Skywest: Confessions Of A Kool-Aid Drinker

[thebest]

According to the forward looking statement given to investors the company says they expect some or all employee groups to potentially unionize.
They would be fools not to. This is the airline industry after all. It's a unionized industry for the most part. Those gents in SGU aren't stupid and while they would prefer to remain non-union they will adjust to dealing with unions. With ASA they are learning quickly.

Do you think they will just pick up their toys and go home? Hey we'll just liquidate the company since ALPA showed up. Right... Can I have some what you're smoking kid?

SOURCE? THEBEST

 

[bayoubandit]

It was in one of the 10K filings I believe. I remember reading it in one of those SEC filings.

 

[Cardinal]

It would be retarded for skywest to vote those Goons in Alpa in. Skywest has some of the best work rules in the industry and get paid more than ASA. They are also getting more airplans than they can handle. Alpa will just screw that all up.

Interesting. You took a job at CAL, despite your overwhelming disdain for the "goons in ALPA." Well, salvation is at hand. There's a Skywest open house in SAN October 24th. They'd welcome you into their bastion of pure, unfettered capitalism at $19.02/hr....

 

[atrdriver]

Just look at ASA, what as alpa given ASA? Ask those capatins that are F/os again at ASA. That great 70 rate will be cool once you guys get it, too bad you won't have any left to fly.

So SuperIdiot, where were you when ASA more than doubled the size of its pilot group in about 3 years after the 98 contract was signed? Back when we had a great relationship between ALPA and the company? Whatever benefits you have here at ASA you have because of ALPA, NOT because of management. You can blame whatever you want on ALPA, but if you didn't get involved with the union then you are blaming yourself, because ALPA is the pilots. Too bad you are too dense to realize that.

 

[ASARJMan]

Whatever benefits you have here at ASA you have because of ALPA, NOT because of management. You can blame whatever you want on ALPA, but if you didn't get involved with the union then you are blaming yourself, because ALPA is the pilots. Too bad you are too dense to realize that.

Too bad we don't have this turd's name so that we could pass it on to the Cont. MEC! The friggin' loser got hired at a major, and he still comes back here trashing ASA and ALPA. Guess he must get bored sitting on reserve and playing with his pud. Did I mention loser?

VOTED IN FAVOR!

 

[pgcfii2002]

Well written discussion......my mind is about to explode...haven't seen anything like this on here for months.

 

[Hootie9750]

Hootie9750,

Get your chapstick out @ss-boy.

No more buddy passes for you.

 

[amcnd]

I sit on the other side of the fence. I came from another ALPA airline (6 years there) and I think now is NOT the time for ALPA at SkyWest. I must say I have to agree with the management update that was put out today.
Sorry to all the PRO ALPA, but just my opinion.

 

[007]

I think the argument of management-union relations is interesting to look at. On one hand, current union members say, "Look at Southwest! They have a union and they have wonderful relations with management! It is possible!" However, the MAJORITY of MGT-union relations are poor and confrontational.

Look at why that is, when you try to put your employees on foodstamps it might get confrontational.

 

[auspac]

Amcnd, Could you expand on that? What is your back ground and why don't you think now is a time for ALPA at Skywest? I think those that have seen both situations can give us a lot of good information. I know there are people who have come from ALPA carriers to Skywest who believe Skywest desperatley needs ALPA and I'd like to hear their thoughts also.

Willy21, imac dog, atrdriver, sweptback and 007, I think you all made very valid posts in response to my last post. There's certainly no guarantees either way we go. I didn't know that AWAC pilots had made concessions, I thought they lost UAL flying because they wouldn't, so I stand corrected there. I still believe that unions are at least partly to blame for Comair's situation.

Imacdog, I agree with your post but what if I also want a company that is going to be around until I retire? Is ALPA a good choice for that? I hope I'm not still At Skywest then but with the twists and turns that this career has taken so far who knows?
"If you're saying that allowing management to unilaterally slash pay and benefits for employees is a good thing, well I guess that's your opinion. Personally I want my pilot group to have a voice in our future. If you want to work at a company that can do that to you, then a union is probably not the best option. If you want an organization that will fight for what you are worth, then you have to unionize."
If I want to have a secure job in ten years then I have to ...............? I know - no guarantees.

Once again, thanks to everyone for all their replies and for keeping this discussion civil. I have received a couple of nice PMs with some excellent information.

 

[imacdog]

The Comair situation is much more complicated than you make it out to be. Before I was hired, the pilots were offered a two-year pay freeze that the then-company president promised would keep us competitive, while also allowing us to secure more airframes. The unions voted to accept the pay freeze, and the company started to acquire some of the airframes. When Delta declared BK, it took Comair with it because Comair was and still is wholly-owned. Now all of a sudden the company starts to demand that all unions take drastic pay cuts because we are supposedly no longer competitive, losing money, and close to closing the doors. 154 pilots get furloughed and the company gives our union a last, best, and final offer that is no different than when they started "negotiating" with us several months prior. The pilots voted it in by a slim margin but the paycut never took effect because the company couldn't get the drastic pay cuts it wanted from the FAs.

