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Skywest and ASA

Flyer1015

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No flame here, just some facts:

Skywest flies their 70 seaters at the 50 seat pay.

ASA flies their 70 seaters for 70 seat pay (which is higher at all annual levels than the Skywest 50 seat pay range).

**************************************************

So, what's to stop "Skywest Inc." to transfer all of the 70 seaters from ASA and give them to Skywest, so they can operate it at the "cheaper" cost?

This is straight from Skywest's acquisition of ASA FAQs:
SkyWest, Inc. will be in the unique position of allocating resources, including growth aircraft to the two carriers, so it is imperative that both carriers have competitive cost structures to support future growth opportunities. Each carrier may arrive at competitive costs in different ways.


That has whipsawing written all over it.

I think (just an opinion) that one of two things needs to happen:

1. Skywest needs to get 70 seat rates, and then ASA needs to get a new contract (neg. since 02!). Both of the 50 seat and 70 seat rates should be very close/comparable. If not that,

2. Merge both carriers into one.


You saw how AMR dealt with all of the Eagle carriers. Shrinking one carrier during contract negotiations to pressure the group, etc. etc.

What's to make anyone else think that Skywest Inc won't do the same?
 

viper548

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ASA flies the 50 seat jet at a lower rate than SKW. What's to stop SKW from transfering the 50 seat flying to ASA?
 

Erlanger

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As I said on another thread, Skywest plans on closing the ASA SLC base before the year is out and all the 70s will flown by the Skywest pilots in SLC. Then sometime next year Skywest plans on opening an ATL base, though most of the flying will be ASA flying; for the time being. Anyone who believes that Skywest wants to keep the companies separate is delusional. Skywest really wants then merged. Skywest knows that ALPA will eventually be on the Skywest premises and the problem of merging the senority list will be out of their hands.
 

jehtplane

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Erlanger said:
As I said on another thread, Skywest plans on closing the ASA SLC base before the year is out and all the 70s will flown by the Skywest pilots in SLC. Then sometime next year Skywest plans on opening an ATL base, though most of the flying will be ASA flying; for the time being. Anyone who believes that Skywest wants to keep the companies separate is delusional. Skywest really wants then merged. Skywest knows that ALPA will eventually be on the Skywest premises and the problem of merging the senority list will be out of their hands.




Are you wearing boots?
 

Flyer1015

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viper548 said:
ASA flies the 50 seat jet at a lower rate than SKW. What's to stop SKW from transfering the 50 seat flying to ASA?

Well, no. ASA 50 seat rates are old. The rate will be updated when they get the new contract (hopefully soon). So, it wouldn't be worth the time to transfer 50 seat flying all to ASA to take advantage for the lower cost, because ASA will soon come up with better rates once their new contract is reached.

But the 70 seater on the other hand, is different. As it stands, the ASA 70 seat rates are already higher than Skywest. With the new ASA contract, they'll probably tend to go a little higher.

So, Skywest Inc. management has an "incentive" to move all 70 seaters to Skywest.

As I said on another thread, Skywest plans on closing the ASA SLC base before the year is out and all the 70s will flown by the Skywest pilots in SLC. Then sometime next year Skywest plans on opening an ATL base, though most of the flying will be ASA flying; for the time being.

Question is, how many of ASA's CRJ-700s will Skywest Inc. move over to Skywest? From what you're saying, it seems that ASA is about to get royally shafted.
 

MRBEAR

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Does anyone *know* what's in the ASA contract regarding the sale of the airline and how this is handled?

A friend at a major who is a lawyer/FO/union negotiating member suggests that a union contract, particularly ALPA, would have this covered. Otherwise, what's to stop a small union airline from being (repeatedly) sold? Past examples would only support that a current contract would cover this.
 

ASAFOE120

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Well, I sure dont understand all the technical issues here, but according to the IP that just taught my recurrent, it would be impossible for Skywest to come in and transfer the ASA assets off property. The example was given about back when Eagle was all separate carriers and they had the ATR that went down in icing conditions. Apparently all of the ATR aicraft had to be transferred to Executive or Simmons or whichever one it was that was flying down south. Then they sent a bunch of Saab's up north to whomever was operating the ATR's. Now somewhere along the way this transferring of assets caused a problem and thus the end result was the merging of all the Eagle carriers.

This was just an example of what was brought up in recurrent. Maybe some of you Eagle guys can enlighten us on this issue.

Oh well, whatever!
 

socrates1

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MRBEAR said:
Does anyone *know* what's in the ASA contract regarding the sale of the airline and how this is handled?

A friend at a major who is a lawyer/FO/union negotiating member suggests that a union contract, particularly ALPA, would have this covered. Otherwise, what's to stop a small union airline from being (repeatedly) sold? Past examples would only support that a current contract would cover this.

It's mainly lawyer talk to me. But here it is if you can figure it out.


