So what is the netjets story?

[Hogprint]

Thanks again GV for the candid comments:

As far as Richard saying that NJA pilots would eventually fly Gulfstreams, I'm not disputing that he said it, I simply don't know anyone who heard him say that - not in NJI nor in Columbus.

I don't know if he said it either, but have always heard that since I've been here. There has been a lot of water over the dam and it's hard to pin down what is fact or tribal knowledge.

 

[CRAWDADDY]

As far as Richard saying that NJA pilots would eventually fly Gulfstreams, I'm not disputing that he said it, I simply don't know anyone who heard him say that - not in NJI nor in Columbus.

GV

I don't know any one who heard it from him either. He only showed up in CMH a few more times than he does now. But, he wrote it in a letter mailed to all of us. Now, if I can only figures out how to link the pdf here.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

...they did not want a large group of marginally qualified Citation II pilots flying their jets. ...GV

He, he, he...

Ace

 

[BBJPILOT]

Dont hold your breath for a new contract any time soon. The Teamsters want scope to include NJI regardless of the pay package, schedule etc.

Wrong, as usual, but try again. It will however cost Santulli a lot of money to keep his ego in full flower! Not sure if Buffett will agree, after all, he, not Santulli "owns" the Company(s), Santulli is just an employee!

 

[BBJPILOT]

EJI was chartered in South Carolina because of favorable tax rates on aircraft deliveries. Other locations that would have worked include Nashua, New Hampshire and Wilmington, DE. South Carolina was chosen because of it's proximity to Gulfstream and the joint nature of the original EJI/Gulfstream relationship.

Gulfstream was the driver in EJI being a separate company. For brand management they did not want a large group of marginally qualified Citation II pilots flying their jets. Gulfstream insisted on internationally qualified Gulfstream pilots. The only way to achieve this was for the then Executive Jet to write an exception to scope, get the Teamsters to ratify it and form a separate company.

It is to be noted as well that Gulfstream is profoundly anti-union. In the 70's the company moved from Bethpage, NJ to Savannah, GA primarily because of the lack of quality in the northern union workforce and the perceived quality of the non-union good-ole-boy workers in the South.

I can't speak to Richard's thoughts or motivations in all of this. It is my observation, however, that he runs the company in a very Northeastern fashion, that is to say that his management style is based on personal loyalty. He rewards those that are loyal to him, punishes those who are not. For instance, I've known the present President of NJI since he worked for Digital Equipment. He is ideally suited to his present job and has done a superb job of collegially leading the company. However, at the time Joe was selected to lead EJI, there were others in the company that, to some, appeared to be better qualified for the position. Santulli chose him to lead EJI/NJI because Joe had been with him from the start and had been steadfast in his support of Richard and the company.

As far as Richard saying that NJA pilots would eventually fly Gulfstreams, I'm not disputing that he said it, I simply don't know anyone who heard him say that - not in NJI nor in Columbus. I do know that he advised the union at the time they ratifed the exception to scope for the Gulfstreams that there would be no further exceptions for large aircraft and there weren't. When the BBJ was brought on board, he hired contract training captains for what was at first to be three years, then eventually became four years, to bring the NJA pilots up to speed.



GV

Wrong again, I love it when "experts" talk about what they know nothing of!

All BBJ LOTs were gone at 36 months or EARLIER! Most were relegated to SIC duties after the first year. Many were fired because they "ain't that good". Within the first year, NJA pilots were flying with each other and no LOTs. They were simply there to get all the extended days they could before leaving the Company.

There is so much else wrong with so many of the NJI posts it just isn't worth the time. Loyalty, yea that is sure something Santulli can never be claimed to have. Loyalty would be something shown to the pilots who really built this Company, who worked for crap for years when he was going under, who were promised by the "the Great One" that the reward was just around the corner. Pilots that worked here long before EJI was a wet dream, who flew 707s, KC135s, and yes, even the big bad G-Whiz. Falcons, lears, you name it, pilots at EJA flew them and were here in 1995. It was a sad tired story of how "Teddy won't do the deal with us if Union Pilots have to fly them". Or "Come on guys, let me get this thing going, once the Joint Marketing Agreement ends then I can bring them back to EJA where I really want them." Yep, good ole Loyal Santulli! Remember where the money came from for so many of EJIs formative years of loss, that is where the loyalty should reside. It is gonna be fun, I will personally gaurantee that!

