So now we are not professional...

[livin'thesim]

As someone who has spent years bouncing around on the bottom end of the food chain in aviation, spent a long time furloughed, and did a stint in the regionals and for dirtbag 135 operators, I can tell you that anyone at a major airline who wants to complain about being treated poorly is just whining. *Sob*, "bus-driver', *sob*, "dignity, self-respect", *sniffle, sniffle*.

If you need the airline to bend to your every whim before you are suitably motivated to do a good job, then get out of the cockpit. If your self-esteem is that fragile, then you are a just a nancy.


Be advised that there are thousands of guys like me who would gladly do your job for less money and a have a better attitude about it.

The usual response is that I should show some 'self-respect', and demand 'good treatment'. Hehe. Okay. Problem is, one man's greivous mistreatment is another man's d**m good job!

So step aside then, and allow guys like me to do that cruddy job for you, since you are so degraded and insulted.

That will give you plenty of time to sit at home in front of the mirror with a bottle of lotion "respecting" yourself.

 

[wms]

We are each responsible for our own professionalism. Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is watching, and a person's character is defined by whether or not they do the right thing, even when it's not the easiest way. Self-discipline, diligence, and attention-to-detail are important in how we do our job.

However, professionalism has suffered in our industry. Anyone who's been in it for more than a few years can see the difference.

For the last decade airline managements have been successful in degrading our profession. They have pitted pilot groups against each other through whip-sawing. They have pitted employee groups against each other by lying to one group about the others. They tell schedulers and dispatchers that flight crews are the enemy of the company. They've rebid all the ground positions to lower-paid contractors and say it's because we're paid too much. They've given us more responsibity and less control of our environment. We ask for catering, fuel or cabin service and rampers tell us to get lost. Even pax feed off this and have no regard for the scope of the flightcrew's job.

And then the airlines and pax complain when when we are not effective at doing our job or display the effects poor morale and a beaten-down attitude.

Even ALPA has had a large part in this. Beginning with Babbitt, they have driven a social wedge between the layers of our profession. As a result we don't even respect each other. How are we going to gain the respect of mgmt, fellow employees or the flying public if we treat each other with contempt? And Skiles, even though he's correct about the competence of the Colgan 3407 crew, fuels the fire by casting all non-major pilots in the same light. Funny he didn't paint NW188 or the DAL taxiway pilots with the same brush.

Now Babbitt, who shares responsibility for starting much of this, has the gall to say he is concerned about our lack of professionalism. But the fact is we are responsible for ourselves and our profession. NO ONE is on our side. Not our employers, co-workers, ALPA, or the flying public. We need to be the ultimate professionals, even in adversity, and prove we're worth the pay and respect we deserve, and then fight for it.

 

[Dizel8]

Be advised that there are thousands of guys like me who would gladly do your job for less money and a have a better attitude about it.

As someone who has experienced the same as you, I find your attitude despicable, but maybe you can make this job not worth having!

 

[Linedriver]

We are each responsible for our own professionalism. Integrity is doing the right thing when no one is watching, and a person's character is defined by whether or not they do the right thing, even when it's not the easiest way. Self-discipline, diligence, and attention-to-detail are important in how we do our job.

However, professionalism has suffered in our industry. Anyone who's been in it for more than a few years can see the difference.

For the last decade airline managements have been successful in degrading our profession. They have pitted pilot groups against each other through whip-sawing. They have pitted employee groups against each other by lying to one group about the others. They tell schedulers and dispatchers that flight crews are the enemy of the company. They've rebid all the ground positions to lower-paid contractors and say it's because we're paid too much. They've given us more responsibity and less control of our environment. We ask for catering, fuel or cabin service and rampers tell us to get lost. Even pax feed off this and have no regard for the scope of the flightcrew's job.

And then the airlines and pax complain when when we are not effective at doing our job or display the effects poor morale and a beaten-down attitude.

Even ALPA has had a large part in this. Beginning with Babbitt, they have driven a social wedge between the layers of our profession. As a result we don't even respect each other. How are we going to gain the respect of mgmt, fellow employees or the flying public if we treat each other with contempt? And Skiles, even though he's correct about the competence of the Colgan 3407 crew, fuels the fire by casting all non-major pilots in the same light. Funny he didn't paint NW188 or the DAL taxiway pilots with the same brush.

