Skywest: Confessions Of A Kool-Aid Drinker

[Stifler's Mom]

Without a union, my employer (ASA) would have imposed their concessionary wishes on me a long time ago. A 13% paycut for me would have equated to losing approximately $5,000 per year. This coming from a company that has made in the neighborhood of $40,000,000 each of the last two quarters.

I don't give two ********************s about Dwayne and the National portion of ALPA, but myself and my fellow coworkers make up the local level of ALPA, and without these guys and gals, ASA would have imposed some pretty crappy pay and work rules on me WITHOUT my input.

I've gone and listened to management preach their need for paycuts to stay competitive. I have to raise the BS flag when a company that makes millions in profits feels the need for already poorly paid employees to give money back.

I even heard Charlie Tutt say that any concessions from the pilot group would not guarantee any new airframes.

Whatever way you guys go at SKW, I sure hope it works out for the two of us. But hear this, ASA has been owned by SkyWest for 14 months now, and these same management people at ASA are being told what to do by Jerry and his guys.

In other words, the crap that they are pulling with ASA, is coming from the same people who own you as well, and may even be thrown your way in the future.

 

[Publishers]

One severe problem in today's airline world is that in order to change anything, one almost needs to be in crisis mode to start with. An example I would give, not so much a union or non-union was the reaction to September 11 and the difference between Air Tran and the major carriers. If I remember correctly, and I have no doubt I will hear immediately if wrong, Air Tran pilots got together and accepted a pay cut in lieu of layoffs.
At the time, it was obvious to all that the airline business was going to take a major hit, yet most of the carriers continued into the abyss locked into work rules and a pay stucture that says show us you are in deep trouble and maybe we will do something.
The Evergreen's of the world respond to business opportunities quickly all the time (not a rec for EZ).
In short, it is not so much the union / non union that is the issue. It is a structure and culture that is self destructive, accusatory, and where one has to be under the water before they throw you the rope.
As i pointed out, any system like this is not worth joining. Can you imagine a senior software engineer making $150k per year being recruited to another company and told they have to go back to $25k until they gain seniority. There is some feeling that things are so tough. Go ask some investment banker candidate or new attorney in a NY firm how many hours they are expected to work and what they get paid. Look at the auto workers and see how successful that is going. The Japanese and foreign automakers actually restrict their marketshare to keep the US companies in business for if they put them out, there will be legislation keeping them out. Imagine if they open the skies of this country.

 

[amcnd]

Amcnd, Could you expand on that? What is your back ground and why don't you think now is a time for ALPA at Skywest? I think those that have seen both situations can give us a lot of good information. I know there are people who have come from ALPA carriers to Skywest who believe Skywest desperatley needs ALPA and I'd like to hear their thoughts also.


Once again, thanks to everyone for all their replies and for keeping this discussion civil. I have received a couple of nice PMs with some excellent information.

Sure, I came from Eagle. I watched ALPA try to help us? but I sat back and watched 10 airplanes go to TSA, watched the APA walk all over us...Not to mention the work rules. I am so happy with the work rules and pay at SkyWest. At Eagle I flew 90 and got payed 90hrs at SkyWest fly 80 get payed 110!! Overall I am allot happier at SkyWest after 2 years, then Eagle for 6+ years.

 

[Ponchus pilot]

One severe problem in today's airline world is that in order to change anything, one almost needs to be in crisis mode to start with. An example I would give, not so much a union or non-union was the reaction to September 11 and the difference between Air Tran and the major carriers. If I remember correctly, and I have no doubt I will hear immediately if wrong, Air Tran pilots got together and accepted a pay cut in lieu of layoffs.
At the time, it was obvious to all that the airline business was going to take a major hit, yet most of the carriers continued into the abyss locked into work rules and a pay stucture that says show us you are in deep trouble and maybe we will do something.
The Evergreen's of the world respond to business opportunities quickly all the time (not a rec for EZ).
In short, it is not so much the union / non union that is the issue. It is a structure and culture that is self destructive, accusatory, and where one has to be under the water before they throw you the rope.
As i pointed out, any system like this is not worth joining. Can you imagine a senior software engineer making $150k per year being recruited to another company and told they have to go back to $25k until they gain seniority. There is some feeling that things are so tough. Go ask some investment banker candidate or new attorney in a NY firm how many hours they are expected to work and what they get paid. Look at the auto workers and see how successful that is going. The Japanese and foreign automakers actually restrict their marketshare to keep the US companies in business for if they put them out, there will be legislation keeping them out. Imagine if they open the skies of this country.

