So now we are not professional...

[maru657]

Yes, you are treated like busdrivers, have been since de-regulation. More hours, but less pay. Mom and pop hotels. The pensions are going along with the hope of a stable retirement. As a representative asked during the hearings regarding the Colgain Air crash after the flt ops stooge said, "We expect our pilots to exhibit professional behavior". "Sir, are professionals expected to live on 16K per year'. So you may continue to see a lapse of professional behavior especially when bending over in the TSA line. Regarding that, a friend said,"well, since FedEx". My thought was it's a good thing jumpseaters are not around any accessable weapons, like crash axes.

 

[UALRATT]

You despise me because I won't refuse a job to push pay up?

If you want 120k and I'll work for 90k, who are you to tell me what salary I should be willing to accept? Maybe 90k feels like a million dollars to me.

Maybe it is not all about the money. If I have a decent schedule and acceptable pay, I'll take the job. I'm sorry that the whole world isn't willing to help enforce a cartel.

It's called freedom. Freedom for me to decide the wage I'm willing to work for.

Simple economics.

I would never cross a picket line, of course. But if a new company was starting up and they offered me 60k for right seat in an Airbus, I'd take it. It's better than what I have now.

We must accept reality - a currently enormous oversupply of pilots is going to make wage gains challenging.

Nooo wonder you are as you say "...someone who has spent years bouncing around on the bottom end of the food chain in aviation, spent a long time furloughed, and did a stint in the regionals and for dirtbag 135 operators".

Food for thought: Your fortunes might just change if you joined in to raise the profession back to its rightful place among professions. It's a struggle that's as old as the wilber and orville, and now its your turn to hold the wheel, not drop an anchor in tow.

 

[waveflyer]

If you want higher wages. Support politicians who support unions. AND support your own union. And act in a way that supports the industry. IE: Support getting rid of 1st year pay at your airline.

I've given this dissertation before. We do NOT get paid a free market wage.... b/c we are not FREE. Seniority ties the free hand of competition. There is virtually no competition between carriers to hold onto talent. No matter how good i am at this work, i cannot go to a competing carrier- offer up my resume, and receive higher wages or responsibility. BC of this and the insane tradition of 1st year pay, for the vast majority of us it is an irresponsible choice to leave any competing carrier once we accrue any form of seniority.

Until we can interchange companies without a devastating financial and QOL hit to our lives, can we dispense with the supply and demand crap. It takes 1500 hours to hold an ATP and most of us are pretty good by that amount of flight time. There is no supply problem and there rarely has been any correlation to pilot wages and supply. What our pay is tied to is the strength of our UNIONS.

 

[livin'thesim]

Nooo wonder you are as you say "...someone who has spent years bouncing around on the bottom end of the food chain in aviation, spent a long time furloughed, and did a stint in the regionals and for dirtbag 135 operators".

Food for thought: Your fortunes might just change if you joined in to raise the profession back to its rightful place among professions. It's a struggle that's as old as the wilber and orville, and now its your turn to hold the wheel, not drop an anchor in tow.

Um, you're incorrect. My halting career was a result of bad economic times, and some financial problems at my carrier. No one knows who is going to survive and who isn't.

You're trying the old attack of suggesting that bad luck in one's career is the fault of the pilot.

Point is, I'm right. Lots of guys are going to work for less, and if your highness is displeased with the wages offered, I suggest you find a new royal line of work.

My professionalism is measured by my standards of airmanship, dedication to professionalism, and the positive feedback from my co-workers and supervisors.

Apparently for you, the dollar signs determine one's professionalism.

Well, whatever.

The marketplace is the marketplace. I'll ask for as much pay as I can get, and decide if it is enough for me.

What is nauseating is people like you who put some artificial pay rate on yourself and decide that anything less is 'demeaning'.

I can only hope that your airmanship matches your ego and sense of entitlement. If so, congrats.

 

[Linedriver]

Um, you're incorrect. My halting career was a result of bad economic times, and some financial problems at my carrier. No one knows who is going to survive and who isn't.

You're trying the old attack of suggesting that bad luck in one's career is the fault of the pilot.

Point is, I'm right. Lots of guys are going to work for less, and if your highness is displeased with the wages offered, I suggest you find a new royal line of work.

My professionalism is measured by my standards of airmanship, dedication to professionalism, and the positive feedback from my co-workers and supervisors.

Apparently for you, the dollar signs determine one's professionalism.

Well, whatever.

The marketplace is the marketplace. I'll ask for as much pay as I can get, and decide if it is enough for me.

What is nauseating is people like you who put some artificial pay rate on yourself and decide that anything less is 'demeaning'.

I can only hope that your airmanship matches your ego and sense of entitlement. If so, congrats.

Hey man, don't mean to dog pile you here but UALRAT is right. For the most part airline salaries have remained constant over the past 20 years while all other salaries in all other industries have risen. And by the time you add inflation that means backwards progress. This industry has suffered much.

I understand your position but what we need in the airline industry is team players and you are willing to undercut your team members. We have to strive to build this industry back up, not tear it down further. If that happens it will just turn out to be another 'dirtbag' industry for pilots.

I'm afraid he's right about getting back in too. Your attitude will come across in an interview and it's over.

Just sayin'.

