SKYWEST to PAY 4.8 MILLION FOR MOVE

[catIIIc]

I am so glad I left that mess. Good luck guys.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Dave,

This may come as a shock but I am one ASA pilot who tends to agree that neither DOH nor Staple is fair.

If we ever did merge the pilot lists we would only know that it worked if both groups were equally unhappy at the result!

I will say though that a merger of the list should be the most important thing for everyone, Skywest and ASA, because until we do merge you can rest assured that quality of life can and will change at a moments notice, as management plays one group off against the other.

It is ASA today and could well be Skywest tomorrow that is on the receiving end of that beating.

LegalALien
ASA 50 seat Captain

Actually it doesn't come as a shock at all. I'm fairly confident that the vast majority of ASA pilots are reasonable and levelheaded professionals. I also doubt that there are too many SKYW pilots that feel a staple is fair or realistic. Somewhere in the middle lies a solution that neither group would be real happy with yet it would be somewhat fair.

You guys might need to find a shed to take a certain captain behind and explain why even talking about denying jumpseats is a bad idea.

 

[scarlet]

I think we can be adult--well not many on the web-boards are adults b/c all they do is find neg. things to say about each other...and these people are raising kids...uuummmhhhh

Well Skywest could save money by forming one airline, don't you think??? DOH is just the logical thing to do--as you nor I had anything to do when we were born and got to start training for this great job...as you had NO control of getting hired on that day---and what if MESA comes in and buys all of us--what would you say???? I don't care where I fall, but OUR company would save a boat load of money on salaries health care 401k contributions back ground checks....

 

[txpilot1974]

Somewhere in the middle lies a solution that neither group would be real happy with yet it would be somewhat fair.

I agree. When this merger hits many pilots in both the ASA and the SkyWest groups will get the shaft. Sometimes life plops a big fat turd on your plate and you have no chioce but to pick up the fork and eat it. I for one am not looking forward to mine.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Well Skywest could save money by forming one airline, don't you think??? DOH is just the logical thing to do--as you nor I had anything to do when we were born and got to start training for this great job...as you had NO control of getting hired on that day---and what if MESA comes in and buys all of us--what would you say???? I don't care where I fall, but OUR company would save a boat load of money on salaries health care 401k contributions back ground checks....

Last I checked we're pilots and not airline economists or accountants. Actually I'm not sure if you're really a pilot but that's besides the point. Your theory does not take into account the training costs involved with an integration. Right now you have two separate FOM's and SOP's. One isn't better than the other but you do have differences. The FAA will require everyone to spend some time in class and possibly sim to get with the new program. Much of the backoffice stuff is already being combined according to SEC filed reports and public statements made by SkyWest officials. So much of what you're talking about has already occurred or is in progress.

Tell you what. When you get the America West pilots endorsing DOH for their deal with Airways then I'll sign on. How do you think that would go over? It's hard to believe we have a dues paying ALPA member that just doesn't understand why DOH isn't going to happen and if it did would be biased heavily in favor of ASA. Why should ASA pilots come out ahead of SkyWest pilots?

Like I told someone else you really need to talk to some of your MEC officers and have them explain the ALPA merger manual to you. What you really need to get clued in on is career expectations. And ask yourself what could you have reasonably expected if no merger had occurred. Even some of your fellow pilots have said DOH would not be a fair integration. Here's an excerpt from an earlier post.

An equitable merger protocol would take these factors into account and preserve career expectations.

1. Average ASA pilot is more senior than average SKYW pilot
2. SKYW pilots historically upgrade much faster than ASA pilots, in some cases less than 6 months and generally within 2 or 3 years

3. ASA was rescued from near certain bankruptcy
4. Prior to acquisition ASA pilots had no expectation of UAX flying
5. Prior to acquisition ASA pilots had no expectation of west coast bases
6. Prior to acquisition ASA pilots had no expectation of potential codeshare flying for partner other than DAL. SKYW actively bids for flying with other airlines according to SEC filed documents.

An equitable merger protocol would not harm SKYW pilots the way a pure DOH merger would. An equitable merger protocol would force ASA pilots to make some sort of sacrifice in exchange for the new opportunties offered. In light of the fact that ASA would be bankrupt had they not been purchased by SKYW how can any reasonable person suggest that SKYW pilots should be harmed in the aftermath of a merger? If nothing else relative seniority could be achieved. So if you have someone at the 33.6% pre-merger they are 33.6% after the merger.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

SKYW started flying codeshare for Western about 26 years ago. What you don't hear on this board is SKYW folks complaining about the loss of flying and resultant loss of income as SLC lineholders found themselves on reserve as a result of SLC flying being given to ASA.

Best regards and enjoy ATL,

another west coast fruit or nut

Dave, Actually we were completely independent 26 years ago...We didn't start the codeshare with Western as Western Express until I think 1987, maybe late '86.

