SkyWest ALPA

[John Pennekamp]

As someone who has volunteered for Committee work within ALPA and who is familiar with the functioning of the union I have to say that I am hopeful that SkyWest merges the ASA operation (which is very unlikely) and well all the opportunity to vote ALPA off the property. ALPA has lost its last 4 representational votes, for good reason.

In my tenure at ASA, ALPA National has done everything possible to reduce the representation I recieve from the union. ALPA changed the constitution and bylaws to exclude acquired airlines like Comair from enjoying the benefits of the merger and fragmentation policy. ALPA jerrymandered the Executive Board so that airlines like FedEx and each major gets their own EVP, while all the regional carriers share a single, ineffective, Board Rep. All the funding for local operations comes from "contingency funds" which is used to keep your local representatives from straying from ALPA National's party line.

Look around the industry. ALPA has worked to establish jets for jobs programs to take Captain slots at "Regionals." ALPA has used our jobs for negotiating fodder and is currently arguing for cuts at small jet opeators to help offset the cuts at majors. At every level our rights are traded to benefit our major airline "brothers" who would just as well see our airlines disappear so they can swoop in and take jobs.

If you wonder why a merger and fragmentation policy is important - consider that that change in the Constitution more than any other factor began the race for the bottom - where we no must bid against eachother for flying.

The local ALPA volunteers are wonderful and ALPA National provides a good organizational structure, but, ALPA National is a dangerous predator - simply the tool of major airline pilots to take what you have, while restraining your local representatives from fighting to protect you.

EMBDRVR is correct to watch the rest of the industry. Did you know members of the Northwest MEC voted against Mesaba's strike benefits? How's that for support?

That's coming from one of the biggest RJDC supporters at ASA.

Anyone who would pay ALPA dues, then send more money to an organization that is wasting ALPA dues money on a frivolous lawsuit, then complain about how ALPA wastes his dues ought to be taken with a grain of salt!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Growth? Seems like ALPA has a thing or two to say about scope. And scope and growth go hand in hand.
Failed? ALPA failed to predict the impact of the RJ. A matter of pretty big consequence most would say. ALPA has failed to provide any leadership and vision in this changing industry. Atleast I haven't read anything in my ALPA magazine. All I read is blame on government, and blame on management.

What is the impact of the CRJ? Does ALPA decide what aircraft and how they are used in the business model? Sure there is scope, but that is reactionary. Read my reply to Fins. Again, what are your expectations.

How is ALPA powerless? By claiming victim status. Bad things, bad policy, bad managment keep making life hard for ALPA (or so it says). Boo hoo!! The neat thing about being a victim is nothing is your fault. The trouble is, it also means you are powerless to do anything about it. You're at the mercy of all those bullies who are victimizing you.

Perhaps you are coming to an understanding of reality. Air Line pilots do not run alirlines! The RLA and the corporate culture in this country dictate that the airline industry is vital to our economy. Therefore pilots will take what they get.

I'd love to support ALPA if I could see any leadership on the national level. I just don't see it. I don't hear any new ideas, any vision statments, any lets rally together and solve this problem. And I don't see any new brain power working on any of these problems, just the same old guys doing the same old things they've done since the late '70's. Times are a changin' but I don't see ALPA changin' with them.

What do you suggest? Becuase I don't see any new ideas, any vision statements form you.

One of the problems is the ALPA new hire briefing. It is about 30-90 mins long at the regionals. An ALPA guy comes in with 10-20 greasy pizzas and has to convince you ALPA is a good deal before management invites him to leave.

So, in about an hour this ALPA rep tells you how great ALPA is, what they are doing to make your job better. If your company is in section 6 then you will be told how the pay and work rules are better. A little paper work and he is done. Gone.

Now, what message has the ALPA rep given....?

ALPA is a great organization. We are here to protect you. We make your job better. we shield you from the harsh realities of the industry. We are here for you.

This is a pretty vague understanding but it is what pilots get. And blanks spaces are filled in with unrealistic expectations.

It is no surprise that most pilots hate ALPA. They got a raw deal from the beginning.

