So where does the next generation come from???

[FLYLOW22]

I couldn't afford to go back to my carrier making less money than before my 6 year furlough.

Gotta thank Wolf, Seigel, Lakefield, Parker and Nicolau for making that choice the easiest one I have ever made.

 

[DH106]

The Democratic Party gave the UAW Chrysler and GM. How's that workin' out for them?

Bringupthebird, what you say may be true to an extent. But, GM and Chrysler failed not because of the unions. They ultimately failed due to bad management. Let's remember that those high-powered MBA's are the executives of the corporations... not labor. The buck stops with management.

 

[Flopgut]

Bringupthebird, what you say may be true to an extent. But, GM and Chrysler failed not because of the unions. They ultimately failed due to bad management. Let's remember that those high-powered MBA's are the executives of the corporations... not labor. The buck stops with management.

Amen. 2008, I believe, was the largest number of top safety pics ever handed out. Chrysler failed to put one madel of the list. That's mgt's fault.

 

[DH106]

Amen. 2008, I believe, was the largest number of top safety pics ever handed out. Chrysler failed to put one madel of the list. That's mgt's fault.

Sorry, I don't understand... what do you mean by pics (short for "pictures")? What's a madel? Not trying to be a smarta$$; I just don't understand what you're talking about.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The single biggest reason for the loss of pay and workrules is do to loss of revenue as a result of the Deregulation Act of 1978 signed by Jimmy Carter....

The second largest contibuting factor is ALPA and APA's selling of scope to prop up what was left of the pay and workrules for the senior mainline pilots who have since retired....

 

[Flopgut]

Sorry, I don't understand... what do you mean by pics (short for "pictures")? What's a madel? Not trying to be a smarta$$; I just don't understand what you're talking about.

Sorry, I was distracted. "Picks" as in safety industry recognition/awards, and "model" as is various production types/classes of autos. Nardelli's Chrysler designed cars for the UAW to build that not enough people wanted and that weren't honored as safe autos.

 

[T3700]

USAF pilot production in 1985 was right at 2000 pilots per year. In 1990 it was 1500. In 1995 it hit a historic low of 600. In 2000 it was up to around 1100. Latest data for 2008 shows that the USAF produced 925 pilots. The Air Force is short of pilots now and is trying to convince retired pilots to come back.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Sorry, I was distracted. "Picks" as in safety industry recognition/awards, and "model" as is various production types/classes of autos. Nardelli's Chrysler designed cars for the UAW to build that not enough people wanted and that weren't honored as safe autos.

Not even close. When you have to support retiree health care for a number equivalent of the entire population of Wyoming, you can't produce a quality product as a competitive price. Something has to give. UAW has found a friend in the White House who is willing to perpetuate the fantasy that it's still 1970 and that the UAW doesn't need to negotiate.

Why does the left love to talk about sustainability until it comes to the economy, then it clings to policies doomed to cause collateral damage when they inevitably fail.

Auto industry failing? Hand the keys to the folks whose contracts caused the problems.
Health Care in crisis? Slap together a product that causes far more problems than it solves.
Employment imploding? Focus all your efforts on destabilizing the economy so that no one will know whether or not to invest and grow because of the penaties for success.

Please would one of you right -seat lefties please give me an example of something that the left has done that qualifies as a success?

Change? How does repeating the failures of 80 years of liberalism equate to change?

 

[Dan Roman]

Thousands!? I would find it hard to believe there are even a total of one thousand [1000].

Age 65 is going to be a brick wall. I think a guy like Prater might try to pull some age waiver stunt that might help his own fat butt, however it aint going to work. If there are "thousands" of pilots abroad, when the need arises to hire here in the US I think the overseas jobs will be the first to pay more to keep the pilots.

What's great is, the old guys are just going to get old. That's it. For those of us who are younger and have solid experience there will be a rising tide the older boomers will be excluded from.

I got news for you dude, EVERYONE gets older (unless they are very unlucky), not just "old guys".

 

[Dan Roman]

If there is a pilot shortage, there are plenty of very well qualified Regional pilots to draw from for the Major Airlines. If the turnover becomes too excessive, it would force the Regionals to pay more to keep the qualified pilots from jumping ship from the left seat of an RJ to the bottom of the list of a Major. Which in turn would make a career in aviation more attractive at the regional level. Fact is though, pilots who go into aviation because they love to fly are far superior to those who go into it strictly for money. We need as many pilots who love aviation as possible to keep the bar high.

 

[Flopgut]

I got news for you dude, EVERYONE gets older (unless they are very unlucky), not just "old guys".

Some do it gracefully and some do not. Age 65 was a cake eater stunt and not graceful or honorable in the least bit.

Im knocked back into the right seat. I can say without hesitation that 90% of the guys who want to work past 60 have multiple bad divorces and have made really stupid investments. And I mean STUPID! The things they threw their money into would have made MC Hammer scratch his head. It is really unfortunate that the monies taken from the junior are being spent in this way.

 

[Flopgut]

Not even close. When you have to support retiree health care for a number equivalent of the entire population of Wyoming, you can't produce a quality product as a competitive price. Something has to give. UAW has found a friend in the White House who is willing to perpetuate the fantasy that it's still 1970 and that the UAW doesn't need to negotiate.

Why does the left love to talk about sustainability until it comes to the economy, then it clings to policies doomed to cause collateral damage when they inevitably fail.