 

[atrdriver]

SKYW started flying codeshare for Western about 26 years ago. What you don't hear on this board is SKYW folks complaining about the loss of flying and resultant loss of income as SLC lineholders found themselves on reserve as a result of SLC flying being given to ASA.

Best regards and enjoy ATL,

another west coast fruit or nut

Yeah, just like you didn't hear the ASA pilots bitching too much when SKW moved into DAL and took a whole lot more flying from us then we did from you when we moved into SLC.

And you missed a big one on your list.

Prior to the acquisition the SKW pilots had no expectation of suddenly getting 140 aircraft, and had no expectation of their company running 80% of DCI flying out of ATL.

You just stay in your hole dave. It's our turn now to suffer, but soon it will be yours. You are non union, and JA can pretty much so whatever he wants to you guys. As long as it benefits him to treat you guys well he will. At some point the roles will be reversed, that's just the way the whipsaw works. Personally I would like to see our pilot groups stick together and fight the whipsaw, until I hear a jackass like you talking.

 

[atrdriver]

Yes. Profits have decreased. Revenues on the other hand have increased. Do you understand the difference? Do you understand the concern about profit margins trending downward? I struggled to pass my finanacial and managerial accounting classes and quantitiative analysis was no walk in the park but this is pretty basic stuff that even a dumb guy like me can understand.

Revenue less expenses = profit
Increasing profits - good
Decreasing profits - bad
Increasing revenue and decreasing profit - bad (see previous line)

Watching someone trying to argue SKYW finances with Andy - priceless

If revenue increased 123%, then total amount of profit went up as well, even if the margin dropped by 2%. I thought you said you were good with numbers??

 

[jehtplane]

I guess I could expect a more intelligent repsonse from my 4.5 year old Australian Shepherd. Just another case of some idiot not being able to handle the truth. Those bullet points I posted are hard to argue with. So I can't be too surprised that you just picked up your toys and went off to a corner to pout. Grow up kid.

No they are not ASA is/was out west ,SLC
Yes you get the planes because of your pay rates but we won't go there
Skywest needed ASA in order to stay in the Delta business
ASA actively bids on flying also
An ASA pilots career expectations are every bit as important as a Skywest Pilots.
You are a wholly owned subsidiary of Skywest Inc, just like ASA
The ASA pilot group should not have to convince you to want to join ALPA, you should take that upon yourselves, but I think you are happy with the prospect of continuing to grow at the expense of others because of your pay and lack of union.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Wow....39 posts and not one factual and accurate answer about how a merger of the 2 lists would occur. IF Skywest Inc were to approve the merger of the lists then the Allegheny-Mohawk LPP would apply and the 2 lists would be merged in accordance with that legal precedent. Who would decide how it would occur? Well both parties would have a Merger Committee meet and ultimately both sides will disagree on how to merge the lists so it will go to a 3rd party neutral arbitrator who will make the final award. Only 1 person will be happy - the most senior pilot on the new list. Everyone else will think they got scr-wed. Remember, ALPA Merger Policy would not apply since this merger wouldn't involve 2 ALPA carriers.

-Neal

 

[FL990]

Sounds like a perfect solution to me. And the SkyWest guys and gals won't mind as long as your DOH is changed to the date SKYW bought you so your former parent company could stay in business.

Pal,

you need to get over that wet dream because it won't happen. No advantage whatsoever to a staple!

 

[buscap]

smokers

I hope everyone posting on the subject of merging the pilots group doesn't have a urinal pop quiz soon.

A pilot merger will not happen. It is in management's best interests to keep us apart. If Comair and ASA never merged, what do you think the possibility of a SKYWEST/ASA merger really is?

And by the way, this pilot VS pilot gripefest is exactly what management wants to hear. Great job cutting our own throats you Nearsighted Cracksmokin Einsteins!

Cooperation between the 2 pilot groups is our only hope for minimizing the effects of whipsaw. We can't do much about most of the whipsaw, but we should fight it when we can...together.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Dave, Actually we were completely independent 26 years ago...We didn't start the codeshare with Western as Western Express until I think 1987, maybe late '86.

What about the Pocatello flying that started back in 1980? Thought that was for Western

reference: Time Flies by Creedy

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Pal,

you need to get over that wet dream because it won't happen. No advantage whatsoever to a staple!

Pal,

You need to learn how to read things in context. The post was written in response to someone suggesting a DOH integration. Nobody with half a brain thinks that's realistic.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Dave-

Got an MBA and you think you're smarter than everyone else on this board huh? I know quite a few MBA's that couldn't do what others without MBA's have done. Unless your last name is Hawking, I'm not at all impressed with your IQ. People with GED's are entitled to have their opinions wether mispelled or not.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Dave-

Got an MBA and you think you're smarter than everyone else on this board huh? I know quite a few MBA's that couldn't do what others without MBA's have done. Unless your last name is Hawking, I'm not at all impressed with your IQ. People with GED's are entitled to have their opinions wether mispelled or not.

