Some Delta/NWA route swaps......

[Fly4hire]

You guys never have been rational in any way shape or form. Don't know why you'd start now.

Please answer the question of why DALPA is siding with management to not fight for the contractual rights of DAL pilots?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Scope out RJ's This message is hidden because Scope out RJ's is on your ignore list.

I don't have a clue what you wrote, but I'm sure it's positive and filled with important information.

Yet you still can't fight the urge to respond. Most mindless trolls would act that way! Thanks for proving my point junior!

I think of your posts like I think of the Germans. I have not been impressed with what I've seen in the past and I don't look forward to what comes next.

Too bad you have to have a brain to think. Better luck next time! :laugh:
I'll stand by for your next ignore reply!

 

[Superpilot92]

According to your management. Our attorneys and contract folks see it differently.

It does not cost FDAL pilots a dime, and will require more pilots for all of us sooner than later - so why are you opposing it? I understand management fighting it but not DALPA....

Ding ding ding we have a winner! No one wants to answer that question. The sooner the contract is in place and honored on our side the better it is for all delta pilots.

 

[Superpilot92]

Please answer the question of why DALPA is siding with management to not fight for the contractual rights of DAL pilots?

*Crickets*

 

[Fly4hire]

Ding ding ding we have a winner! No one wants to answer that question. The sooner the contract is in place and honored on our side the better it is for all delta pilots.

Maybe they don't want to see us get upgrades or expand with the increased staffing?

The irony is it has to take place before SOC regardless, and if we don't see it with the trip-rig we may see it with increased flying on our side at the expense of junior FDAL positions. Even if they can't stand the thought of us expanding, it still helps them in both the short and long term.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I am glad to see you expand. Like I said if there is a way, the company will find it. I find it funny that if what many assume is happening happens, we are being whipsawed against each other.

Fact is that with where each pre merger carrier's focus was, it makes sense to expand the NWA side of things. When it makes sense to expand the international we will be all one company.
Even though I say this, watch for a game changer in the first quarter in regards to the Pre merger DAL side.
If the lending rates retreat from the 10.5% of today to where they were four months ago (5-6%) you will see us add a lot of narrow body lift. Right now it makes sense to fly what you own (DC-9)

 

[jetjockey#1]

Please answer the question of why DALPA is siding with management to not fight for the contractual rights of DAL pilots?

Not flame just a question: Doesn't NWA have their own union? I would think NWA ALPA would have to be raising hell about your issues not DALPA. Who are you paying your dues to: DALPA or NWA ALPA. Those are the folks you need to be attacking.

I would personally be unhappy if DALPA is using my dues to fight for NWA issues, once again not flamebait, just the facts. Now, if you feel NWA ALPA is so incompetent or unwilling to fight for your rights, that's a different story.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

It will be the same union in a few weeks

 

[Fly4hire]

Not flame just a question: Doesn't NWA have their own union? I would think NWA ALPA would have to be raising hell about your issues not DALPA. Who are you paying your dues to: DALPA or NWA ALPA. Those are the folks you need to be attacking.

We have to go through DALPA to DAL management until we have a combined MEC Jan 17. To date DALPA is siding with DAL management against the NWA trip-rig interpretation.

 

[FBN0223]

We have to go through DALPA to DAL management until we have a combined MEC Jan 17. To date DALPA is siding with DAL management against the NWA trip-rig interpretation.

Someone explain that one!!!! Parity is not just compensation rates/hr, but the whole ball of wax. We'd be hiring right now if the "trip-rig portion" of the JCBA was honored on the NWA side because they'd be short staffed. I realize that a grievance was filed but I am still at a loss on why portions of the contract are honored and others are not.

Ready to be enlightened. FBN

 

[jetjockey#1]

We have to go through DALPA to DAL management until we have a combined MEC Jan 17. To date DALPA is siding with DAL management against the NWA trip-rig interpretation.

That sucks for you guys. I still don't understand why NWA ALPA is nowhere in the picture. DALPA, mainly Moak, is definitely too close to management, hopefully not for long. He should be gone in the very near future.

 

[jetjockey#1]

It will be the same union in a few weeks

A few weeks? Boy! aren't you full of good news!

Anyway, I thought if they have a grievance it would make sense to have their own union, right now on their property, grieve it on their behalf. I guess I was wrong.

 

[nwaf16dude]

That sucks for you guys. I still don't understand why NWA ALPA is nowhere in the picture. DALPA, mainly Moak, is definitely too close to management, hopefully not for long. He should be gone in the very near future.