Now Babbitt, who shares responsibility for starting much of this, has the gall to say he is concerned about our lack of professionalism. But the fact is we are responsible for ourselves and our profession. NO ONE is on our side. Not our employers, co-workers, ALPA, or the flying public. We need to be the ultimate professionals, even in adversity, and prove we're worth the pay and respect we deserve, and then fight for it.

Very well said.

 

[livin'thesim]

As someone who has experienced the same as you, I find your attitude despicable, but maybe you can make this job not worth having!

You despise me because I won't refuse a job to push pay up?

If you want 120k and I'll work for 90k, who are you to tell me what salary I should be willing to accept? Maybe 90k feels like a million dollars to me.

Maybe it is not all about the money. If I have a decent schedule and acceptable pay, I'll take the job. I'm sorry that the whole world isn't willing to help enforce a cartel.

It's called freedom. Freedom for me to decide the wage I'm willing to work for.

Simple economics.

I would never cross a picket line, of course. But if a new company was starting up and they offered me 60k for right seat in an Airbus, I'd take it. It's better than what I have now.

We must accept reality - a currently enormous oversupply of pilots is going to make wage gains challenging.

 

[maru657]

Yes, you are treated like busdrivers, have been since de-regulation. More hours, but less pay. Mom and pop hotels. The pensions are going along with the hope of a stable retirement. As a representative asked during the hearings regarding the Colgain Air crash after the flt ops stooge said, "We expect our pilots to exhibit professional behavior". "Sir, are professionals expected to live on 16K per year'. So you may continue to see a lapse of professional behavior especially when bending over in the TSA line. Regarding that, a friend said,"well, since FedEx". My thought was it's a good thing jumpseaters are not around any accessable weapons, like crash axes.

 

[UALRATT]

You despise me because I won't refuse a job to push pay up?

If you want 120k and I'll work for 90k, who are you to tell me what salary I should be willing to accept? Maybe 90k feels like a million dollars to me.

Maybe it is not all about the money. If I have a decent schedule and acceptable pay, I'll take the job. I'm sorry that the whole world isn't willing to help enforce a cartel.

It's called freedom. Freedom for me to decide the wage I'm willing to work for.

Simple economics.

I would never cross a picket line, of course. But if a new company was starting up and they offered me 60k for right seat in an Airbus, I'd take it. It's better than what I have now.

We must accept reality - a currently enormous oversupply of pilots is going to make wage gains challenging.

Nooo wonder you are as you say "...someone who has spent years bouncing around on the bottom end of the food chain in aviation, spent a long time furloughed, and did a stint in the regionals and for dirtbag 135 operators".

Food for thought: Your fortunes might just change if you joined in to raise the profession back to its rightful place among professions. It's a struggle that's as old as the wilber and orville, and now its your turn to hold the wheel, not drop an anchor in tow.

 

[waveflyer]

If you want higher wages. Support politicians who support unions. AND support your own union. And act in a way that supports the industry. IE: Support getting rid of 1st year pay at your airline.

I've given this dissertation before. We do NOT get paid a free market wage.... b/c we are not FREE. Seniority ties the free hand of competition. There is virtually no competition between carriers to hold onto talent. No matter how good i am at this work, i cannot go to a competing carrier- offer up my resume, and receive higher wages or responsibility. BC of this and the insane tradition of 1st year pay, for the vast majority of us it is an irresponsible choice to leave any competing carrier once we accrue any form of seniority.

Until we can interchange companies without a devastating financial and QOL hit to our lives, can we dispense with the supply and demand crap. It takes 1500 hours to hold an ATP and most of us are pretty good by that amount of flight time. There is no supply problem and there rarely has been any correlation to pilot wages and supply. What our pay is tied to is the strength of our UNIONS.

 

[livin'thesim]

Nooo wonder you are as you say "...someone who has spent years bouncing around on the bottom end of the food chain in aviation, spent a long time furloughed, and did a stint in the regionals and for dirtbag 135 operators".