But you are a big boy now. You can read. You can listen. You can self educate. You can be pragmatic and realistic. You can understand that the airline industry is in total shambles and your company and ALPA cannot be all things to all pilots all the time.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

As someone who has volunteered for Committee work within ALPA and who is familiar with the functioning of the union I have to say that I am hopeful that SkyWest merges the ASA operation (which is very unlikely) and well all the opportunity to vote ALPA off the property. ALPA has lost its last 4 representational votes, for good reason.

In my tenure at ASA, ALPA National has done everything possible to reduce the representation I recieve from the union. ALPA changed the constitution and bylaws to exclude acquired airlines like Comair from enjoying the benefits of the merger and fragmentation policy. ALPA jerrymandered the Executive Board so that airlines like FedEx and each major gets their own EVP, while all the regional carriers share a single, ineffective, Board Rep. All the funding for local operations comes from "contingency funds" which is used to keep your local representatives from straying from ALPA National's party line.

Look around the industry. ALPA has worked to establish jets for jobs programs to take Captain slots at "Regionals." ALPA has used our jobs for negotiating fodder and is currently arguing for cuts at small jet opeators to help offset the cuts at majors. At every level our rights are traded to benefit our major airline "brothers" who would just as well see our airlines disappear so they can swoop in and take jobs.

If you wonder why a merger and fragmentation policy is important - consider that that change in the Constitution more than any other factor began the race for the bottom - where we no must bid against eachother for flying.

The local ALPA volunteers are wonderful and ALPA National provides a good organizational structure, but, ALPA National is a dangerous predator - simply the tool of major airline pilots to take what you have, while restraining your local representatives from fighting to protect you.

EMBDRVR is correct to watch the rest of the industry. Did you know members of the Northwest MEC voted against Mesaba's strike benefits? How's that for support?

Fins,

While your post is well written, it is from the viewpoint of the vocal miniority. The major airline pilots are the majority. Simply put the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few.

I thought J4J was repulsive, and I still don't like it, but if it wasn't for the Brand there would be no ASA, PCL, XJ, Skywest, etc... The major airline pilots contribute more to the Brands revenue than you do. Just like fuelers and catering, regional pilots are employees of vendors. Once that is understood, then we can work on unity and win win solutions... (if we can!)

When the good times come back and growth and career expectations are real, there will be no time of ALPA bashing because the water will be warm and boats to be sailed.....

Everything is realitive...keep it real...

 

[737 Pylt]

lies, lies and more lies!

As someone who has volunteered for Committee work within ALPA and who is familiar with the functioning of the union I have to say that I am hopeful that SkyWest merges the ASA operation (which is very unlikely) and well all the opportunity to vote ALPA off the property. ALPA has lost its last 4 representational votes, for good reason.

In my tenure at ASA, ALPA National has done everything possible to reduce the representation I recieve from the union. ALPA changed the constitution and bylaws to exclude acquired airlines like Comair from enjoying the benefits of the merger and fragmentation policy. ALPA jerrymandered the Executive Board so that airlines like FedEx and each major gets their own EVP, while all the regional carriers share a single, ineffective, Board Rep. All the funding for local operations comes from "contingency funds" which is used to keep your local representatives from straying from ALPA National's party line.

Look around the industry. ALPA has worked to establish jets for jobs programs to take Captain slots at "Regionals." ALPA has used our jobs for negotiating fodder and is currently arguing for cuts at small jet opeators to help offset the cuts at majors. At every level our rights are traded to benefit our major airline "brothers" who would just as well see our airlines disappear so they can swoop in and take jobs.

If you wonder why a merger and fragmentation policy is important - consider that that change in the Constitution more than any other factor began the race for the bottom - where we no must bid against eachother for flying.

The local ALPA volunteers are wonderful and ALPA National provides a good organizational structure, but, ALPA National is a dangerous predator - simply the tool of major airline pilots to take what you have, while restraining your local representatives from fighting to protect you.

EMBDRVR is correct to watch the rest of the industry. Did you know members of the Northwest MEC voted against Mesaba's strike benefits? How's that for support?