Sucks for us? Yeah, but open your eyes a bit and you will realize it sucks for you as well. The trip rig issue is a clear incentive for DAL management to move flying to the NWA side and continue to pit us against each other. That is not good for either side.

 

[Fly4hire]

That sucks for you guys. I still don't understand why NWA ALPA is nowhere in the picture. DALPA, mainly Moak, is definitely too close to management, hopefully not for long. He should be gone in the very near future.

RTFQ there Son. DALPA is working to *prevent* NWALPA from getting the contractual trip-rig.

We have a contract, signed and sealed, Mother DAL is making an argument over implementation based on interpretations, and DALPA, who will shortly represent both groups, is siding with management *against* NWALPA over contract compliance.

The displacement AE you are seeing IS related to this trip-rig disparity - your over staffing issue on certain aircraft didn't become manifest until FN came into the picture with a lower unit cost operation, courtesy of your MEC.


Sucks for you. Looks like the staffing we would not see in trip-rig is about to be more than offset by increased flying to FN as they right size gauge. It would have been a lot more cost prohibitve to do this if the trip-rig was in place.

 

[FBN0223]

Sucks for us? Yeah, but open your eyes a bit and you will realize it sucks for you as well. The trip rig issue is a clear incentive for DAL management to move flying to the NWA side and continue to pit us against each other.

And avoid hiring on the NWA side. I would really like to know why Delta has decided to not honor the contract in which they agreed and why DALPA/NWALPA allows this to continue.

Does anyone have more insight? Like I said, I know a grievance was filed but why would it have to even come to that?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Isn't this stuff all tied into "bid period 5?"

 

[FBN0223]

Isn't this stuff all tied into "bid period 5?"

Ok, when is that?

 

[FDJ2]

Lot's of generalities, few specifics about what language is not being honored and of course a generous dose of accusations and half truths.

How about looking at the contract? What does it say? There are plenty of sections, and paragraphs to look at. Is anyone claiming that we are at Bid Period 5? Here's some contract language. Discuss.




"The staffing formula for former NWA categories must be in compliance with the PBS Staffing formula not later than the 24th bid period following Bid Period 5 and no premium pay adjustment (value H in the PBS Staffing Formula) will be applied until such bid period."

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Bid period 5 is after an unspecified point in time.

Reminds me of the Guiness commercials.... "BRILLIANT!"

 

[FBN0223]

How about looking at the contract? What does it say? There are plenty of sections, and paragraphs to look at. Is anyone claiming that we are at Bid Period 5? Here's some contract language. Discuss.


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Are you referring to Sections 12 H., I., K, L? Yeah, I have read it. I have also read the grievance filed by NWALPA because Delta management has failed to implement certain sections of the CBA that involve credit provisions. These include rotation credit, duty period minimum day, and duty period credit.

Shall I be more specific?

 

[FDJ2]

Shall I be more specific?

Yes, be more specific.

 

[NuGuy]

Yes, be more specific.

Heyas FDJ,

I'm sure your fellow committee members have a copy of the grievance. Just ask them. It has all the specifics.

Nu

 

[jetjockey#1]

RTFQ there Son. DALPA is working to *prevent* NWALPA from getting the contractual trip-rig.

We have a contract, signed and sealed, Mother DAL is making an argument over implementation based on interpretations, and DALPA, who will shortly represent both groups, is siding with management *against* NWALPA over contract compliance.

The displacement AE you are seeing IS related to this trip-rig disparity - your over staffing issue on certain aircraft didn't become manifest until FN came into the picture with a lower unit cost operation, courtesy of your MEC.


Sucks for you. Looks like the staffing we would not see in trip-rig is about to be more than offset by increased flying to FN as they right size gauge. It would have been a lot more cost prohibitve to do this if the trip-rig was in place.

Firs of all, I am not your son, and you are not my mom. Second of all, I was referring to the fact that you expect DALPA to spend DAL pilot's dues on issues at NWA. I understand the implications affecting us. Third of all, the only reason we are displacing is because we merged with NWA. If not, we would be hiring.
So, I recomend you to go to NWALPA and ask them to spend whatever dues are necessary to have your grievance settle.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

What we might have done as separate companies is of no relevance. Stating what might have happened only makes you miserable. What is happening is what matters. We are displacing 239 pilots at DAL downward. I am sure that some of the NWA folks that get displaced to the 9 are not going to be happy either.
Of course there will be more NWA folks getting upgrades and moveing to larger equipment in the near term. If you did not think about that when you voted for the JPWA you were kidding yourself.
Point is, deal with what is in front of you not what is behind you, nor what could have been. Doing such makes for a miserable existance.

 

[propdog]

Third of all, the only reason we are displacing is because we merged with NWA. If not, we would be hiring.

