So now we are not professional...

[IBNAV8R]

Can't blame the man for his willingness to accept less pay in order to achieve a better position. Hiring at the majors never had anything to do with fairness, although why respect the picket line at another airline if the current rules say that airline can put your's out of busines. It's every man for himself nowdays and we ain't seen the bottom yet. After deregulation, a little start up in Texas managed to grow to such an extent that they changed the whole paradiem. They were willing to work longer hours for less. Thus,,,in order to compete,,, "YOU" will work longer hours for less.

Just think it's kind of ironic, that these folks, once looked down upon, for working harder for less, are now making more than anyone else flying similar and often bigger equipment.

 

[Linedriver]

Nah, nah, not yet Chief. This discussion is NOT about accepting a low paying job. That's a fact of life. Being an advocate for lowering the bar is a different story. Good guys don't encourage stealing from other's plates. You deal with the low pay like the intelligent person you are. And BTW, How could "Life is good, life is fine !!!" translate to "hiring is not fair". Regardless of the industry getting a job has nothing to do with fairness. The nature of the beast wherever you go. Not just in aviation. Delta, Boeing, the U.S. Airforce, GM, Morgan Stanley, McDonald's, you name it. You've got one job to get. Because it may not be your first choice doesn't mean it's unfair. What matters is trying to encourage others to realise the VALUE in what they are doing and not just riding the bow wave of other's efforts.
Yeah! I had my first choice and I'm now sitting on my second furloughed, from the same company.

No where in any of my posts have I been an 'advocate for lowering the bar' or 'encouraged stealing from other's plates'. Where did you get that?

As far as the hiring not being fair - I'm sure several would agree that sometimes its a mystery why a particular pilot gets hired and another is not.

 

[livin'thesim]

I am willing to work for market price. I am not going to go into an interview and suggest that I work for lower than current market price.

The pay and benefits are going in reverse in the industry because of the supply of pilots, not because of pilots' lack of resolve.

My self-esteem is just fine, thanks. I could go out on a limb and suggest that your self-esteem seems to be highly vulnerable to your compensation level.

There is more to life than money. I'll get as much as I can, but I am not going to refuse a job that pays an acceptable wage just because some guy on flightinfo thinks I should.

I suspect that what most of the bar-raisers really want is for the rest of us to go away, so that they have no competition at their desired wage.

What place do you or anyone else have to tell me how to esteem myself or for what wage I should be willing to work?

All markets have a clearing price, and the oversupply of pilots has lowered that price.

Pilot jobs are not immune to the laws of supply and demand, no matter how badly elite-minded aviators would like them to be.

When the pilot profession raises the difficulty level of getting a certificate, or ALPA regulates the issuance of ATPs, then you will see rising wages.

Take one for the team you say? Okay. But what is the team willing to GUARANTEE me for taking the hit.

You make no guarantees, I take no hits. Simple.

In the end, the discussion is moot, since market forces WILL have the effect they always do, and a market price for pilot labor will be set. So we're only arguing about what I say will happen, and what you say should happen.

Sure, I'd love it if you guys all decided to be investment bankers,l leaving me the only pilot left, in which case I could earn millions flying airplanes. But as soon as you did, I'd have competition.

 

[pipejockey]

If you want to be perceived and ultimately treated like a pro, the first step is to behave like one.

Okay, How?

Know your airplane.
Know the procedures.
Stay current at ALL levels of automation.
Treat your crew with respect.
Treat the gate agents and other employee groups with respect.
Show up on time.
Use sick time for when you're sick.
Wear the uniform correctly.
Put away the laptop, ipod, USA Today and paperbacks while you're flying.

Just a thought...

Oh yeah? If you are a pilot you would know this is far easier said than done! These gate agents have been given far too much authority, and they take that extra authority, coupled with the frustrations of their daily dealings with passengers, and take it out on the pilots. I for one am sick of it! I will only speak as few words as possible with those creeps as necessary to get my job done and get the hell away from them.