Here we are now, 10 months after the company said we would be out of business if we didn't take pay cuts, and now the tone has changed to "take these pay cuts or lose some airplanes". The company's paycut dollar amount has not changed. So let's summarize: first it was we'd be competitive well into the future for a short term pay freeze, then the company is going to liquidate, now the company may lose some airplanes. Amazing how management keeps changing its story, isn't it?

Some may disagree with the pilot union voting for the paycut earlier this year, and some may disagree with the position that our union is taking now (not offering another vote to the pilots), but the point is we have representatives looking out for the pilots and they are doing what the can to protect our livelihoods. If we didn't have a union, the company simply would have imposed the paycuts it wanted (over 20% for most FOs, and big cuts for captains as well). With a union, the pilot group as a whole has the chance to decide what direction we want to take - either take pay cuts and hope for the best, or don't take pay cuts and hope for the best. Unfortunately in our situation, management is not negotiating in a fair manner and our company as a whole is suffering as a result. It's my opinion that the pilot group would like to see the continued success of Comair, but we are not willing to take a leap of faith considering the over-reaching demands from our management with no guarantees of job security.

As for your question about if you want to be at the same company in ten years, the only way to guarantee that is get out of aviation. I guess there's always a place here if you don't mind being the cheapest provider of lift, but personally I feel I'm worth more than that. The only way we are going to keep our standards as professionals is to fight for it, because management certainly isn't going to do it for us.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

The Comair situation is much more complicated than you make it out to be. Before I was hired, the pilots were offered a two-year pay freeze that the then-company president promised would keep us competitive, while also allowing us to secure more airframes. The unions voted to accept the pay freeze, and the company started to acquire some of the airframes. When Delta declared BK, it took Comair with it because Comair was and still is wholly-owned. Now all of a sudden the company starts to demand that all unions take drastic pay cuts because we are supposedly no longer competitive, losing money, and close to closing the doors. 154 pilots get furloughed and the company gives our union a last, best, and final offer that is no different than when they started "negotiating" with us several months prior. The pilots voted it in by a slim margin but the paycut never took effect because the company couldn't get the drastic pay cuts it wanted from the FAs.

Here we are now, 10 months after the company said we would be out of business if we didn't take pay cuts, and now the tone has changed to "take these pay cuts or lose some airplanes". The company's paycut dollar amount has not changed. So let's summarize: first it was we'd be competitive well into the future for a short term pay freeze, then the company is going to liquidate, now the company may lose some airplanes. Amazing how management keeps changing its story, isn't it?

Some may disagree with the pilot union voting for the paycut earlier this year, and some may disagree with the position that our union is taking now (not offering another vote to the pilots), but the point is we have representatives looking out for the pilots and they are doing what the can to protect our livelihoods. If we didn't have a union, the company simply would have imposed the paycuts it wanted (over 20% for most FOs, and big cuts for captains as well). With a union, the pilot group as a whole has the chance to decide what direction we want to take - either take pay cuts and hope for the best, or don't take pay cuts and hope for the best. Unfortunately in our situation, management is not negotiating in a fair manner and our company as a whole is suffering as a result. It's my opinion that the pilot group would like to see the continued success of Comair, but we are not willing to take a leap of faith considering the over-reaching demands from our management with no guarantees of job security.

As for your question about if you want to be at the same company in ten years, the only way to guarantee that is get out of aviation. I guess there's always a place here if you don't mind being the cheapest provider of lift, but personally I feel I'm worth more than that. The only way we are going to keep our standards as professionals is to fight for it, because management certainly isn't going to do it for us.

I sure hope the fencesitters are reading your input! Well spoken, and the absolute truth!

 

[embdrvr]

SOURCE? THEBEST

Every annual report and practically every significant SEC filing.

Do some research.

 

[imacdog]

Well I'm trying to be somewhat neutral and answer questions without too much bias, but even though I haven't been here long I have come to appreciate having a union. This is also coming from a background of flying for small 135 operators and coming to the 121 world without having much interest, or desire to have a union.

 

[www.]

It would be retarded for skywest to vote those Goons in Alpa in. Skywest has some of the best work rules in the industry and get paid more than ASA. They are also getting more airplans than they can handle. Alpa will just screw that all up.

Just look at ASA, what as alpa given ASA? Ask those capatins that are F/os again at ASA. That great 70 rate will be cool once you guys get it, too bad you won't have any left to fly.

Man your gone. Quit your crying.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Without a union, my employer (ASA) would have imposed their concessionary wishes on me a long time ago. A 13% paycut for me would have equated to losing approximately $5,000 per year. This coming from a company that has made in the neighborhood of $40,000,000 each of the last two quarters.