Well, it is your wonderful management who had this great idea of a merger. Not the NWA pilot group. So put the blame where it belongs....or better still... stop griping and deal with it.

 

[nwaf16dude]

I think the former NWA guys would accept that it will take a reasonable amount of time to implement the trip/duty rigs if we could just get a definition of "a reasonable amount of time" written down somewhere. This nebulous Bid Period 5 moving target is the problem. I would think that DAL guys would be interested in making that happen as well.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I agree!

All of a sudden parts of the puzzle are not fitting. It would be nice to know the "rest of the story." The unsubstantiated rumors are interesting:

1. Being done to dump the NWA poolies instead of hire them
2. Being done to whipsaw Delta pilots with cheaper NWA labor for a short term gain
3. Or, management scared witless about the economy and doing everything possible to reduce short term expenditures

Theory 3 seems to fit the best, seeing as how we are parking the most efficient jet on the planet and backfilling with RJ's, MD88's and DC9's to avoid the expense of major maintenance.

DALPA seems to resonate with the Company's economic concerns, both with opportunities and threats. Just my guess.

 

[FDJ2]

Heyas FDJ,

I'm sure your fellow committee members have a copy of the grievance. Just ask them. It has all the specifics.

Nu

Well, if the grievance is supported by facts, logic and reason you'll have no problem.

No idea why you're so desparate to get to our inferior work rules, at least you characterized them as inferior during the SLI arbitration.

"I know you Delta guys are hardover on the whole W2 issue, but at NWA, work rules matter, too. Alot of what you guys are claiming as an improvement, really isn't."

Now that the SLI is over, the truth comes out. The pay is better and the work rules and trip rigs.

Interesting that you had a fairly good idea about how this was suppose to work back in November, but not now. Emphasis added.


"Heyas,

DAL calls their bid months "bid periods". "Bid period 5" is that bid month that happens after bid periods 1-4 during the transition from NWA rules to the new JPWA.

I realize that sounds like an assinine answer, but it's important to the rest of the process. It is during bid period 5 that a LOT of changes happen for NWA guys.

The transition working group (TWG) is a group made up of NWA guys, DAL guys, NWA maganement and DAL management. Their goal is to transition pilots from the NWA CBA to the new joint CBA. This isn't something you do overnight, so there is a plan to transition from one to the other, and it is done over the course of 5 bid months. It just so happens that all of the big changes, and the final transition happens in the last month, or bid period 5.

This will be done on a fleet by fleet basis, so "bid period 5" will happen at different times for different fleets. It happens 5 months AFTER the TWG designates the fleet as starting the transition (or bid period 1). WHEN it happens is up to the TWG, and so far NO fleets have started the transition."

 

[FBN0223]

I think the former NWA guys would accept that it will take a reasonable amount of time to implement the trip/duty rigs if we could just get a definition of "a reasonable amount of time" written down somewhere. This nebulous Bid Period 5 moving target is the problem. I would think that DAL guys would be interested in making that happen as well.

Exactly!!!

 

[PuffDriver]

Well, if the grievance is supported by facts, logic and reason you'll have no problem.

No idea why you're so desparate to get to our inferior work rules, at least you characterized them as inferior during the SLI arbitration.

"I know you Delta guys are hardover on the whole W2 issue, but at NWA, work rules matter, too. Alot of what you guys are claiming as an improvement, really isn't."

Now that the SLI is over, the truth comes out. The pay is better and the work rules and trip rigs.

Interesting that you had a fairly good idea about how this was suppose to work back in November, but not now. Emphasis added.


"Heyas,

DAL calls their bid months "bid periods". "Bid period 5" is that bid month that happens after bid periods 1-4 during the transition from NWA rules to the new JPWA.

I realize that sounds like an assinine answer, but it's important to the rest of the process. It is during bid period 5 that a LOT of changes happen for NWA guys.

The transition working group (TWG) is a group made up of NWA guys, DAL guys, NWA maganement and DAL management. Their goal is to transition pilots from the NWA CBA to the new joint CBA. This isn't something you do overnight, so there is a plan to transition from one to the other, and it is done over the course of 5 bid months. It just so happens that all of the big changes, and the final transition happens in the last month, or bid period 5.

This will be done on a fleet by fleet basis, so "bid period 5" will happen at different times for different fleets. It happens 5 months AFTER the TWG designates the fleet as starting the transition (or bid period 1). WHEN it happens is up to the TWG, and so far NO fleets have started the transition."

Concisely stated, and correctly. All the whining. bitching, and moaning will not change it. BTW, you also forgot to quote the best of all: "Seniority is forever."