Food for thought: Your fortunes might just change if you joined in to raise the profession back to its rightful place among professions. It's a struggle that's as old as the wilber and orville, and now its your turn to hold the wheel, not drop an anchor in tow.

Um, you're incorrect. My halting career was a result of bad economic times, and some financial problems at my carrier. No one knows who is going to survive and who isn't.

You're trying the old attack of suggesting that bad luck in one's career is the fault of the pilot.

Point is, I'm right. Lots of guys are going to work for less, and if your highness is displeased with the wages offered, I suggest you find a new royal line of work.

My professionalism is measured by my standards of airmanship, dedication to professionalism, and the positive feedback from my co-workers and supervisors.

Apparently for you, the dollar signs determine one's professionalism.

Well, whatever.

The marketplace is the marketplace. I'll ask for as much pay as I can get, and decide if it is enough for me.

What is nauseating is people like you who put some artificial pay rate on yourself and decide that anything less is 'demeaning'.

I can only hope that your airmanship matches your ego and sense of entitlement. If so, congrats.

 

[Linedriver]

Um, you're incorrect. My halting career was a result of bad economic times, and some financial problems at my carrier. No one knows who is going to survive and who isn't.

You're trying the old attack of suggesting that bad luck in one's career is the fault of the pilot.

Point is, I'm right. Lots of guys are going to work for less, and if your highness is displeased with the wages offered, I suggest you find a new royal line of work.

My professionalism is measured by my standards of airmanship, dedication to professionalism, and the positive feedback from my co-workers and supervisors.

Apparently for you, the dollar signs determine one's professionalism.

Well, whatever.

The marketplace is the marketplace. I'll ask for as much pay as I can get, and decide if it is enough for me.

What is nauseating is people like you who put some artificial pay rate on yourself and decide that anything less is 'demeaning'.

I can only hope that your airmanship matches your ego and sense of entitlement. If so, congrats.

Hey man, don't mean to dog pile you here but UALRAT is right. For the most part airline salaries have remained constant over the past 20 years while all other salaries in all other industries have risen. And by the time you add inflation that means backwards progress. This industry has suffered much.

I understand your position but what we need in the airline industry is team players and you are willing to undercut your team members. We have to strive to build this industry back up, not tear it down further. If that happens it will just turn out to be another 'dirtbag' industry for pilots.

I'm afraid he's right about getting back in too. Your attitude will come across in an interview and it's over.

Just sayin'.

 

[maru657]

Can't blame the man for his willingness to accept less pay in order to achieve a better position. Hiring at the majors never had anything to do with fairness, although why respect the picket line at another airline if the current rules say that airline can put your's out of busines. It's every man for himself nowdays and we ain't seen the bottom yet. After deregulation, a little start up in Texas managed to grow to such an extent that they changed the whole paradiem. They were willing to work longer hours for less. Thus,,,in order to compete,,, "YOU" will work longer hours for less.

 

[UALRATT]

Um, you're incorrect. My halting career was a result of bad economic times, and some financial problems at my carrier. No one knows who is going to survive and who isn't.

You're trying the old attack of suggesting that bad luck in one's career is the fault of the pilot.

Point is, I'm right. Lots of guys are going to work for less, and if your highness is displeased with the wages offered, I suggest you find a new royal line of work.

My professionalism is measured by my standards of airmanship, dedication to professionalism, and the positive feedback from my co-workers and supervisors.

Apparently for you, the dollar signs determine one's professionalism.

Well, whatever.

The marketplace is the marketplace. I'll ask for as much pay as I can get, and decide if it is enough for me.

What is nauseating is people like you who put some artificial pay rate on yourself and decide that anything less is 'demeaning'.

I can only hope that your airmanship matches your ego and sense of entitlement. If so, congrats.