 

[CRAWDADDY]

The stupidity of the BBJ LOT program was only matched when they tried to put street captains in the itty bitty Ultra.

The problem with the BBJ is that RTS has shown loyalty. But, it's been towards his buddy Gillette who ran a couple planes out of Hartford and was always bad mouthing the union(not exactly a great resume). Could he be one of the pro-mgt posters on this board? His grammar is definately better than the Hi-flight crew team member pages we used to get every day. Other than that, he has the Midas Touch in reverse. To wit, everything he touches turns to $hit.

 

[GVFlyer]

Wrong again, I love it when "experts" talk about what they know nothing of!

All BBJ LOTs were gone at 36 months or EARLIER! Most were relegated to SIC duties after the first year. Many were fired because they "ain't that good". Within the first year, NJA pilots were flying with each other and no LOTs. They were simply there to get all the extended days they could before leaving the Company.

There is so much else wrong with so many of the NJI posts it just isn't worth the time. Loyalty, yea that is sure something Santulli can never be claimed to have. Loyalty would be something shown to the pilots who really built this Company, who worked for crap for years when he was going under, who were promised by the "the Great One" that the reward was just around the corner. Pilots that worked here long before EJI was a wet dream, who flew 707s, KC135s, and yes, even the big bad G-Whiz. Falcons, lears, you name it, pilots at EJA flew them and were here in 1995. It was a sad tired story of how "Teddy won't do the deal with us if Union Pilots have to fly them". Or "Come on guys, let me get this thing going, once the Joint Marketing Agreement ends then I can bring them back to EJA where I really want them." Yep, good ole Loyal Santulli! Remember where the money came from for so many of EJIs formative years of loss, that is where the loyalty should reside. It is gonna be fun, I will personally gaurantee that!

I stand by my post. If you have been at NetJets long enough to be flying the BBJ, you probably have access to Woodbridge (where corporate headquarters moved from Montvale). In addition to Richard Santulli, Jim Jacobs and David Orlinsky were signatories of the original Gulfstream- Executive Jet contract. Bill Boisture, Reanor Reavis, and Don Mayer (of the Mayer family in Oscar-Mayer) represented Gulfstream. I suggest you contact one of the NetJets representatives to confirm the facts of my posting. Now that David has retired he probably has time to take your call.

Another interesting element of the contract was an agreement that NetJets would not buy competing large cabin jets such as the Global Express and the BBJ. After NetJets returned the original three core Gulfstreams (that Gulfstream had provided them) and purchased three new core aircraft (EJI was profitable much more quickly than anyone thought they could be), they no longer felt that they needed to honor that part of the contract. A part of the reason you terminated your relationship with Boeing just over three years ago was continuing pressure from Gulfstream.

I'm obviously not a NetJets employee, but I do have specific knowledge about your company as far as it's relationship to Gulfstream. I was a peripheral participant in the initial contract, participated in the joint marketing effort until Kevin Russell decided that Gulfstream was too expensive a partner in 1999 and flew an NJI Gulfstream as an owner's captain for over a year.

You didn't point out that the LOT captains at BDL had the option at the end of their contract to go fly the line in any NetJets aircraft that their seniority number would hold, that is to say the C-560. I assume that's what you guys have in mind for the Gulfstream pilots at NJI.

Additionally, I have known your chief pilot, Steve G., for over 20 years and his 860-292-XXXX phone number is in my speed dial. There are two groups of pilots at Bradley and I'm betting you're in the group that doesn't support their boss.


GV

 

[GVFlyer]

The stupidity of the BBJ LOT program was only matched when they tried to put street captains in the itty bitty Ultra.

The problem with the BBJ is that RTS has shown loyalty. But, it's been towards his buddy Gillette who ran a couple planes out of Hartford and was always bad mouthing the union(not exactly a great resume). Could he be one of the pro-mgt posters on this board? His grammar is definately better than the Hi-flight crew team member pages we used to get every day. Other than that, he has the Midas Touch in reverse. To wit, everything he touches turns to $hit.

