So where does the next generation come from???

[Flightdawg]

FWIW, I support no age limit as well. But if we are to do that I believe we should abandon the seniority principle as well. Start command evaluation at 5 to 10 years and go with rostering and assignments.

You're talking about dumping the unions. I was raised on the merit system for a couple of decades before becoming a union pilot in my mid-thirties. While there are pros and cons to both, I think the safety side of the equation means we need a union. It's the main reason ALPA was formed in the first place and why many airlines eventually unionize. The unions don't have to be antagonistic such as SWAPA, but it does mean the company has to respect the pilot group's concerns when it comes to flying aircraft in all types of environmental and mechanical conditions.

As for Prater, all those political cats mystify me. It's a matter of taking the good with the bad. He's doing a job I would never want to do and he seems to be doing okay with it. Not perfect, but not as badly as Duane, so that's a plus for me.

 

[snozberry]

Experience and Date of Hire are directly related. No rookies here at USAir (the real one, before we merged with the Mesa of the majors.

St. Nic:
Here's 3 of the NTSB findings to factors that led to the USAir crash of flight 1016 killing 37 people outside of Charlotte:

1. The flight crew's decision to continue the approach in a severe thunderstorm
2. The failure of the flight crew to recognize wind shear quickly
3. The failure of the flight crew to establish proper control and engine power that would have brought them out of the wind shear.

I'm sure they both had ATP's

 

[snozberry]

414Flyer,
Yes I did do the freight dawgin before I went to a regional. I couldn't agree more with you. The experience I got out of that was definitely invaluable. But my point is, how many freight dawgs do you here crashing? I'm not saying it doesn't happen. But I don't think the ATP requirement is the answer. I've flown with many people with less then 1500 hours and they were great. I've also flown with people who have over 10,000 hours that I'm waiting to see in the news. And the union will save their job no matter what they do. The collision in Tenerife killed 583 people. It was caused by a Senior Check Airman with well over ATP minimums. Junior pilots are not the only ones causing accidents. The NW flight and the DL flight (both had pilots with thousands of hours) could've ended very differently due to their mistakes. Fortunately, they didn't. But their outcomes had nothing to do with their skill, it was luck.

 

[waveflyer]

Exactly. We're missing the boat if we focus on flight time. It's quality of training and experience that matters. And our academics in this industry are a joke. Make it harder to get a license and you'll see that those capable of passing a rigorous process won't do it for peanuts. We should adopt JAA academic standards immediately- get rid of the idiot rif-raf in this industry.

 

[Bringupthebird]

How many industries use artificial constructs like straw-man regulations to prop up pay rates? Greed works every time and is self-sustaining.

 

[Flopgut]

You're talking about dumping the unions. I was raised on the merit system for a couple of decades before becoming a union pilot in my mid-thirties. While there are pros and cons to both, I think the safety side of the equation means we need a union. It's the main reason ALPA was formed in the first place and why many airlines eventually unionize. The unions don't have to be antagonistic such as SWAPA, but it does mean the company has to respect the pilot group's concerns when it comes to flying aircraft in all types of environmental and mechanical conditions.

As for Prater, all those political cats mystify me. It's a matter of taking the good with the bad. He's doing a job I would never want to do and he seems to be doing okay with it. Not perfect, but not as badly as Duane, so that's a plus for me.

I see you viewpoint and mostly agree. I'm not sure merit would be the best either, but I'm watching my airline change post new retirement age and it's not for the better. More of the good ones retire than the not so good. It's growing to look like the FA group. Some merit component would have to exist in a no age limit scenario.

Duane didn't lose two pilot groups' dues revenue out of the pot by messing with arbitration. I talk about retirement age a great deal, but that screw up on John's part was monumental.

 

[Flopgut]

Prater handed the USAirways pilot group to USAPA on a golden platter. If he stayed on as Pres after that, there's not much that can get him dismissed.

Very true.

I have always supported repealing Age 60 on principal, but only for folks who are still capable of doing the job. If you can't fly at 61, or 51 or 41, you should be given a chance to make up for that one bad day, but you shouldn't be allowed to coast along, enabled by programs like AQP.

The standards are tough enough, but the laxity to which some of the subjective standards are enforced is the issue.

That last sentence is especially good. And that is something that will absolutely have to be addressed if/when another attempt is made to increase the retirement age. If it had been part of the equation in changing 60 to 65 I believe Prater would have thought twice.

 

[Flightdawg]

Duane didn't lose two pilot groups' dues revenue out of the pot by messing with arbitration. I talk about retirement age a great deal, but that screw up on John's part was monumental.

If you want to put that on Prater, that's your choice, but I disagree.

IMHO, if there is blame to be laid, then I fault Prater, newly elected into office at the time, with not cracking down hard enough on the actions of the USAPA members operating under an ALPA flag. ALPA National has limited authority over an MEC, but they definitely have a strong say on who is a member. While the senior members of USAIR MEC may have still chosen to leave ALPA, at least Prater could have shut down those who were using ALPA funds to start their own union.

On a side note; I think it is funny to hear some of the same guys in the crew room who bitch about ALPA and how we need our own "regional" union then talk about a National seniority list. Go figure.

 

[wlacy]

Somebody told me prater is a trophy husband, living off his wife's salary. She is an anesthesiologist on the west coast. Ya buddy! I'm gonna be a trophy husband someday!

 

[AceCrackshot]

Really, who gives a damn?