They seem to go out of their way to humiliate, belittle, demean and question the authority of pilots while at the same time, making sure they flaunt their authority over anything and everything gate related, rubbing our noses in it in front of the passengers. It is as if you have to click your heels like a good little Nazi Soldier and bow in servitude to them just to get the jetbridge door opened so you can get to your aircraft. The fact that I as a pilot, needs to be allowed to the aircraft so I can do my job, is totally beyond question, an outrage. And don't dare you ask an agent who is not working the flight or gate you are need of being opened to come over and let you down. They will promptly relish in talking down to you in a voice loud enough for most of the passengers in the gate area to hear. Making you do a walk of shame to the jetbridge door.
They are the most rude, belligerent, arrogant, obnoxious wastes of space I have had the misfortune of having to put up with in any job I have ever had, in or out of aviation. For years I have tried to stay cordial with them, but no more. You want to start talking about people in need of some instruction on professionalism, then look no further than these horrid gate agents.

 

[Linedriver]

I am willing to work for market price. I am not going to go into an interview and suggest that I work for lower than current market price.

The pay and benefits are going in reverse in the industry because of the supply of pilots, not because of pilots' lack of resolve.

My self-esteem is just fine, thanks. I could go out on a limb and suggest that your self-esteem seems to be highly vulnerable to your compensation level.

There is more to life than money. I'll get as much as I can, but I am not going to refuse a job that pays an acceptable wage just because some guy on flightinfo thinks I should.

I suspect that what most of the bar-raisers really want is for the rest of us to go away, so that they have no competition at their desired wage.

What place do you or anyone else have to tell me how to esteem myself or for what wage I should be willing to work?

All markets have a clearing price, and the oversupply of pilots has lowered that price.

Pilot jobs are not immune to the laws of supply and demand, no matter how badly elite-minded aviators would like them to be.

When the pilot profession raises the difficulty level of getting a certificate, or ALPA regulates the issuance of ATPs, then you will see rising wages.

Take one for the team you say? Okay. But what is the team willing to GUARANTEE me for taking the hit.

You make no guarantees, I take no hits. Simple.

In the end, the discussion is moot, since market forces WILL have the effect they always do, and a market price for pilot labor will be set. So we're only arguing about what I say will happen, and what you say should happen.

Sure, I'd love it if you guys all decided to be investment bankers,l leaving me the only pilot left, in which case I could earn millions flying airplanes. But as soon as you did, I'd have competition.

There is always a pilot who will do it for less. ALWAYS.

 

[livin'thesim]

Yep, that's true. And if one takes my job away, that is just the way the world works.

The trick is to be more valuable than the guy who wants to take your job. Not enough emphasis is being put on creating a work force with high professional standards, and the PR work to go with it.

It is not enough to attempt to defend what you have. You must defend it with methods that work. Simply suggesting that everyone hold out for higher pay has proven to be a fruitless tactic. Time to change methods. The 1500 hour requirement is a move in the right direction.

Raise the standards, and the pay will come with it.

 

[Linedriver]

Yep, that's true. And if one takes my job away, that is just the way the world works.

The trick is to be more valuable than the guy who wants to take your job. Not enough emphasis is being put on creating a work force with high professional standards, and the PR work to go with it.

It is not enough to attempt to defend what you have. You must defend it with methods that work. Simply suggesting that everyone hold out for higher pay has proven to be a fruitless tactic. Time to change methods. The 1500 hour requirement is a move in the right direction.

Raise the standards, and the pay will come with it.

You are exactly right.

 

[waveflyer]

And politically, how do we raise standards?

By voting for Republicans?

Where do we, as pilots, get the political leverage to get proper regulation of our career?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And politically, how do we raise standards?

By voting for Republicans?

Where do we, as pilots, get the political leverage to get proper regulation of our career?

political leverage and grassroot movements (unified pilot group)...... are the only two ways.......

 

[Bringupthebird]

Professionalism began it's decline with the rise of egalitarianism at airlines like Southwest, People's Express and America West. Pilot's were told they weren't too good to be cross-utilized, to clean the airplane and that they were an equal cog in the machine, no better than anyone else.