Man, the way you spew your lies and drivel, I could nominate you for a management position. This post is almost as rediculous as your lies about non rev travel on DL. Your two faced rhetoric just keeps coming, but you do make for enjoyable reading. Just one question....Why is it that the regionals with the most explosive growth (specifically YOU) in the last 5 years do the most complaining about growth?! Who has benefited the most from our "predatory scope." You know, the ones that "take" captain slots away from regional airlines and put "mainline pilots" in their seats!
737

 

[~~~^~~~]

That's coming from one of the biggest RJDC supporters at ASA.

Anyone who would pay ALPA dues, then send more money to an organization that is wasting ALPA dues money on a frivolous lawsuit, then complain about how ALPA wastes his dues ought to be taken with a grain of salt!

Thanks - I am a supporter of the effort to try to reform (save) ALPA and proud of it.

You have my position wrong on dues money. ALPA is remarkably efficient at a local level, utilizing pilots who's hearts and minds are in the right place. Their service is what makes ALPA great.

It is regrettable that ALPA has to spend a penny defending DFR lawsuits. The RJDC litigation is just one of a dozen, or so, ALPA is currently defending. If the union had a proper structure that allowed small jet pilots any representation, or a balance of power which did not simply allow a powerful MEC to victimize other members, then these costs would not be a necessity. Believe me, I would prefer a system that did not require ALPA members to spend their own money to hire counsel to try to repair the union - that is what the RJDC is fighting for. You are correct that I probably am nuts, probably better just to enjoy the ride and if the union decides to implode - let it - guess I am sentimental that ALPA will return to its core beliefs, like bringing pilots together to bargain collectively and restore the profession. But truly, I'm a nobody and don't matter. What we should be discussing is whether ALPA s the right choice for pilots in the position to chose.

ALPA should not ignore its own rules, deny its members the right to participate in negotiations that control their pay and working conditions - then complain about the cost of defending its egregious actions.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins,

While your post is well written, it is from the viewpoint of the vocal miniority. The major airline pilots are the majority. Simply put the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few.

Everything is realitive...keep it real...

Thank you for your well reasoned post, you nailed an important issue in dispute. You describe mob rule. A democracy has to have balances on power. ALPA needs an effective judiciary.

What about the Executive Board situation? In a "democracy" what makes a FedEx ALPA member's vote worth so much more than a SkyWest ALPA member's vote? (if they chose to join)

Skywest guys - Rez O. Lewshun correctly summed up ALPA's current position.

If you vote to join ALPA welcome to the minority.

 

[sstearns2]

You are demonstrating your ignorance. The RLA is Federal Law and no contract can be changed outside of Section 6 negotiations. The courts MUST uphold the law, and they will as they have before in other "major disputes".

Here at ASA, if the pay checks came in 10% short, there would be grievances and back pay. Our ALPA contract at ASA requires all pay errors greater than $100 to be rectified within three business days. What do ya think you'd get at Skywest sin union if that happens? I know... 10% poorer.

So, what happens if you file a grievance and the company ignores it and doesn't talk to the union? What happens when the three days pass and nothing has happened? You and ALPA file a lawsuit, which you'll eventually win.

You view your contract as if the omnificent hand of God will come down and smut managment if they deviate from the contract. That's simply not the case.

Scott

Scott

 

[theo]

I know pilots have one job in the world and that is complaining... ALPA will give you more to complain about and more channels to complain on.
GO ALPA, GO TEAMSTERS... Let me know when you get them on the property so I can start the first MANAGEMENT IS TRYING TO SCREW US AT SKYWEST thread.

The above quote about the first thread is the crux of my problem with union representation. The first thing to happen is a poisoning of the relationship with the company. If pilots don't feel resentment,fear, hate, disrespect, insecurity etc, then what do they need a union for. Unions like any other money making venture know that in order to convince people to pay for their services they must create demand. They do that by fostering all of the above emotions I mentioned above.

So at Skywest you don't get the feeling that any of those emotions are true. Skywest treats their employees fairly. People are fighting to get in there. People talk about how much they love it there. You don't see the preponderance of hate and discontent most other Union carriers contend with at Skywest. I just don't see where a union will make life better than it is. I do see them making it worse.

