So what is the netjets story?

[squonk]

I think you missed the point of Muddy's post - that there were exceptionally inexperienced Boeing crews flying for NetJets. Were the passengers aware they were flying with such low time pilots?

_SkyGirl_

SkyGirl,

I don't buy this logic. We all have to start at the bottom and work our way up. Most people have strapped on a jet or two by the time they flew the "Boeing".

I saw an earlier post about Gulfstream not wanting marginal CII guys flying their airplanes.

A plane is plane. Any one of us can go pass the type and be ready to hit the line. What is the magic number when you become experienced?

 

[SkyGirl]

SkyGirl,

I don't buy this logic. We all have to start at the bottom and work our way up. Most people have strapped on a jet or two by the time they flew the "Boeing".

I saw an earlier post about Gulfstream not wanting marginal CII guys flying their airplanes.

A plane is plane. Any one of us can go pass the type and be ready to hit the line. What is the magic number when you become experienced?

Thanks for your reply.

I'm not qualified to make that judgement, but I know that I wouldn't be comfortable on a flight if I knew the cockpit crew had so little time in the equipment.

Also, although I only have a private license I have taken physics and I know there is a difference in flying a little airplane and a big one.

From what I've read here, it seems like the guys that should know, Gulfstream Aerospace Company, thought the "magic number" was 2500 hours in type and a captain qualification.


_SkyGirl_

 

[Hawkered]

Yeah..I think that's pretty unfair. I spoke to a guy from a major airline who works here in his early fifties. He was furloughed from USAir and had been a captain on F-28, B-737 and A-319/320/321. He had also done a stint of international on B-767 as an F/O.

Believe me, these guys have not done anything "wrong". Seventeen different types of aircraft and the last dozen or so management teams had a lot more to do with it than anyone at his level screwing the pooch.

 

[transpac]

Thanks for your reply.

I'm not qualified to make that judgement, but I know that I wouldn't be comfortable on a flight if I knew the cockpit crew had so little time in the equipment.

Also, although I only have a private license I have taken physics and I know there is a difference in flying a little airplane and a big one.

From what I've read here, it seems like the guys that should know, Gulfstream Aerospace Company, thought the "magic number" was 2500 hours in type and a captain qualification.


_SkyGirl_

Skygirl: If you're worried about the Captain's time in type, don't fly on the airlines. Chances are you've flown at least once with a Captain with zero prior hours in the equipment. I'm astonished to read that you think Gulfstream knows more than NJA and Boeing about experience requirements for B-737 Captains. Also, perhaps you could expand about the different laws of physics that apply to large airplanes. I must'a been asleep when that was covered during big 'un training.

 

[Muddauber]

Are you saying a 737 is a heavy jet? Maybe to you, but the folks who actually fly heavies think it's a light twin. There are Ultra pilots at NJA with more heavy time than you have total.

Yes, yes I know. The jet I fly takes off at 174,200 lbs and in my career field a heavy starts with aircraft taking off at 255,000 MGTOW or greater, the definition in executive aviation is different, but that's not the point.

The point is, if what BBJPilot posted is true, NetJets was operating BBJs with low time crews that may have met legal requirements, but certainly didn't meet common sense requirements.

Also, it's my take is that NJA filled the BBJ seats based on seniority, not qualifications. I'm betting that there was no effort to move the "Ultra pilots at NJA with more heavy time than have total," into the BBJ jobs and these guys probably won't live long enough to see a Boeing at NJA and impart all that heavy knowledge.


Muddy

 

[transpac]

Yes, yes I know. The jet I fly takes off at 174,200 lbs and in my career field a heavy starts with aircraft taking off at 255,000 MGTOW or greater, the definition in executive aviation is different, but that's not the point.

The point is, if what BBJPilot posted is true, NetJets was operating BBJs with low time crews that may have met legal requirements, but certainly didn't meet common sense requirements.

Also, it's my take is that NJA filled the BBJ seats based on seniority, not qualifications. I'm betting that there was no effort to move the "Ultra pilots at NJA with more heavy time than have total," into the BBJ jobs and these guys probably won't live long enough to see a Boeing at NJA and impart all that heavy knowledge.


Muddy

I do believe you're correct that seniority was the determining factor in awarding the BBJ bids. I suspect that SWA will likewise follow a seniority based bid system if they ever obtain larger aircraft. All of the BBJ selectees had several thousand hours jet PIC time and most had international experience. The absence of any newsworthy events involving a NJA BBJ over the past five or so years is pretty good evidence that the process worked. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for all B-737 operators.