I will agree with your post in so far as Richard showing loyalty to Steve, that's not his last name by the way. However, Steve has accomplished much in Connecticut. He got the FAR Part 135 certificate for the Gulfstreams and Boeings and the FAR Part 121 ticket for the BBJs. He aided in identifying a BBJ program that was not working and provided leadership in creating a formula that is working.


GV







~

 

[Muddauber]

All BBJ LOTs were gone at 36 months or EARLIER! Most were relegated to SIC duties after the first year. Many were fired because they "ain't that good". Within the first year, NJA pilots were flying with each other and no LOTs.

Lessee, considering the ulitization you guys were getting the first year, that means you were flying Boeings around the world with 400 maybe 500 hours of heavy jet time total up front.

Sounds down right dangerous to me.

Muddy

 

[transpac]

Lessee, considering the ulitization you guys were getting the first year, that means you were flying Boeings around the world with 400 maybe 500 hours of heavy jet time total up front.

Sounds down right dangerous to me.

Muddy

Are you saying a 737 is a heavy jet? Maybe to you, but the folks who actually fly heavies think it's a light twin. There are Ultra pilots at NJA with more heavy time than you have total.

 

[SeaSpray]

Pilots that worked here long before EJI was a wet dream, who flew 707s, KC135s, and yes, even the big bad G-Whiz. Falcons, lears, you name it, pilots at EJA flew them and were here in 1995.

Gee, all those qualifications and the only job they could find was flying a 16,000 lb Cessna for $hit wages in a glorified charter company. Did these pilots have a history of DWI's or flight violations or was it just that their personalities were the best form of birth control known to man.

You gotta admit that moving from a six figure Gulfstream job to flying for NJA for peanuts is not exactly the career progression most of us would aspire to.

These guys must have screwed the pooch somewhere.

 

[pilot91101]

So when are you guys striking? I can't take this anymore. What will you guys talk about after the contract is settled?

 

[SeaSpray]

Are you saying a 737 is a heavy jet? Maybe to you, but the folks who actually fly heavies think it's a light twin. There are Ultra pilots at NJA with more heavy time than you have total.

I think I see a trend here. NJA is not a first choice company for pilots who have options. If you have Ultra pilots at NJA with over 9,000 hours of heavy time, they either screwed up somewhere and are unemployable in a good job or they are members of the geriatric set and should be thinking about a rocker and a good poop rather than flying tiny Cessnas.

 

[SkyGirl]

Are you saying a 737 is a heavy jet? Maybe to you, but the folks who actually fly heavies think it's a light twin. There are Ultra pilots at NJA with more heavy time than you have total.

I think you missed the point of Muddy's post - that there were exceptionally inexperienced Boeing crews flying for NetJets. Were the passengers aware they were flying with such low time pilots?

_SkyGirl_

 

[squonk]

Seaspray said:

Gee, all those qualifications and the only job they could find was flying a 16,000 lb Cessna for $hit wages in a glorified charter company. Did these pilots have a history of DWI's or flight violations or was it just that their personalities were the best form of birth control known to man.

I think I see a trend here. NJA is not a first choice company for pilots who have options. If you have Ultra pilots at NJA with over 9,000 hours of heavy time,

Most of our high time airline guys come over after mandatory age 60 retirement. We also have a ton of furloughees. They may or may not have had a choice in their selection of equipment.

I think that is what the original poster was trying to imply.

 

[squonk]

I think you missed the point of Muddy's post - that there were exceptionally inexperienced Boeing crews flying for NetJets. Were the passengers aware they were flying with such low time pilots?

_SkyGirl_

SkyGirl,

I don't buy this logic. We all have to start at the bottom and work our way up. Most people have strapped on a jet or two by the time they flew the "Boeing".

I saw an earlier post about Gulfstream not wanting marginal CII guys flying their airplanes.

A plane is plane. Any one of us can go pass the type and be ready to hit the line. What is the magic number when you become experienced?

 

[SkyGirl]

SkyGirl,

I don't buy this logic. We all have to start at the bottom and work our way up. Most people have strapped on a jet or two by the time they flew the "Boeing".

