't have "past beahavior." You must stock one hell of a lot of windex for that glass house of yours.

 

[Andy]

I read the TPA. It only exists in the form it does because UAL was in the shape it was in.

I don't remember there being a TPA discussed between UAL and USAir back in the day... Or America West. Certainly wasn't one with Frontier. If I remember correctly, RD made it clear USAir was a "purchase", America West was going to be "dismantled", and of course we all know what you did to Frontier. Let's not forget the "brain surgeon" comment back in the day.

Look guys, I'm not hinting that we are due the equal opposite of what you guys did to past airlines. I'm just saying you should not get a pass on your past behavior.

Nice spin - I assume that's a feeble attempt to deflect attention from your misstatement that LUAL would not hire LCAL furloughees. Here's section 7-B for those that don't have access to the TPA:

7-B. Job Opportunities.​

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]

(i) If either Continental or United intends to hire new Pilots, it will first offer employment to fill such positions in seniority order to Pilots on furlough from the other Airline. Acceptance or rejection of such an offer or failure to qualify will not affect a Pilot’s recall rights or placement on the Integrated Seniority List (which shall be based upon his seniority position at the Pilot’s originating Airline). A Pilot accepting an offer under this provision will be subject to the normal background and employment requirements of the employing Airline. The Pilot will be an employee of the employing Airline, within the applicable ALPA council for that Airline, but will not be required to serve or complete a probation period. Such Pilot will be paid the greater of (1) the actual hourly pay rate he was receiving on the date of his furlough, or (2) the hourly pay rate to which his years of service at the employing Airline otherwise entitles.
(ii) No Pilot shall be entitled to more than two (2) offers of employment pursuant to this Section 7-B. If a Pilot declines the first offer, the employing Airline will not contact him for a second offer until he provides at least thirty (30) days notice​

[/FONT][/FONT]11 TENTATIVE AGREEMENT TRANSITION AND PROCESS LOA [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]7/19/10

to the employing Airline in writing of his desire to re-enter the hiring process. At that time he will be eligible for the next available offer in seniority order.
(iii) Pilots employed pursuant to this Section 7-B will exercise seniority for all purposes at the employing Airline in the seniority order of their originating Airline but junior to all Pilots who were on the seniority list of the employing Airline prior to the Merger Agreement Date. Upon implementation of the ISL Pilots will exercise seniority pursuant to their position on the ISL. All Pilots hired by the employing Airline after the Merger Agreement Date who are not Pilots employed pursuant to this Section 7-B will exercise their seniority for all purposes junior to all Pilots who were on either seniority list prior to the Merger Agreement Date.​

(iv) Notwithstanding Section 27, Part 2.A.2, B.2 or C.2 of the Continental CBA, all Pilots on either the United Pilots’ or Continental Pilots’ Seniority List as of the Effective Date of this Agreement employed by Continental shall be eligible for Medical, Dental and Vision Plan coverage on the Pilot’s first day of Active Service.
[/FONT][/FONT]

So anyone who is able to read can clearly see that Flop's statement about LCAL furloughees not being offered jobs at LUAL is not only wrong but completely in left field.
Flop, you are now acting as a management tool. One whose goal is to divide labor with the misguided belief that management will reward you at the expense of LUAL pilots. Jeff loves pilots like you.

As for your off topic commentary about other attempted mergers, they're irrelevent. I view that as an attempt to deflect the topic away from your blatant misstatement about LCAL furloughees being hired at LUAL. Focus. Jeff likes employees that are easily distracted by immaterial diversions.
Jeff likes Flopgut. A lot.

Stop being a management tool.

 

[Flopgut]

OK now your just being an idiot. Get a life.... Really. Like CO doesn't have "past beahavior." You must stock one hell of a lot of windex for that glass house of yours.

I didn't say we didn't! I'm just not going to go along with you guys staring down your nose at all of us.

I've flown with 83 Lorenso hires. I've also flown with the strike coordinator for TI, who went to IAD to picket Lorenzo's New York Air. He asked UAL guys if they would walk the line with him and your strike chair said "We're United Airlines, we don't give a damn about your pissant Texas airline"...

Are we all going to pretend you [L-UAL] were not the uber arrogant pilot group you once were?

 

[Flopgut]

Andy: I promise jeff doesn't like me, or any CAL pilot really for that matter. We win arbitrations, avoid getting pinched by judges, don't vote 86%+ in favor of pay cuts, and we dont sacrafice scope for retirement...

 

[eaglesview]

I didn't say we didn't! I'm just not going to go along with you guys staring down your nose at all of us.

I've flown with 83 Lorenso hires. I've also flown with the strike coordinator for TI, who went to IAD to picket Lorenzo's New York Air. He asked UAL guys if they would walk the line with him and your strike chair said "We're United Airlines, we don't give a damn about your pissant Texas airline"...

Are we all going to pretend you [L-UAL] were not the uber arrogant pilot group you once were?

Once were? There you said it. Get over the past and point forward. I had CO pilots walk right by me while picketing during the EAL, look me in the eye, and tell me "it's not their fight." Do I think that's the majority of CO pilots ...NO. Get over yourself and move forward.

 

[Flopgut]

Once were? There you said it. Get over the past and point forward. I had CO pilots walk right by me while picketing during the EAL, look me in the eye, and tell me "it's not their fight." Do I think that's the majority of CO pilots ...NO. Get over yourself and move forward.

All right. You're right about this. Meaningless. My bad.

