So where does the next generation come from???

[atpcliff]

Hi!

India is importing expat pilots, because they don't have anywhere near enough native pilots, and this is now, during this global recession. When things pick up again, they will be importing many, many more pilots. Same goes for China, Vietnam, Middle East, Japan, etc., etc.

The House wants an ATP, NOT 1500 hours.

The female FO at Colgan had over 1500 hours, but that was at the time of the accident. She did NOT have an ATP/1500 hours when hired, and if she did, she would have had about 3000 at the time of the accident, and probably would have prevented it (or she would not have gotten the ATP and been hired in the first place). She was inexperienced...said her 1st flight ever in icing.

cliff
NBO

 

[Bringupthebird]

Why not require check airmen (with stringent minimum requirements) to occupy the jumpseat for all crews with any pilot under 1500 hours? At least somebody would be up there to say, "What the heck are you doing?"

 

[St. Nic]

Why not require check airmen (with stringent minimum requirements) to occupy the jumpseat for all crews with any pilot under 1500 hours? At least somebody would be up there to say, "What the heck are you doing?"

Experience and Date of Hire are directly related. No rookies here at USAir (the real one, before we merged with the Mesa of the majors.

 

[Bringupthebird]

So far, John has ducked this critique but I think we´ll bring him around. Or he won´t be running ALPA much longer.

Prater handed the USAirways pilot group to USAPA on a golden platter. If he stayed on as Pres after that, there's not much that can get him dismissed.

I have always supported repealing Age 60 on principal, but only for folks who are still capable of doing the job. If you can't fly at 61, or 51 or 41, you should be given a chance to make up for that one bad day, but you shouldn't be allowed to coast along, enabled by programs like AQP.

The standards are tough enough, but the laxity to which some of the subjective standards are enforced is the issue.

In summary, no pilot should be forced to retire because he has turned a particular age, but no pilot should be allowed to continue flying past their ability to do so safely.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Experience and Date of Hire are directly related. No rookies here at USAir (the real one, before we merged with the Mesa of the majors.

You take the Joe Patroni character in Airport WAAAYYY to seriously.

And if you really worked at ANY airline you would know how ridiculous your statement is. Thanks for the humor, we need more of it!

 

[St. Nic]

Not any disrespect intended, but I have worked for over20 years at a real legacy. Care to share with us where you work? (you brought it up)

 

[popgoesbubble]

Are you guys Kidding Me?? Haven't you all noticed that Instructordude hasn't been around for awhile. Rumor has it on one of those Above top secret blogs that the government has taken him to a secret location deep inside Area 51 where they are cloning him not only to be the answers to all our prayers as commercial pilots but also to save & defend our country by being the only one allowed to fly for our military. All of us can sleep better now knowing nothing is gonna happen on Instructordude's watch. Also I can't confirm it but apparently Instructordude's only form of compensation was that he be anal probed by every alien race that is living at area 51 as apparently the cloning process is a In & Out same day procedure and its been awhile since we last heard from him.

 

[thruthemurk]

Experience and Date of Hire are directly related. No rookies here at USAir (the real one, before we merged with the Mesa of the majors.

Is that the experience that led to 5 crashes in 5 years in the 90's?

 

[414Flyer]

India

India does not have an excess of pilots, that are looking to take jobs all around the world. Actually its American pilots who have been going to India for jobs.

I think this fear of foreign pilots filling jobs here is misplaced. The biggest threat to pay and lifestyle here is not pilots from other countries, its pilots in our own country who do quite enough on their own. From pilots here thinking they should PFT or work for dirtbag companies and wages, to pilots accepting airline pay that is probably less than a McDonalds shift manager, to Major airline pilots who had too much pride to fly jets deemed too small, pilots here have done quite enough to damage the profession here. much more so than some mythical problem of foreign pilots coming here to take jobs, which is a convienient, but non-existent, scapegoat.

Indians would have much more of a realistic fear of American pilots going over there and taking jobs from them.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Not any disrespect intended, but I have worked for over20 years at a real legacy. Care to share with us where you work? (you brought it up)

If it's the legacy I'm thinking of, you need worry less about disrespect and more about self-respect.

Take the night off and eat a good union turkey.

 

[Flightdawg]

FWIW, I support no age limit as well. But if we are to do that I believe we should abandon the seniority principle as well. Start command evaluation at 5 to 10 years and go with rostering and assignments.

You're talking about dumping the unions. I was raised on the merit system for a couple of decades before becoming a union pilot in my mid-thirties. While there are pros and cons to both, I think the safety side of the equation means we need a union. It's the main reason ALPA was formed in the first place and why many airlines eventually unionize. The unions don't have to be antagonistic such as SWAPA, but it does mean the company has to respect the pilot group's concerns when it comes to flying aircraft in all types of environmental and mechanical conditions.