Did you misspell "wether" intentionally?
Obviously reading comprehension has been a struggle for you also. Where did I state that anyone wasn't entitled to an opinion? An opinion is something other than a display of ignorance.

What I tried to point out is that we've got some folks on this board that don't understand the very basic difference between revenues and profits. I don't have a problem with anyone being ignorant but when they start spouting off about how "profits have gone up 123%" when in reality they have gone down I feel compelled to say something.

I'm flattered that you presume I have an MBA but it's a faulty assumption. I do have several years of experience owning and running a business though. With pensions being all but eliminated many among us will be more reliant on 401-K returns. I'd be concerned about someone trying to pick stocks for their future if they don't understand the difference between revenues and profits.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Did you misspell "wether" intentionally?

It was an attempt at irony. Congratulations, you should now pursue MENSA.

Usually, people that take quant. analysis (aka operations research) are pursuing an MBA. That along with your acct/finance reference is what led me to assume your education.

As far as opinion is concerned: we are all entitled to them. No need to pretend that you are the next Adam Smith or Peter Drucker.

 

[bacardi]

that was great basic comedy and the guy didnt even get it.

 

[Bluto]

this is sad

I think it's pathetic that Dave comes on here posting under his real name, offering logical, well-thought out rationales (whether you agree with them or not) and all he gets in response is name-calling, and childish and irrational responses.

I'm not suggesting you have to agree with him, but you should try to listen and debate him like a prossional instead of attacking him personally. Childish behavior isn't gaining you guys any points in the eyes of SkyWest pilots.

 

[viper01]

I don't think ASA pilots are looking for any points from Skywest pilots. I do wish we could work together instead of against eachother though.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Thanks Bluto.
I'm concerned about pilots that are unable to discern the difference between revenue and profits. That could lead to some very poor choices.

I got a kick out of Irishman's comment - "No need to pretend that you are the next Adam Smith or Peter Drucker."

I joke about how I could barely pass some basic accounting classes in an undergraduate business program and the guy makes a dumba$$ remark like that. Besides Smith was the father of economics. Accounting and economics are two very different disciplines. If accountants were wrong as often as economists our markets would be in really bad shape. Too bad Drucker passed away last year. He was pretty brilliant. I think he was in his mid 90's though, so he a had a pretty good long run.

I don't mind the personal attacks. If they can't debate the facts what else are they supposed to resort to? They wouldn't be able to post a thing. They'd have to just sit there and stare at the screen.

 

[scarlet]

Dave I bet you shop at Wal-Mart and think "I don't know why Americans are losing their jobs to China"??

I am saying stop the wal-mart affect---CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP and we are better than you---a REAL AMERICAN!!!

The post is about OUR company and yes I said OUR company just wasting money--but you don't care---well with your degree you could work for Delta because they are great at making very smart business decisions...whipsaw whipsaw---who cares if we waste money and then you are bankr. REAL SMART!!!

I would think in the modern day people would want their company to strive and make money so they can give you a raise---SHARE the WEALTH--

SKYWEST save the money--MERGE the airline---I am sure you would want our senior guy flying right seat with you right---he would eat you alive---with his 25 years....

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Dave I bet you shop at Wal-Mart and think "I don't know why Americans are losing their jobs to China"??

I am saying stop the wal-mart affect---CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP and we are better than you---a REAL AMERICAN!!!

The post is about OUR company and yes I said OUR company just wasting money--but you don't care---well with your degree you could work for Delta because they are great at making very smart business decisions...whipsaw whipsaw---who cares if we waste money and then you are bankr. REAL SMART!!!

I would think in the modern day people would want their company to strive and make money so they can give you a raise---SHARE the WEALTH--

SKYWEST save the money--MERGE the airline---I am sure you would want our senior guy flying right seat with you right---he would eat you alive---with his 25 years....

Scarlet,

I give up. You have zero reading comprehension. You're mumbling about Wal-Mart which incidentally I don't patronize. None of this is remotely close to relevant. You're claiming that I'm opposed to merging the lists. Where did I say that Scarlet? All I said is that we're not airline economists or accountants. I don't pretend to know all the financial implications of a merger. You also made it obvious that you're unaware of all the back-office integration that's already occurred. The 2 airlines have already combined many functions and are saving money according to what's been publicly stated by SkyWest, Inc. managment. All I've quite plainly stated is that any list integration should be done in a fair an equitable manner. Is that what you object to? You think you should have an advantage over SKYW pilots?