 

[maru657]

Can't blame the man for his willingness to accept less pay in order to achieve a better position. Hiring at the majors never had anything to do with fairness, although why respect the picket line at another airline if the current rules say that airline can put your's out of busines. It's every man for himself nowdays and we ain't seen the bottom yet. After deregulation, a little start up in Texas managed to grow to such an extent that they changed the whole paradiem. They were willing to work longer hours for less. Thus,,,in order to compete,,, "YOU" will work longer hours for less.

 

[UALRATT]

Um, you're incorrect. My halting career was a result of bad economic times, and some financial problems at my carrier. No one knows who is going to survive and who isn't.

You're trying the old attack of suggesting that bad luck in one's career is the fault of the pilot.

Point is, I'm right. Lots of guys are going to work for less, and if your highness is displeased with the wages offered, I suggest you find a new royal line of work.

My professionalism is measured by my standards of airmanship, dedication to professionalism, and the positive feedback from my co-workers and supervisors.

Apparently for you, the dollar signs determine one's professionalism.

Well, whatever.

The marketplace is the marketplace. I'll ask for as much pay as I can get, and decide if it is enough for me.

What is nauseating is people like you who put some artificial pay rate on yourself and decide that anything less is 'demeaning'.

I can only hope that your airmanship matches your ego and sense of entitlement. If so, congrats.

Fascinating to note that with your professionalism you can save a doomed airplane from falling from the sky, yet you have such low self esteem and self worth for the profession that says you can in the first place. Economy? financial problems? That's an ANCIENT story affecting all walks of life.Not just our aviation. You, and I, keep losing our jobs because it's going to the lowest bidder, the same system that YOU so swear by. With your professed knowledge of the "market place" maybe it time that you support an industry devoid of regulations not just related the sale of the seats, cargo space and routes. Fact is we can't do that because of our irresponsible society (acceptable hull loss rates, over working and under paying people, disregarding maintenance, shelving training, etc.). Besides, what can you 'livin'thesim" really "ask for" as you so eloquently put it? NOTHING!! You are weak and isolated enough to accept it, whatever "it" happens to be because they have convinced you that your value is worthless.

Bro, since the advent of commercial avaition companies have come and gone but the pilot profession somehow lives on because there are a few good men and women who believe in it and kept fighting, and yes, there were men with your weak heart back then. With headwinds and undercurrents like you, that progressively becomes more difficult. The fire that's burning you is the one that your attitude continue to fuel.

What others are promoting here regarding the value of a profession that you and I just happen to be holding today, represents another element of the subject of the thread. Professionalism extends well beyond the cockpit, the dearth of which destroys the respect of our profession.

 

[Linedriver]

Can't blame the man for his willingness to accept less pay in order to achieve a better position. Hiring at the majors never had anything to do with fairness, although why respect the picket line at another airline if the current rules say that airline can put your's out of busines. It's every man for himself nowdays and we ain't seen the bottom yet. After deregulation, a little start up in Texas managed to grow to such an extent that they changed the whole paradiem. They were willing to work longer hours for less. Thus,,,in order to compete,,, "YOU" will work longer hours for less.

You are exactly right. I'm sure he is a great guy and don't blame him at all for going for it - the hiring isn't fair at all and really kind of boils down to the chemistry of the day. But, IF that is where you want to be, you have to play THAT game.

There is always a better way to skin-a-cat and that little start up has done it. Remember when their pay was discounted and now they are the leaders? And probably their culture has taken them further than anything else.

 

[Linedriver]

Fascinating to note that with your professionalism you can save a doomed airplane from falling from the sky, yet you have such low self esteem and self worth for the profession that says you can in the first place. Economy? financial problems? That's an ANCIENT story affecting all walks of life.Not just our aviation. You, and I, keep losing our jobs because it's going to the lowest bidder, the same system that YOU so swear by. With your professed knowledge of the "market place" maybe it time that you support an industry devoid of regulations not just related the sale of the seats, cargo space and routes. Fact is we can't do that because of our irresponsible society (acceptable hull loss rates, over working and under paying people, disregarding maintenance, shelving training, etc.). Besides, what can you 'livin'thesim" really "ask for" as you so eloquently put it? NOTHING!! You are weak and isolated enough to accept it, whatever "it" happens to be because they have convinced you that your value is worthless.

Bro, since the advent of commercial avaition companies have come and gone but the pilot profession somehow lives on because there are a few good men and women who believe in it and kept fighting, and yes, there were men with your weak heart back then. With headwinds and undercurrents like you, that progressively becomes more difficult. The fire that's burning you is the one that your attitude continue to fuel.

What others are promoting here regarding the value of a profession that you and I just happen to be holding today, represents another element of the subject of the thread. Professionalism extends well beyond the cockpit, the dearth of which destroys the respect of our profession.

Dude! Simma-down-now!

 

[UALRATT]

Dude! Simma-down-now!

Nah, nah, not yet Chief. This discussion is NOT about accepting a low paying job. That's a fact of life. Being an advocate for lowering the bar is a different story. Good guys don't encourage stealing from other's plates. You deal with the low pay like the intelligent person you are. And BTW, How could "Life is good, life is fine !!!" translate to "hiring is not fair". Regardless of the industry getting a job has nothing to do with fairness. The nature of the beast wherever you go. Not just in aviation. Delta, Boeing, the U.S. Airforce, GM, Morgan Stanley, McDonald's, you name it. You've got one job to get. Because it may not be your first choice doesn't mean it's unfair. What matters is trying to encourage others to realise the VALUE in what they are doing and not just riding the bow wave of other's efforts.
Yeah! I had my first choice and I'm now sitting on my second furloughed, from the same company.