 

[Skippy]

The stereotypes of both pilot groups is getting tired. We need to put our effort toward the items that matter for the betterment of the entire pilot group, not making one group massively benefit at the expense of another.

 

[Paul R. Smith]

I usually check out an FI thread by reading the OP, then skip to the last page and see how everything turned out. It's funny how off-topic we can get and how quickly as well.

I love lamp.

 

[Crucianpilot]

The stereotypes of both pilot groups is getting tired. We need to put our effort toward the items that matter for the betterment of the entire pilot group, not making one group massively benefit at the expense of another.

I agree. We need to work together not against each other. The enemy is management. They love to see this type of angst and hatred between the two groups as it helps them achieve their objectives. We need to focus on achieving an industry leading contract so we can become the type of company we deserve to be.

 

[Andy]

Are we all going to pretend you [L-UAL] were not the uber arrogant pilot group you once were?

Past tense. Continental pilots were arrogant during the days of Bob Six when Continental was THE airline to fly for. Continental fell quite a bit in the next couple of decades and I don't think that the pilots are arrogant anymore.
That said, United's pilots used to be arrogant. The last decade has placed most arrogance in check - save for a brit who cheers for Man U. There are probably a few more than that. But I'm sure if I dig through Continental's seniority list, I'll find the same.

Like it or not, Continental's pilot group has its own shortcomings; your comments about United pilots is akin to the pot calling the kettle black.


Now here's the bottom line. You, I and every Continental and United pilot will fly on a single seniority list one day in the not too distant future. Infighting over petty immaterial issues only hurts us as a group. It's especially troubling when someone makes an unprovable claim about the other group. Stop it.

 

[xjhawk]

Past tense. Continental pilots were arrogant during the days of Bob Six when Continental was THE airline to fly for. Continental fell quite a bit in the next couple of decades and I don't think that the pilots are arrogant anymore.
That said, United's pilots used to be arrogant. The last decade has placed most arrogance in check - save for a brit who cheers for Man U. There are probably a few more than that. But I'm sure if I dig through Continental's seniority list, I'll find the same.

Like it or not, Continental's pilot group has its own shortcomings; your comments about United pilots is akin to the pot calling the kettle black.


Now here's the bottom line. You, I and every Continental and United pilot will fly on a single seniority list one day in the not too distant future. Infighting over petty immaterial issues only hurts us as a group. It's especially troubling when someone makes an unprovable claim about the other group. Stop it.

More of this and this will be THE place to work. When are you guys hiring again?

 

[Andy]

More of this and this will be THE place to work. When are you guys hiring again?

I would anticipate interviews within the next couple of months. L-CAL has gone through the entire L-UAL seniority list.
There's some question as to whether or not L-UAL will be recalling. Unless they plan on parking a significant number of aircraft on the L-UAL side next year, they will need to start recalling very soon .. as in they're already behind the power curve.

My guess is that once the pilot contract is settled, they will be running both IAH and DEN training centers at full capacity and outsourcing some simulator time. We had the head of combined LCAL/LUAL training speak to our class a few months ago when I went through training and he discussed the fact that they were looking as far as Eastern Europe and Turkey for available simulator time.

 

[xjhawk]

wow, eastern Europe and Turkey? That is some serious planning.

 

[Andy]

wow, eastern Europe and Turkey? That is some serious planning.

The combined LUAL and LCAL will have more than 400 retirements/yr. They will need a massive training pipeline to accomodate that many retirements. It will likely take a couple of years just to expand training enough to have the correct sized training pipeline.

 

[CorpPilot]

Something I heard around sim building. United side 1300 fat on pilots based on CAL staffing theory. Hiring will depend on new contract staffing verbiage. And don't forget, CAL manpower planning took over, plan on short staffing for the next few years at least.

 

[100/hour/5y]

Andy: I promise jeff doesn't like me, or any CAL pilot really for that matter. We win arbitrations, avoid getting pinched by judges, don't vote 86%+ in favor of pay cuts, and we dont sacrafice scope for retirement...

NO...He loves the CAL pilots because they voted yes to a TA in bullet points with sections in the TA completely blank!

Wake up... I trust the UA guys more then the CAL guys with my future TA!

 

[Andy]

Something I heard around sim building. United side 1300 fat on pilots based on CAL staffing theory. Hiring will depend on new contract staffing verbiage. And don't forget, CAL manpower planning took over, plan on short staffing for the next few years at least.

1) The new FARs ensure that LCAL's current staffing model is dead.
LCAL's staffing model is to work their crewmembers to death. It makes for a great retirement plan because LCAL pilots don't need much retirement planning- the current work rules shave many years off of their lives.

2) Does anyone in their right mind think that LCAL work rules could pass the combined LUAL and LCAL membership??? NFW.
I expect slightly better than current LUAL work rules.


There are regional airlines with better work rules than the current ones at LCAL. We're the world's #1 airline; let's act like it and not accept work rules that push the FAR limits. ... I can't believe how LCAL has been getting away with rolling pilots by flying them for 6 days, parking them offshore for a hair more than 24 hrs, and then flying them for another 6 days. That's total BS.

And so much of LCAL's staffing issues are self-inflicted. A reserve pilot gets assigned a multiday trip, and then scheduling adds a reserve block on the front end that takes them to >14 hr duty day for day 1. If there are any delays on the first day, the reserve Whitlows out. Trying to protect the front end of a day's schedule while sacrificing the back end is stoopid, especially since reserves with trips rarely get reassigned to earlier trips. However, plenty end up hitting the 16 hr duty day limit.