Auto industry failing? Hand the keys to the folks whose contracts caused the problems.
Health Care in crisis? Slap together a product that causes far more problems than it solves.
Employment imploding? Focus all your efforts on destabilizing the economy so that no one will know whether or not to invest and grow because of the penaties for success.

Please would one of you right -seat lefties please give me an example of something that the left has done that qualifies as a success?

Change? How does repeating the failures of 80 years of liberalism equate to change?

I do not want to get into a political discussion.

As far as the UAW and automakers go, look at Fords recent profits. It is an example of good mgt giving good designs to to UAW to build. They didnt roll the UAW back to zero in order to prop up a chronically bad mgt team.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

There is no one solution or silver bullet.

Skiles and Sully, in theri congressional testimoney stated they know of no one that wants their kids to be airline pilots....


The default response is to let the market decide. Keep in mind pilots are American consumers just like airline ticket purchasers. The power our our market culture to demand low prices is a force that monumentous.

The only way corporations are going comply is federal legislation. If they are not forced thru law to comply they will seek out the cheapest route. Don't underestimate managements ability to find cheap labor. They will even surprise themselves.

ERAU/UND are selling sugar coated dreams. And guys are buying...


The real question is... who owns the Air Line Pilot Profession? Who are the custodians? Who is going to define, manage and lead the Profession?

After you look around at managment, govt, industry for those who care about the profession and you find no one, it is time to realize that we are The Keepers of the Air Line Pilot Profession.

Only we care about it. The question is... what are you going to do about it. Quit looking for Congress, the Market and your CEO to do the "right thing".

A few goals are:

Redefine our image.

Ensure legislative and WH Admin polices are favorable.

Mentor and lead students at schools like UND/ERAU

​

What else?

 

[Flightdawg]

I got news for you dude, EVERYONE gets older (unless they are very unlucky), not just "old guys".

You mean the young guys aren't bullet proof and will fly forever as soon as they can move to the left seat? This is going to come to a shock for some.

On average, about 15% of older pilots fail their medical and are forced to retire early. This data was pre-age 65. I expect the percentage to shoot up considerably after age 60. A lifetime of bad food, little exercise, disrupted rest cycles, smoking and alcohol is going to take its toll on more than a few of our brethren.

 

[Flightdawg]

Age 65 was a cake eater stunt and not graceful or honorable in the least bit.

Incorrect. It was the FAA bringing the FAR's into line with ICAO standard. American pilot unions had a choice of either sitting along the sidelines complaining about the intention or becoming involved to mitigate the damage. The Executive Council chose wisely in my opinion. It always sucks to have to chose between the lessor of two evils.

 

[Dan Roman]

You mean the young guys aren't bullet proof and will fly forever as soon as they can move to the left seat? This is going to come to a shock for some.

On average, about 15% of older pilots fail their medical and are forced to retire early. This data was pre-age 65. I expect the percentage to shoot up considerably after age 60. A lifetime of bad food, little exercise, disrupted rest cycles, smoking and alcohol is going to take its toll on more than a few of our brethren.

Couldn't agree more. I would add one more lifestyle choice that would also be a major health risk, getting so bitter and obsessed over something that it dominants your thoughts and taints reality.
Flopgut, I hope you aren't as obsessed in life about this as you appear to be on F/I.

 

[Dan Roman]

Incorrect. It was the FAA bringing the FAR's into line with ICAO standard. American pilot unions had a choice of either sitting along the sidelines complaining about the intention or becoming involved to mitigate the damage. The Executive Council chose wisely in my opinion. It always sucks to have to chose between the lessor of two evils.

You are right again.

 

[Bringupthebird]

The outlook for pilot pay will remain dismal as long as airlines refuse to price their product based on costs of production. They dump their seats on priceline, et.al. because they dread an empty seat at pushback. However in doing this, they set the standard for ticket prices unsustainably low.

The ticket agent thing was a bit of a racket, but no more so than the real estate agent system. You need a way to buffer the access to fares among all the airlines at once. A passenger who can instantly compare all fares in the open will set the stage for airlines to price tickets irrationally and use labor's dependance on a paycheck to absorb losses related to such irrational pricing.

Deregulation and internet distribution are the dynamite and gasoline that blew up all stability in the airline industry. Unfortunately for the airline employees, they are the only victims of such instability - the public is blithely unaware.

Labor has 2 choices - Hope for a return to stability or adapt the career to survive in the ups and downs by unhooking themselves to a particular employer.

 

[Flopgut]

Incorrect. It was the FAA bringing the FAR's into line with ICAO standard. American pilot unions had a choice of either sitting along the sidelines complaining about the intention or becoming involved to mitigate the damage. The Executive Council chose wisely in my opinion. It always sucks to have to chose between the lessor of two evils.

Well, it would seem the lesser of two evils always tilts in favor of Prater's generation. That makes him, and the rest of his kind, cake eaters.

BTW: Wasn't it Congress that changed it? In the middle of the night, in a BS session when even as many as one, single no vote would have squelched it?

 

[jpeace02]

Will be furloughed from NJA in January. The feeling of freedom is unbelivable. We've seen it coming so we've had time to plan but getting out of aviation and LEARNING something new is pretty sweet.

Pilots, myself included, have this bad habit of thinking, "I'm tied to this seniority list I can't leave and start over." Nothing against unions, mine's been awesome but I can't wait to get into an industry where I'm needed and wanted.

In 5-7 years maybe I go back maybe I don't. But I'm sure as hell not going back to sh*& wages and working conditions.