Fascinating to note that with your professionalism you can save a doomed airplane from falling from the sky, yet you have such low self esteem and self worth for the profession that says you can in the first place. Economy? financial problems? That's an ANCIENT story affecting all walks of life.Not just our aviation. You, and I, keep losing our jobs because it's going to the lowest bidder, the same system that YOU so swear by. With your professed knowledge of the "market place" maybe it time that you support an industry devoid of regulations not just related the sale of the seats, cargo space and routes. Fact is we can't do that because of our irresponsible society (acceptable hull loss rates, over working and under paying people, disregarding maintenance, shelving training, etc.). Besides, what can you 'livin'thesim" really "ask for" as you so eloquently put it? NOTHING!! You are weak and isolated enough to accept it, whatever "it" happens to be because they have convinced you that your value is worthless.

Bro, since the advent of commercial avaition companies have come and gone but the pilot profession somehow lives on because there are a few good men and women who believe in it and kept fighting, and yes, there were men with your weak heart back then. With headwinds and undercurrents like you, that progressively becomes more difficult. The fire that's burning you is the one that your attitude continue to fuel.

What others are promoting here regarding the value of a profession that you and I just happen to be holding today, represents another element of the subject of the thread. Professionalism extends well beyond the cockpit, the dearth of which destroys the respect of our profession.

 

[Linedriver]

Can't blame the man for his willingness to accept less pay in order to achieve a better position. Hiring at the majors never had anything to do with fairness, although why respect the picket line at another airline if the current rules say that airline can put your's out of busines. It's every man for himself nowdays and we ain't seen the bottom yet. After deregulation, a little start up in Texas managed to grow to such an extent that they changed the whole paradiem. They were willing to work longer hours for less. Thus,,,in order to compete,,, "YOU" will work longer hours for less.

You are exactly right. I'm sure he is a great guy and don't blame him at all for going for it - the hiring isn't fair at all and really kind of boils down to the chemistry of the day. But, IF that is where you want to be, you have to play THAT game.

There is always a better way to skin-a-cat and that little start up has done it. Remember when their pay was discounted and now they are the leaders? And probably their culture has taken them further than anything else.

 

[Linedriver]

Fascinating to note that with your professionalism you can save a doomed airplane from falling from the sky, yet you have such low self esteem and self worth for the profession that says you can in the first place. Economy? financial problems? That's an ANCIENT story affecting all walks of life.Not just our aviation. You, and I, keep losing our jobs because it's going to the lowest bidder, the same system that YOU so swear by. With your professed knowledge of the "market place" maybe it time that you support an industry devoid of regulations not just related the sale of the seats, cargo space and routes. Fact is we can't do that because of our irresponsible society (acceptable hull loss rates, over working and under paying people, disregarding maintenance, shelving training, etc.). Besides, what can you 'livin'thesim" really "ask for" as you so eloquently put it? NOTHING!! You are weak and isolated enough to accept it, whatever "it" happens to be because they have convinced you that your value is worthless.

Bro, since the advent of commercial avaition companies have come and gone but the pilot profession somehow lives on because there are a few good men and women who believe in it and kept fighting, and yes, there were men with your weak heart back then. With headwinds and undercurrents like you, that progressively becomes more difficult. The fire that's burning you is the one that your attitude continue to fuel.

What others are promoting here regarding the value of a profession that you and I just happen to be holding today, represents another element of the subject of the thread. Professionalism extends well beyond the cockpit, the dearth of which destroys the respect of our profession.

Dude! Simma-down-now!

 

[UALRATT]

Dude! Simma-down-now!

Nah, nah, not yet Chief. This discussion is NOT about accepting a low paying job. That's a fact of life. Being an advocate for lowering the bar is a different story. Good guys don't encourage stealing from other's plates. You deal with the low pay like the intelligent person you are. And BTW, How could "Life is good, life is fine !!!" translate to "hiring is not fair". Regardless of the industry getting a job has nothing to do with fairness. The nature of the beast wherever you go. Not just in aviation. Delta, Boeing, the U.S. Airforce, GM, Morgan Stanley, McDonald's, you name it. You've got one job to get. Because it may not be your first choice doesn't mean it's unfair. What matters is trying to encourage others to realise the VALUE in what they are doing and not just riding the bow wave of other's efforts.
Yeah! I had my first choice and I'm now sitting on my second furloughed, from the same company.