 

[Hawkered]

Hey there Muddy,

You don't really fit the profile of a SWAPpy. You seem to lack humility and a sense of respect for your peers. The world is different now...and its time for you to step down off your high horse. You're givin' all my good friends over there a bad name!!

 

[Muddauber]

I suspect that SWA will ... follow a seniority based bid system if they ever obtain larger aircraft.

I don't think Gary Kelly would ever abandon Herb's one airplane formula for success. He's an accountant by trade and our former CFO, by nature he likes to stay with things that show demonstrated profitability.

All of the BBJ selectees had several thousand hours jet PIC time and most had international experience. The absence of any newsworthy events involving a NJA BBJ over the past five or so years is pretty good evidence that the process worked. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for all B-737 operators.

You know, I think that a lot of today's flight safety record can be attributed to the sophistication and reliability of modern aircraft.

Aircraft are designed with systems that feature redundancy in depth and automatically sort through failures. Equipment such as enhanced ground prox and TCAS have made a measurable impact on flight safety as have modern cockpits which automate many pilot functions and reduce workload through anthropomorhic and human factors design as well as enhancing situational awareness through devices such as glass cockpits.

Navigation systems featuring GPS and providing RNP 0.1 accuracy have had a positive impact as well.

Training has made it's contribution to safety with the development of Level D simulators and the emphasis on Cockpit Resource Management. JetBlue managed to field a fleet with the least experienced Airbus crews in the world with no mishaps. The time when time in type is important is when all this stuff stops working or when you encounter atmospheric conditions that won't allow the airplane to fly itself out of danger. Fortunately, the first doesn't happen very often and dispatch normally keeps you out of the second.


Muddy






.

 

[GEXDriver]

Are you saying a 737 is a heavy jet? Maybe to you, but the folks who actually fly heavies think it's a light twin. There are Ultra pilots at NJA with more heavy time than you have total.

It's amazing that Muddy, with his limited experience and all, somehow managed to land himself a $185,000 a year job.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Hmmm how many people do I know who go to fly SWA 737 right out of the cockpit of the F-18 or harrier? And a few right out of the 16500 lb NJA Ultra?

 

[GEXDriver]

Hmmm how many people do I know who go to fly SWA 737 right out of the cockpit of the F-18 or harrier? And a few right out of the 16500 lb NJA Ultra?

Was the guy in the left seat a rookie, too? I believe that's muddy's point.

 

[transpac]

It's amazing that Muddy, with his limited experience and all, somehow managed to land himself a $185,000 a year job.

Muddy is a lucky guy. Such jobs usually result from good preparation coupled with good timing. Of course, who you know sometimes has a little to do with it.

 

[transpac]

Was the guy in the left seat a rookie, too? I believe that's muddy's point.

Don't think I'd call a pilot with 10000+ total and 7500+ jet PIC a rookie. As far as time in type, a SWA Captain will have a bunch. Anywhere else this may or may not be the case. But, as SWA has demonstrated, high time in type doesn't ensure good judgement.

 

[Fracster]

Muddauber,

Just so we get things straight you are the best pilot ever!

Muddy is so over qualified because he flies round dials so he doesnt have to worry about any advanced avionics crapping out unlike jetBlue where losing said avionics would make the unqualified jetBlue crew incapable of completing the flight. And since the training is so superb at jetBlue, again saving those unqualified crews, we can assume that your training at SWA was sh!t because you are an excellent pilot who has never had an incident/accident in your ancient 737 flying the same route day in, day out, day after day.

You take a pilot flying a 737 who upgrades into a 767, 747 or what have you and he is qualified but guys who were flying military aircraft or corporate jets flying with another captain for atleast a year are still unqualified in a 737?

The type of flying the BBJ crews were doing in their first year was more difficult then you will ever do in your SWA career.

 

[GEXDriver]

Muddy is so over qualified because he flies round dials so he doesnt have to worry about any advanced avionics crapping out unlike jetBlue where losing said avionics would make the unqualified jetBlue crew incapable of completing the flight. And since the training is so superb at jetBlue, again saving those unqualified crews, we can assume that your training at SWA was sh!t because you are an excellent pilot who has never had an incident/accident in your ancient 737 flying the same route day in, day out, day after day.

??? Last time I checked Southwest had over 200 New Generation B737-700s.

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRH9702/FR9702ab.htm

The type of flying the BBJ crews were doing in their first year was more difficult then you will ever do in your SWA career.

Just checking his profile, maybe Muddy did something more challenging than being a Southwest captain when he was in the military - like flying an F-16 in Iraq.