I saw an earlier post about Gulfstream not wanting marginal CII guys flying their airplanes.

A plane is plane. Any one of us can go pass the type and be ready to hit the line. What is the magic number when you become experienced?

Thanks for your reply.

I'm not qualified to make that judgement, but I know that I wouldn't be comfortable on a flight if I knew the cockpit crew had so little time in the equipment.

Also, although I only have a private license I have taken physics and I know there is a difference in flying a little airplane and a big one.

From what I've read here, it seems like the guys that should know, Gulfstream Aerospace Company, thought the "magic number" was 2500 hours in type and a captain qualification.


_SkyGirl_

 

[Hawkered]

Yeah..I think that's pretty unfair. I spoke to a guy from a major airline who works here in his early fifties. He was furloughed from USAir and had been a captain on F-28, B-737 and A-319/320/321. He had also done a stint of international on B-767 as an F/O.

Believe me, these guys have not done anything "wrong". Seventeen different types of aircraft and the last dozen or so management teams had a lot more to do with it than anyone at his level screwing the pooch.

 

[transpac]

Thanks for your reply.

I'm not qualified to make that judgement, but I know that I wouldn't be comfortable on a flight if I knew the cockpit crew had so little time in the equipment.

Also, although I only have a private license I have taken physics and I know there is a difference in flying a little airplane and a big one.

From what I've read here, it seems like the guys that should know, Gulfstream Aerospace Company, thought the "magic number" was 2500 hours in type and a captain qualification.


_SkyGirl_

Skygirl: If you're worried about the Captain's time in type, don't fly on the airlines. Chances are you've flown at least once with a Captain with zero prior hours in the equipment. I'm astonished to read that you think Gulfstream knows more than NJA and Boeing about experience requirements for B-737 Captains. Also, perhaps you could expand about the different laws of physics that apply to large airplanes. I must'a been asleep when that was covered during big 'un training.

 

[Muddauber]

Are you saying a 737 is a heavy jet? Maybe to you, but the folks who actually fly heavies think it's a light twin. There are Ultra pilots at NJA with more heavy time than you have total.

Yes, yes I know. The jet I fly takes off at 174,200 lbs and in my career field a heavy starts with aircraft taking off at 255,000 MGTOW or greater, the definition in executive aviation is different, but that's not the point.

The point is, if what BBJPilot posted is true, NetJets was operating BBJs with low time crews that may have met legal requirements, but certainly didn't meet common sense requirements.

Also, it's my take is that NJA filled the BBJ seats based on seniority, not qualifications. I'm betting that there was no effort to move the "Ultra pilots at NJA with more heavy time than have total," into the BBJ jobs and these guys probably won't live long enough to see a Boeing at NJA and impart all that heavy knowledge.


Muddy

 

[transpac]

Yes, yes I know. The jet I fly takes off at 174,200 lbs and in my career field a heavy starts with aircraft taking off at 255,000 MGTOW or greater, the definition in executive aviation is different, but that's not the point.

The point is, if what BBJPilot posted is true, NetJets was operating BBJs with low time crews that may have met legal requirements, but certainly didn't meet common sense requirements.

Also, it's my take is that NJA filled the BBJ seats based on seniority, not qualifications. I'm betting that there was no effort to move the "Ultra pilots at NJA with more heavy time than have total," into the BBJ jobs and these guys probably won't live long enough to see a Boeing at NJA and impart all that heavy knowledge.


Muddy

I do believe you're correct that seniority was the determining factor in awarding the BBJ bids. I suspect that SWA will likewise follow a seniority based bid system if they ever obtain larger aircraft. All of the BBJ selectees had several thousand hours jet PIC time and most had international experience. The absence of any newsworthy events involving a NJA BBJ over the past five or so years is pretty good evidence that the process worked. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for all B-737 operators.

 

[Hawkered]

Hey there Muddy,

You don't really fit the profile of a SWAPpy. You seem to lack humility and a sense of respect for your peers. The world is different now...and its time for you to step down off your high horse. You're givin' all my good friends over there a bad name!!

 

[Muddauber]

I suspect that SWA will ... follow a seniority based bid system if they ever obtain larger aircraft.