But they are more highly qualified than every other employee in the airline. They are hired due to a special combination of skill, experience and temperment. After years of conditioning that they really are just another labor group, they begin to think it and those qualities that made them suitable to be pilots are both no longer valued, nor are they brought to the profession. They played the 'Awe shucks, I'm a heavy equipment operator" role so long that they began to believe it themselves.

Pilots should earn the respect they deserve by holding their profession in esteem themselves first. It should be them that proves that they do a job that not everyone can or should do, regardless of the dumbing down of the equipment they fly.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Professionalism began it's decline with the rise of egalitarianism at airlines like Southwest, People's Express and America West. Pilot's were told they weren't too good to be cross-utilized, to clean the airplane and that they were an equal cog in the machine, no better than anyone else.

But they are more highly qualified than every other employee in the airline. They are hired due to a special combination of skill, experience and temperment. After years of conditioning that they really are just another labor group, they begin to think it and those qualities that made them suitable to be pilots are both no longer valued, nor are they brought to the profession. They played the 'Awe shucks, I'm a heavy equipment operator" role so long that they began to believe it themselves.

Pilots should earn the respect they deserve by holding their profession in esteem themselves first. It should be them that proves that they do a job that not everyone can or should do, regardless of the dumbing down of the equipment they fly.

Close, consider this....


Those companies and most companies don't really have a stake in pilot professionalism.... If they can cross train pilots to clean lavs they will do it... the endless pursuit to lower costs. For some reason pilots assume for themselves that everyone values the profession... why wouldn't they, I mean after all, we are Air Line Pilots!

In addition in the post golden age, the Harvard MBAs running the airlines instead of the Sixs, Pattersons and Cords, real airline men, don't understand flight crews and think pilots are over rated.... Sully helped reinstate us, and just as quickly the MSP Fly (over) Boys took it away....

You can't expect airlines, govt or industry to be custodians of the Air Line Pilot profession.

One of the facets of professionals as defined by the FAA is a code of ethics. Unions pilots who don't have a code would be wise to get some... non union pilots..... well, that is another thread....

 

[livin'thesim]

3000 to be 121 PIC.

1500 hours, and ATP, and type rating to be SIC.

Rigorous training and checkrides.

You PFT, ALPA refuses your membership.

No ALPA, no airline job.

Just a few ideas.


To clear a few things up - I have no opposition to unions using such methods to ensure that compensation remains high for pilots.


I have a HUGE FREAKING PROBLEM with union pilots thinking that the same tactics that failed before will work again.

Guarantee me my proper place in line, and I will refuse to work for lower wages.

However, if the only thing you can offer me is your 'respect' that I 'held the line' on pay, then it's every man for himself.

Pilot unions' current methods are aiding management's divide and conquer strategy, whether they know it or not.

 

[JoeMerchant]

And politically, how do we raise standards?

By voting for Republicans?

Keep in mind that it was Jimmy Carter who signed the Deregulation Act of 1978 which led to the drop in revenue at the airlines. Your beloved Democratic Party wants cheap airfares for the average Joe....

In addition, some of us believe that the policies of the Democrats will lead to a weaker economy and thus even less revenue for us to bargain for....All the collective bargaining in the world can't overcome declining revenue and companies that lose money...

First things first...You need a successful profitable company before you go to the table demanding a bigger piece of the pie.....If the pie shrinks....Your piece will shrink too...If the pie goes away...so does your piece of it....

 

[tomgoodman]

Cord?!!

...the Harvard MBAs running the airlines instead of the Sixs, Pattersons and Cords, real airline men, don't understand flight crews and think pilots are over rated...

Rez,

You make a valid point, but your inclusion of Cord in that list is rather shocking. "Flying the Line" devotes an entire chapter to his anti-pilot, union-busting, strikebreaking attempts at Century Airlines. He was one of the worst enemies ALPA has ever faced.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

You make a valid point, but your inclusion of Cord in that list is rather shocking. "Flying the Line" devotes an entire chapter to his anti-pilot, union-busting, strikebreaking attempts at Century Airlines. He was one of the worst enemies ALPA has ever faced.

Good call, I meant CR Smith