E. Merger Protection
1. If the Company acquires a carrier whose pilots are represented by the
Association, the pilots of the Company and the pilots of the acquired carrier
will each operate pursuant to their collective bargaining agreement or terms
and conditions of employment with their respective seniority lists until the
first day of the first month following:
a. conclusion of negotiation of only such provision(s), if any, as may be
necessary to cover such acquired carriers’ flying under this
Agreement, and
b. integration of the seniority lists of the respective pilot groups. Such
seniority integration shall be governed by the Association’s Merger
Policies. There will be no “system flush” as a result of seniority
integration.
2. If the Company acquires a carrier whose pilots are not represented by the
Association, the pilots of the Company and the pilots of the acquired carrier
will each operate pursuant to their own collective bargaining agreement or
terms and conditions of employment, with their respective seniority lists until
the first day of the first month following:
a. conclusion of negotiation of only such provision(s), if any, as may be
necessary to cover such acquired carrier’s flying under this
Agreement, and
b. integration of the seniority lists of the respective pilot groups. Such
seniority integration will be accomplished in a fair and equitable
manner, including, where applicable, negotiations between the
Company and the representatives of the pilot groups affected. There
will be no “system flush” as a result of seniority integration. In the
event of failure to reach a negotiated resolution, the seniority
integration dispute will be resolved as provided in Sections 3 and 13
of the Labor Protective Provisions specified by the Civil Aeronautics
Board in the Allegheny-Mohawk Merger.
3. Upon the announcement of any transaction that is intended to result in the
consolidation of the Company with another carrier that affects the seniority
rights of pilots on the Seniority List, the parties will meet promptly to discuss
the appropriate steps to be taken consistent with this Agreement, e.g., to
negotiate an appropriate fence agreement and to implement a seniority
integration process as provided for in paragraph E.1. or E.2., above.
4. During the period between the announcement of any transaction described
in paragraph E. and the conclusion of the process as provided therein, no
pilot who was on the Seniority List and who had completed his probationary
period as of the effective date of this Agreement will be furloughed as a
result of such transaction.

 

strega7

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Upon the announcement of any transaction that is intended to result in the consolidation of the Company with another carrier
Since ASA didn't aquire another carrier but was in fact aquired itself, none of the language quoted above applies. The closest is the begining of paragraph 3, but SkyWest Inc. intends to keep SkyWest and ASA as seperate carriers. There appears to be no language in the ASA contract that would "control" the purchasing company in this situation. I remember Mesa moving equipment between Mesa Airlines and Westair to "improve" operations and that's when both pilot groups were ALPA represented and both "owned" by Mesa.

It's happened in the past and it will happen again. We just need to learn from our history so we can stop it in the future.

Fly Safe.
 
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Willy21

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There is more to this than what ASA rates are vs. Skywest's rates. I need some help from the Skywest guys but I believe that Skywest has trip and/or duty regs that allow them to get paid more hours a month than ASA pilots. If that is true then looking at rates alone will not paint a complete picture as to which group gets paid more.

As for the section of ASA's contract that deals with merger protection when ASA is bought by another company,

3. "Upon the announcement of any transaction that is intended to result in the consolidation of the Company with another carrier that affects the seniority rights of pilots on the Seniority List," Moving 70 seaters to Skywest will affect every pilot on the ASA seniority list (a move back to the 50 seater which would mean less pay, less airplanes would result in less pilots needed and maybe furloughs, the list goes on). If that happens then "the parties will meet promptly to discuss the appropriate steps to be taken consistent with this Agreement, e.g., to negotiate an appropriate fence agreement and to implement a seniority integration process as provided for in paragraph E.1. or E.2., above."

I think that states what must happen per our current contract. In short, putting the Skywest logo on an ASA airplane or an ASA logo on a Skywest airplane has many legal road hazards to clear. There is a lot more to the puzzle then just switching airplanes from one carrier to the other.
 

701EV

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As soon as one airplane is transfered to Skywest from ASA. A petition for single carrier status will be filed.

701EV
 
H

Halo_RJdriver

yo

Willy21 said:
There is more to this than what ASA rates are vs. Skywest's rates. I need some help from the Skywest guys but I believe that Skywest has trip and/or duty regs that allow them to get paid more hours a month than ASA pilots. If that is true then looking at rates alone will not paint a complete picture as to which group gets paid more.

As for the section of ASA's contract that deals with merger protection when ASA is bought by another company,

3. "Upon the announcement of any transaction that is intended to result in the consolidation of the Company with another carrier that affects the seniority rights of pilots on the Seniority List," Moving 70 seaters to Skywest will affect every pilot on the ASA seniority list (a move back to the 50 seater which would mean less pay, less airplanes would result in less pilots needed and maybe furloughs, the list goes on). If that happens then "the parties will meet promptly to discuss the appropriate steps to be taken consistent with this Agreement, e.g., to negotiate an appropriate fence agreement and to implement a seniority integration process as provided for in paragraph E.1. or E.2., above."