I don't think Gary Kelly would ever abandon Herb's one airplane formula for success. He's an accountant by trade and our former CFO, by nature he likes to stay with things that show demonstrated profitability.

All of the BBJ selectees had several thousand hours jet PIC time and most had international experience. The absence of any newsworthy events involving a NJA BBJ over the past five or so years is pretty good evidence that the process worked. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for all B-737 operators.

You know, I think that a lot of today's flight safety record can be attributed to the sophistication and reliability of modern aircraft.

Aircraft are designed with systems that feature redundancy in depth and automatically sort through failures. Equipment such as enhanced ground prox and TCAS have made a measurable impact on flight safety as have modern cockpits which automate many pilot functions and reduce workload through anthropomorhic and human factors design as well as enhancing situational awareness through devices such as glass cockpits.

Navigation systems featuring GPS and providing RNP 0.1 accuracy have had a positive impact as well.

Training has made it's contribution to safety with the development of Level D simulators and the emphasis on Cockpit Resource Management. JetBlue managed to field a fleet with the least experienced Airbus crews in the world with no mishaps. The time when time in type is important is when all this stuff stops working or when you encounter atmospheric conditions that won't allow the airplane to fly itself out of danger. Fortunately, the first doesn't happen very often and dispatch normally keeps you out of the second.


Muddy






.

 

[GEXDriver]

Are you saying a 737 is a heavy jet? Maybe to you, but the folks who actually fly heavies think it's a light twin. There are Ultra pilots at NJA with more heavy time than you have total.

It's amazing that Muddy, with his limited experience and all, somehow managed to land himself a $185,000 a year job.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Hmmm how many people do I know who go to fly SWA 737 right out of the cockpit of the F-18 or harrier? And a few right out of the 16500 lb NJA Ultra?

 

[GEXDriver]

Hmmm how many people do I know who go to fly SWA 737 right out of the cockpit of the F-18 or harrier? And a few right out of the 16500 lb NJA Ultra?

Was the guy in the left seat a rookie, too? I believe that's muddy's point.

 

[transpac]

It's amazing that Muddy, with his limited experience and all, somehow managed to land himself a $185,000 a year job.

Muddy is a lucky guy. Such jobs usually result from good preparation coupled with good timing. Of course, who you know sometimes has a little to do with it.

 

[transpac]

Was the guy in the left seat a rookie, too? I believe that's muddy's point.

Don't think I'd call a pilot with 10000+ total and 7500+ jet PIC a rookie. As far as time in type, a SWA Captain will have a bunch. Anywhere else this may or may not be the case. But, as SWA has demonstrated, high time in type doesn't ensure good judgement.

 

[Fracster]

Muddauber,

Just so we get things straight you are the best pilot ever!

Muddy is so over qualified because he flies round dials so he doesnt have to worry about any advanced avionics crapping out unlike jetBlue where losing said avionics would make the unqualified jetBlue crew incapable of completing the flight. And since the training is so superb at jetBlue, again saving those unqualified crews, we can assume that your training at SWA was sh!t because you are an excellent pilot who has never had an incident/accident in your ancient 737 flying the same route day in, day out, day after day.

You take a pilot flying a 737 who upgrades into a 767, 747 or what have you and he is qualified but guys who were flying military aircraft or corporate jets flying with another captain for atleast a year are still unqualified in a 737?

The type of flying the BBJ crews were doing in their first year was more difficult then you will ever do in your SWA career.

 

[GEXDriver]

Muddy is so over qualified because he flies round dials so he doesnt have to worry about any advanced avionics crapping out unlike jetBlue where losing said avionics would make the unqualified jetBlue crew incapable of completing the flight. And since the training is so superb at jetBlue, again saving those unqualified crews, we can assume that your training at SWA was sh!t because you are an excellent pilot who has never had an incident/accident in your ancient 737 flying the same route day in, day out, day after day.

??? Last time I checked Southwest had over 200 New Generation B737-700s.

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRH9702/FR9702ab.htm

The type of flying the BBJ crews were doing in their first year was more difficult then you will ever do in your SWA career.

Just checking his profile, maybe Muddy did something more challenging than being a Southwest captain when he was in the military - like flying an F-16 in Iraq.