1) The majors have a different business model than Airtran and southwest.
2) You have to have seniority at airlines since you have lines with different number of days off work days and reserve. Without it a newhire would get a flying line while a 10 year guy would get reserve. Same thing with furloughs.
3) The system has been well worth joining, much better than not having a union.
4) Pilots work long hours, this has nothing to do with flight time. You would not know because you probably fly a cessna for an hour a week. Duty times of 12-14 hours happen often.
5) The automakers simply suck, that is why they are hurting, its not the union. My BMW is made by union workers in Germany with many more protections and pay than US workers. Why are they doing well then? Its because they make a fine automobile.

You obviously dont work in the industry and have no idea about how ALPA works. Many majors had to shed extra weight after 9/11, there was simply to much capacity out there. The times are changing.

 

[Grassstrippilot]

Excellent post imacdog.

 

[Morning Wood]

So tell me what you think having a union on property is doing to prevent "flexibility". If the company comes to the union as equals and respect, then there is no loss of flexibility at all. If management decides to treat the union
as an adversary, then there will be problems. But that happens whether there is a union or not. The way I read your post it sounds like the flexibility that they need is payrates, and that is just not the case.

I'll give you two examples. Delta's contract about 10 years ago prohibited reflowing of crews in their own domicile. United Shuttle crews had provisions limiting and/or prohibiting airplane swaps on the last day of their trip. How is that for flexibility? We have people now running around thinking that as soon as ALPA is on the property that airplane swaps will magically go away. If that isn't a perfect example of shortsightedness and "what can ALPA do for me", then I don't know what is.

 

[Steveair]

I don't feel ALPA is going to earn 900 dollars / year from my paycheck. The ALPA promoter FO chick called the other day to tell me how great it was that ALPA paid COMAIR pilots while they were on strike. Glad to see ALPA is doing so much for them now... The nails are in the coffin.

 

[Crossky]

I didn't know that AWAC pilots had made concessions, I thought they lost UAL flying because they wouldn't, so I stand corrected there.

Yea, many didn't know that us AWAC pilots voted for a United BK concession equivalent to a 15% cut for the CRJ pilots and more for the Bae-146 pilots. The company didn't do a good PR job in representing our sacrifices to United and the UAX carriers, and didn't pass on the savings to United. When we rebid the United flying a year after our concession went into effect, our MEC said absolutely no to considering another concession.

I mean no offense to SKW pilots, but consider that your Pilot to Pilot and management-management relations with ASA would be better if you were represented by ALPA. ALPA by-laws require that if one ALPA carrier purchases another and the pilot groups are integrated, a fair and equitable integration must take place. This in fact has occured at AWAC three times: with the purchases of Mississippi Valley, Aspen Airways, and Air Max. Although the stories go that many AWAC originals feel the integrations favored the bought party too much. Furthermore, I'm not sure if Air Max was ALPA.

I don't think it's too late for SKW to organize ALPA, and to a have a fair integration of the ASA and SKW pilot groups. That is up to the SKW pilots and management of course.

Have sympathy and respect for your fellow ASA pros: organize and integrate! You'll get proper respect from the rest of us and from your union adverse managemt.

 

[Crossky]

I didn't know that AWAC pilots had made concessions, I thought they lost UAL flying because they wouldn't, so I stand corrected there.

Yea, many didn't know that us AWAC pilots voted for a United BK concession equivalent to a 15% cut for the CRJ pilots and more for the Bae-146 pilots. The company didn't do a good PR job in representing our sacrifices to United and the UAX carriers, and didn't pass on the savings to United. When we rebid the United flying a year after our concession went into effect, our MEC said absolutely no to considering another concession.