I think that states what must happen per our current contract. In short, putting the Skywest logo on an ASA airplane or an ASA logo on a Skywest airplane has many legal road hazards to clear. There is a lot more to the puzzle then just switching airplanes from one carrier to the other.


We have a 3:45 min. daily guarantee
 

Crash Pad

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Well if they want to merge us... let's do it... I'm young. If I'm going to be thrown to the bottom of the list I want to get it over with. If it is a race to the bottom then screw it I want to win. I've seen AirWhiskey, ACA, Comair, etc... Between them or CHQ or Mesa I hate to say it but I'd rather be a Captain in a week at CHQ than on the street with a great pay scale at Comair. The new ASA contract will have no pay raise Delta and NWA will assure that by having lower payscales than we currently do. (100 seat)
Fighting the good fight and raising the bar sound great if you are still employed. I would rather try to position ASA and Skywest as the largest feeder in the USA... Then when the smoke clears and there are only a couple feeders... Muscle them for money, QOL, etc.
 

Grassstrippilot

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One point that hasn't been made, it will cost a substantial amount to pay moving costs to all the management people, pilots, and FAs to move back to ATL. How that compares to over all cost savings for having someone operate the same aircraft for less, I don't know.
 

Willy21

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Grassstrippilot said:
One point that hasn't been made, it will cost a substantial amount to pay moving costs to all the management people, pilots, and FAs to move back to ATL. How that compares to over all cost savings for having someone operate the same aircraft for less, I don't know.

Look at what happened when ASA closed DFW, we lost more pilots than mgmt had thought. That made it hard to keep staffing levels where they needed to be. SLC has a lot of DFW pilots that might not want to move twice in less than 18 months. We just got our training department caught up on training cycles, don't think they want to get behind again. Closing down the base, I think it will happen in time, but it is more than just moving costs that will determine the time.

As for the airplanes, for Skywest to operate the 700 in SLC they would have to get some from the factory. Airplanes won't just be moved from ASA to Skywest. It is more than just operating costs that mgmt has to look at.
 
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Willy21

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Halo_RJdriver said:
We have a 3:45 min. daily guarantee

What are some of the other things you can credit each month.
 

Socalplt

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Duty guarantee minimum 1.0hr pay for every two hours of scheduled duty.
Premium guarantee if the trip is originally scheduled for more than 12 hours you'll get 1 hour of pay for each duty hour past 12. ie 13 hours of duty = min 7.0 hours of pay, 14 hours duty= mininmum 8.0 hours pay. Again this is all off scheduled time. If you show up for duty day scheduled for 6 hours and it runs to 14 these guarantees don't apply. Pay per leg based on the greater of actual flight time or historical credit. Full pay for cancellations (except in certain situations while on reserve) and full pay for all deadheads. Junior man trips pay time and a half and are not mandatory. If you are pulled off a trip for training you'll receive the greater value between the two.
 
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79%N1

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Socalplt said:
Duty guarantee minimum 1.0hr pay for every two hours of scheduled duty.
Premium guarantee if the trip is originally scheduled for more than 12 hours you'll get 1 hour of pay for each duty hour past 12. ie 13 hours of duty = min 7.0 hours of pay, 14 hours duty= mininmum 8.0 hours pay. Again this is all off scheduled time. If you show up for duty day scheduled for 6 hours and it runs to 14 these guarantees don't apply. Pay per leg based on the greater of actual flight time or historical credit. Full pay for cancellations (except in certain situations while on reserve) and full pay for all deadheads. Junior man trips pay time and a half and are not mandatory. If you are pulled off a trip for training you'll receive the greater value between the two.

I'm alrealdy at over 900 hours of pay for 600-650 of block for the year.

With contract language like that......ASA is MUCH CHEAPER than SKW in terms of overall compensation! Everybody needs to quit looking at hourly costs when determining overall compensation. Other factors such as insurance, retirement or 401k contributions all factor into overall labor costs! And even still, lets not forget that crew costs differences is minimal in determining which company has the cheapest costs!!!!! WE PILOTS NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS!!! Comair has some of the highest crew costs, but overall low costs....

Anyway, we at ASA get our hourly rate, block or better.....PERIOD! Time and 1/2 only for a reschedule outside our footprint. Nothing more. Sounds like SKYW has an overall better compensation package, buy hey....3 1/6 years into negotiations and we arent even to those "small" items yet!!!
 

Willy21

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ASA has nothing like that in our contract at this time. Skywest might not have the 70 seat rate that ASA does, but I think I would take you work rules over ours anyday. In the end I think you would see that a Skywest pilot makes more than an ASA pilot.
 
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