I don't give two ********************s about Dwayne and the National portion of ALPA, but myself and my fellow coworkers make up the local level of ALPA, and without these guys and gals, ASA would have imposed some pretty crappy pay and work rules on me WITHOUT my input.

I've gone and listened to management preach their need for paycuts to stay competitive. I have to raise the BS flag when a company that makes millions in profits feels the need for already poorly paid employees to give money back.

I even heard Charlie Tutt say that any concessions from the pilot group would not guarantee any new airframes.

Whatever way you guys go at SKW, I sure hope it works out for the two of us. But hear this, ASA has been owned by SkyWest for 14 months now, and these same management people at ASA are being told what to do by Jerry and his guys.

In other words, the crap that they are pulling with ASA, is coming from the same people who own you as well, and may even be thrown your way in the future.

 

[Publishers]

One severe problem in today's airline world is that in order to change anything, one almost needs to be in crisis mode to start with. An example I would give, not so much a union or non-union was the reaction to September 11 and the difference between Air Tran and the major carriers. If I remember correctly, and I have no doubt I will hear immediately if wrong, Air Tran pilots got together and accepted a pay cut in lieu of layoffs.
At the time, it was obvious to all that the airline business was going to take a major hit, yet most of the carriers continued into the abyss locked into work rules and a pay stucture that says show us you are in deep trouble and maybe we will do something.
The Evergreen's of the world respond to business opportunities quickly all the time (not a rec for EZ).
In short, it is not so much the union / non union that is the issue. It is a structure and culture that is self destructive, accusatory, and where one has to be under the water before they throw you the rope.
As i pointed out, any system like this is not worth joining. Can you imagine a senior software engineer making $150k per year being recruited to another company and told they have to go back to $25k until they gain seniority. There is some feeling that things are so tough. Go ask some investment banker candidate or new attorney in a NY firm how many hours they are expected to work and what they get paid. Look at the auto workers and see how successful that is going. The Japanese and foreign automakers actually restrict their marketshare to keep the US companies in business for if they put them out, there will be legislation keeping them out. Imagine if they open the skies of this country.

 

[amcnd]

Amcnd, Could you expand on that? What is your back ground and why don't you think now is a time for ALPA at Skywest? I think those that have seen both situations can give us a lot of good information. I know there are people who have come from ALPA carriers to Skywest who believe Skywest desperatley needs ALPA and I'd like to hear their thoughts also.


Once again, thanks to everyone for all their replies and for keeping this discussion civil. I have received a couple of nice PMs with some excellent information.

Sure, I came from Eagle. I watched ALPA try to help us? but I sat back and watched 10 airplanes go to TSA, watched the APA walk all over us...Not to mention the work rules. I am so happy with the work rules and pay at SkyWest. At Eagle I flew 90 and got payed 90hrs at SkyWest fly 80 get payed 110!! Overall I am allot happier at SkyWest after 2 years, then Eagle for 6+ years.

 

[Ponchus pilot]

One severe problem in today's airline world is that in order to change anything, one almost needs to be in crisis mode to start with. An example I would give, not so much a union or non-union was the reaction to September 11 and the difference between Air Tran and the major carriers. If I remember correctly, and I have no doubt I will hear immediately if wrong, Air Tran pilots got together and accepted a pay cut in lieu of layoffs.
At the time, it was obvious to all that the airline business was going to take a major hit, yet most of the carriers continued into the abyss locked into work rules and a pay stucture that says show us you are in deep trouble and maybe we will do something.
The Evergreen's of the world respond to business opportunities quickly all the time (not a rec for EZ).
In short, it is not so much the union / non union that is the issue. It is a structure and culture that is self destructive, accusatory, and where one has to be under the water before they throw you the rope.
As i pointed out, any system like this is not worth joining. Can you imagine a senior software engineer making $150k per year being recruited to another company and told they have to go back to $25k until they gain seniority. There is some feeling that things are so tough. Go ask some investment banker candidate or new attorney in a NY firm how many hours they are expected to work and what they get paid. Look at the auto workers and see how successful that is going. The Japanese and foreign automakers actually restrict their marketshare to keep the US companies in business for if they put them out, there will be legislation keeping them out. Imagine if they open the skies of this country.

1) The majors have a different business model than Airtran and southwest.
2) You have to have seniority at airlines since you have lines with different number of days off work days and reserve. Without it a newhire would get a flying line while a 10 year guy would get reserve. Same thing with furloughs.
3) The system has been well worth joining, much better than not having a union.
4) Pilots work long hours, this has nothing to do with flight time. You would not know because you probably fly a cessna for an hour a week. Duty times of 12-14 hours happen often.
5) The automakers simply suck, that is why they are hurting, its not the union. My BMW is made by union workers in Germany with many more protections and pay than US workers. Why are they doing well then? Its because they make a fine automobile.

You obviously dont work in the industry and have no idea about how ALPA works. Many majors had to shed extra weight after 9/11, there was simply to much capacity out there. The times are changing.

 

[Grassstrippilot]

Excellent post imacdog.