I mean no offense to SKW pilots, but consider that your Pilot to Pilot and management-management relations with ASA would be better if you were represented by ALPA. ALPA by-laws require that if one ALPA carrier purchases another and the pilot groups are integrated, a fair and equitable integration must take place. This in fact has occured at AWAC three times: with the purchases of Mississippi Valley, Aspen Airways, and Air Max. Although the stories go that many AWAC originals feel the integrations favored the bought party too much. Furthermore, I'm not sure if Air Max was ALPA.

I don't think it's too late for SKW to organize ALPA, and to a have a fair integration of the ASA and SKW pilot groups. That is up to the SKW pilots and management of course.

Have sympathy and respect for your fellow ASA pros: organize and integrate! You'll get proper respect from the rest of us and from your union adverse managemt.

 

[goodpilotithink]

Your mgt. team works under a contract. Jerry on down. What makes you feel you, as a professional, should not have a contract?

 

[FlyingToIST]

As a new guy at SkyW I was at the Candlewood the other day. Interestingly enough those guys/gals talking about how great ALPA is had to change the subject when i asked them how ALPA helped Mesaba pilots with company declaring Ch.11 even though Mesaba was profitable.
I might be a new hire but i come with 10 years of academical and industrial work experience in airline environment; both international and domestic. I am also not a kid who is attracted to a shiny jet syndrome.
I think the collective bargaining agreements have lost their value that they had in the past. They are not as effective as clear channel of communications and great employee/employer relationships.
Those who use United/Delta argument against ALPA are not correct, because ALPA didn't write the rules of Ch.11 bankrupcy. If the pilots in those airlines didn't vote in the consessions, the airline had all the tools necessary to call the shots, it's not ALPA's fault, but it's the fault of the "system" that we live in.
Those who use Southwest as a pro-ALPA argument are not 100% correct either because Southwest was built on great employee/employer relationships. The union didn't take part on something that they already had.
Even though I agree with the sentiments of the original poster, I don't think this is the argument of PFT/non-PFT or training contract vs. non-training contract either.

If JA wants to sell the company to JO tomorrow, i have no control over that. It may happen tomorrow, it may never happen at all.I believe this airline treats their employees, customers, vendors much better than the JO's little project.

This is just a simple way of looking at the things. In my eyes I really want the vote in the company property; but my vote would be against the ALPA or any other union representation.


Happy flying anyone..

Corrected for miswording on the Mesaba thing..

 

[atrdriver]

As a new guy at SkyW I was at the Candlewood the other day. Interestingly enough those guys/gals talking about how great ALPA is had to change the subject when i asked them how ALPA helped Mesaba declare Ch.11 even though Mesaba was profitable.

ALPA didn't have anything to do with Mesaba declaring Ch 11. But ALPA did stop the company from stuffing paycuts down the pilots throat without their consent. If you want to blame a companies demise on someone, blame it on mis management, as a union has nothing to so with it.

 

[atrdriver]

I'll give you two examples. Delta's contract about 10 years ago prohibited reflowing of crews in their own domicile. United Shuttle crews had provisions limiting and/or prohibiting airplane swaps on the last day of their trip. How is that for flexibility? We have people now running around thinking that as soon as ALPA is on the property that airplane swaps will magically go away. If that isn't a perfect example of shortsightedness and "what can ALPA do for me", then I don't know what is.

Those are very rare cases. Most contracts do not limit flexibility, they simply attempt to protect the QOL of the pilots. Sometimes that is done by making the company pay more for doing certain thing, like rigs. That doesn't limit flexibility, it simply makes the company have to think a little farther into the future, which helps not only the employees, but also the company itself.

 

[embdrvr]

Interestingly enough those guys/gals talking about how great ALPA is had to change the subject when i asked them how ALPA helped Mesaba declare Ch.11 even though Mesaba was profitable.

I'm confused. How did ALPA "help" Mesaba declare bankruptcy? Did ALPA disrupt Mesaba's revenue stream or might that have been NWA? Please spell it out for us slow guys.

 

[pilotbrain]

CFIT, Does it worry you as well what might happen at SkyWest if there is a shakeup in management down the road that results in some Frank Lorenzo type getting control of SkyWest? I quess that worries me more than the scenario you posted. Without a contract someone like that could make our lives hell in a heartbeat. Good original post and thread.

If we do vote in ALPA....what would this do to the two pilot seniority lists???Asking because I have no idea.