As for Prater, all those political cats mystify me. It's a matter of taking the good with the bad. He's doing a job I would never want to do and he seems to be doing okay with it. Not perfect, but not as badly as Duane, so that's a plus for me.

 

[snozberry]

Experience and Date of Hire are directly related. No rookies here at USAir (the real one, before we merged with the Mesa of the majors.

St. Nic:
Here's 3 of the NTSB findings to factors that led to the USAir crash of flight 1016 killing 37 people outside of Charlotte:

1. The flight crew's decision to continue the approach in a severe thunderstorm
2. The failure of the flight crew to recognize wind shear quickly
3. The failure of the flight crew to establish proper control and engine power that would have brought them out of the wind shear.

I'm sure they both had ATP's

 

[snozberry]

414Flyer,
Yes I did do the freight dawgin before I went to a regional. I couldn't agree more with you. The experience I got out of that was definitely invaluable. But my point is, how many freight dawgs do you here crashing? I'm not saying it doesn't happen. But I don't think the ATP requirement is the answer. I've flown with many people with less then 1500 hours and they were great. I've also flown with people who have over 10,000 hours that I'm waiting to see in the news. And the union will save their job no matter what they do. The collision in Tenerife killed 583 people. It was caused by a Senior Check Airman with well over ATP minimums. Junior pilots are not the only ones causing accidents. The NW flight and the DL flight (both had pilots with thousands of hours) could've ended very differently due to their mistakes. Fortunately, they didn't. But their outcomes had nothing to do with their skill, it was luck.

 

[waveflyer]

Exactly. We're missing the boat if we focus on flight time. It's quality of training and experience that matters. And our academics in this industry are a joke. Make it harder to get a license and you'll see that those capable of passing a rigorous process won't do it for peanuts. We should adopt JAA academic standards immediately- get rid of the idiot rif-raf in this industry.

 

[Bringupthebird]

How many industries use artificial constructs like straw-man regulations to prop up pay rates? Greed works every time and is self-sustaining.

 

[Flopgut]

You're talking about dumping the unions. I was raised on the merit system for a couple of decades before becoming a union pilot in my mid-thirties. While there are pros and cons to both, I think the safety side of the equation means we need a union. It's the main reason ALPA was formed in the first place and why many airlines eventually unionize. The unions don't have to be antagonistic such as SWAPA, but it does mean the company has to respect the pilot group's concerns when it comes to flying aircraft in all types of environmental and mechanical conditions.

As for Prater, all those political cats mystify me. It's a matter of taking the good with the bad. He's doing a job I would never want to do and he seems to be doing okay with it. Not perfect, but not as badly as Duane, so that's a plus for me.

I see you viewpoint and mostly agree. I'm not sure merit would be the best either, but I'm watching my airline change post new retirement age and it's not for the better. More of the good ones retire than the not so good. It's growing to look like the FA group. Some merit component would have to exist in a no age limit scenario.

Duane didn't lose two pilot groups' dues revenue out of the pot by messing with arbitration. I talk about retirement age a great deal, but that screw up on John's part was monumental.

 

[Flopgut]

Prater handed the USAirways pilot group to USAPA on a golden platter. If he stayed on as Pres after that, there's not much that can get him dismissed.

Very true.

I have always supported repealing Age 60 on principal, but only for folks who are still capable of doing the job. If you can't fly at 61, or 51 or 41, you should be given a chance to make up for that one bad day, but you shouldn't be allowed to coast along, enabled by programs like AQP.

The standards are tough enough, but the laxity to which some of the subjective standards are enforced is the issue.

That last sentence is especially good. And that is something that will absolutely have to be addressed if/when another attempt is made to increase the retirement age. If it had been part of the equation in changing 60 to 65 I believe Prater would have thought twice.

 

[Flightdawg]

Duane didn't lose two pilot groups' dues revenue out of the pot by messing with arbitration. I talk about retirement age a great deal, but that screw up on John's part was monumental.

If you want to put that on Prater, that's your choice, but I disagree.

IMHO, if there is blame to be laid, then I fault Prater, newly elected into office at the time, with not cracking down hard enough on the actions of the USAPA members operating under an ALPA flag. ALPA National has limited authority over an MEC, but they definitely have a strong say on who is a member. While the senior members of USAIR MEC may have still chosen to leave ALPA, at least Prater could have shut down those who were using ALPA funds to start their own union.

On a side note; I think it is funny to hear some of the same guys in the crew room who bitch about ALPA and how we need our own "regional" union then talk about a National seniority list. Go figure.

 

[wlacy]

Somebody told me prater is a trophy husband, living off his wife's salary. She is an anesthesiologist on the west coast. Ya buddy! I'm gonna be a trophy husband someday!

 

[AceCrackshot]

Really, who gives a damn?