Get someone to help you read my posts and then formulate a cogent response. You're sounding like a 14 year old, not a professional pilot.

 

[Bluto]

I don't think ASA pilots are looking for any points from Skywest pilots. I do wish we could work together instead of against eachother though.

Poor choice of words on my part. I know the majority of ASA pilots are more interested in working together than the lunatic fringe on this board indicates. I guess my point was, if ASA pilots are trying to encourage SkyWest pilots to unionize, threats and insults aren't the way to do it. I know it's our responsibility. I sincerely hope our pilot group makes a good choice with regard to representation, but bullying and threats aren't going to help us do it.

I'm just glad the unionized carriers get treated with respect on this board, you know groups like Mesa, CHQ, TSA, GJ, Pinnacle, etc. We all want what they've got.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Dave-

At no time did I attack you. I merely called you out for thinking you are smarter than most others on this board. But if you want to ignore my critique so that you can continue saying things like, "You're sounding like a 14 year old, not a professional pilot," then by all means.

If you can't figure out my reference to Adam Smith as it relates to accounting, then maybe you aren't as smart as you think.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Dave-

At no time did I attack you. I merely called you out for thinking you are smarter than most others on this board. But if you want to ignore my critique so that you can continue saying things like, "You're sounding like a 14 year old, not a professional pilot," then by all means.

If you can't figure out my reference to Adam Smith as it relates to accounting, then maybe you aren't as smart as you think.

Couple of points there DI.
Based on some of the drivel seen thus far I'm concerned for this county's future. Where did these guys go to school? Read Scarlet's last post. Does that sound like a professional or a high school kid? He's trying to support DOH integration saving SKYW money with a tirade about me shopping at Wal-Mart. I see a fundamental disconnect. What do you see there? If I wrote sentences like that in high school I would have got an "F" for that paper.

Let's talk about a far more interesting subject you brought up. Are we talking about the same Adam Smith? Here's a rather generic summary of his accomplishments clipped from wikipedia:


Adam Smith, FRSE (baptised June 5, 1723 – July 17, 1790) was a Scottish political economist and moral philosopher. His Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations was one of the earliest attempts to study the historical development of industry and commerce in Europe. That work helped to create the modern academic discipline of economics and provided one of the best-known intellectual rationales for free trade, capitalism and libertarianism.


I took micro and macro econ and enjoyed both classes immensely although some may argue macro-econ is more of a sociology class than anything else. And to be honest I did see some parallels between what we learned in sociology and macro-econ, IE: stratification.

Personally I see Adam Smith as more of an economic philosopher than anything else. My biased view of accounting which is due in part to the fact that I almost flunked managerial accounting, is that it's a far more rigid academic and practical endeavor. Accountants track and report data. They can manipulate the data but unless they enage in Enronesque practices the results are limited to those grounded in fact rather than theory.

So I am quite curious to explore this connection between Adam Smith and modern accounting a bit further. Perhaps your college experiences are more recent than mine and the subject is fresher for you. Feel free to PM me since this debate/discussion constitutes a terrible thread hijack. Obviously there is a connection between accounting and economics but I'm not seeing as direct a connection between Adam Smith and modern accounting practices as you are. So either we're considering the works of different Adam Smith's or I'm missing something.

 

[Mookie]

I think you need to go sailing dave....

Mookie

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I think you need to go sailing dave....

Mookie

I've got some planned! C'mon up. Taking the dinghy out tonight to see if my rerigging project came out OK or not. Looks good on the trailer but we'll see how it does on the water. Tomorrow night is some keelboat racing and some more dinghy sailing on Friday. It's supposed to really warm up today.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Dave I bet you shop at Wal-Mart and think "I don't know why Americans are losing their jobs to China"??

I am saying stop the wal-mart affect---CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP and we are better than you---a REAL AMERICAN!!!

The post is about OUR company and yes I said OUR company just wasting money--but you don't care---well with your degree you could work for Delta because they are great at making very smart business decisions...whipsaw whipsaw---who cares if we waste money and then you are bankr. REAL SMART!!!

I would think in the modern day people would want their company to strive and make money so they can give you a raise---SHARE the WEALTH--

SKYWEST save the money--MERGE the airline---I am sure you would want our senior guy flying right seat with you right---he would eat you alive---with his 25 years....

Wow 25 years???? You do realize there are flight crew members here with well over 30 years don't you??!!

 

[goodto50meters]

If Comair and ASA never merged, what do you think the possibility of a SKYWEST/ASA merger really is?

Thats because Delta management since Ron Allen has pretty much been the worst airline managers to ever hit the airline industry. What am I saying.....except ASA!

Plus, when things really started looking bad they wanted to be able to unload us and make some cash.

SkyWest management is just a bit more savvy then Delta. Sorry General.