 

[Skyjet]

Asa is all the proof I need, to vote no to alpa at skywest.

 

[John Pennekamp]

So, what happens if you file a grievance and the company ignores it and doesn't talk to the union? What happens when the three days pass and nothing has happened? You and ALPA file a lawsuit, which you'll eventually win.

You view your contract as if the omnificent hand of God will come down and smut managment if they deviate from the contract. That's simply not the case.

Scott

Scott

???

You pretty much got it right. We file a grievance. The company denies the grievance. We mediate it then arbitrate it. The arbitrator rules to make the affected pilots whole with full back pay. This is pretty industry standard, really.

You need to do your homework before you shoot your mouth off about "omnificent hands of God" or whatever that was all about. ALPA's been around for 75 years, and they may suck politically, but they know contract enforcement and they know safety. Those two things are why I pay my dues, and you can't get ALPA's experience and clout in those areas elsewhere.

 

[ReverseSensing]

The above quote about the first thread is the crux of my problem with union representation. The first thing to happen is a poisoning of the relationship with the company. If pilots don't feel resentment,fear, hate, disrespect, insecurity etc, then what do they need a union for. Unions like any other money making venture know that in order to convince people to pay for their services they must create demand. They do that by fostering all of the above emotions I mentioned above.

So at Skywest you don't get the feeling that any of those emotions are true. Skywest treats their employees fairly. People are fighting to get in there. People talk about how much they love it there. You don't see the preponderance of hate and discontent most other Union carriers contend with at Skywest. I just don't see where a union will make life better than it is. I do see them making it worse.

I think eventually you will see middle managers prefer to work with a pilot group under a CBA. It keeps them from having to make any difficult moral decisions. It keeps them from having to decide what the "right thing" is to do. They just do what the CBA says, and punch out at 5:00 p.m. That's why it is so important that the CBA spells out precisely how management will act in every conceiveable situation, because once the CBA is in effect, they cannot be trusted to do the right thing in an area of ambiguity, they will simply interpret the CBA to their (the company's) advantage and tell the pilot to pound sand and/or grieve it.

The difference between how management acts with or without a CBA is that without a CBA you ultimately have no protection against arbitrary and capricious actions of management except what you can personally bring to the table. With a CBA, you have the legal protection of the union against someone in management (however unlikely it might be) gunning for you.

 

[John Pennekamp]

If y'all need another reason to go union consider this recent event at ASA:

Last week, we had the company attempt to discipline a captain for refusing an airplane that had just landed with smoke in the cockpit and smoke in the lav. Maintenance inspected it, was unable to find the source of smoke, and assumed it had come from the toilet motor. Told him it had been serviced with blue juice and was now good to go. The captain called BS and told them he wasn't going until they definitively found the source of smoke, including inspecting the lav motor (which had not even been done) if they thought it was the problem. Before he knew it, the System Chief Pilot was on his cell phone threatening the captain if he didn't take the airplane. The captain refused and was pulled off line pending discipline.

ALPA raised hell and the captain did not recieve discipline. The union got the FAA involved at the national level. The union is preparing a safety memo describing the incident for the pilots.

Two days later, the same aircraft again had smoke while in revenue service. ALPA was there to protect and defend the pilot of that airplane too.

How would the "student council" union over at Skywest have handled it? Do you think they would have gone into a meeting with the System Chief Pilot and stood their ground under threat of termination? Yes, they can be terminated, they aren't protected by the RLA like ours are. That boosts our reps' effectiveness.

Think that won't happen over there? Think again... ASA is Skywest. Times are tight and pilot pushing is back. Who's going to protect your life, your pay, your licence and your family? A union afiliated with the AFL-CIO or a "student council" controlled by the company? Think about it.

 

[skyhogg]

So, what happens when the checks start coming in 10% short? Does the FBI storm the place and force them to write new checks? Do you think Bush is going to spend any 'political capitol' to hold their feet to the fire? No, ALPA would file a lawsuit. The RLA states that it's illegal, but that doesn't stop it from happening. The RLA just gives you a basis for a lawsuit, which you'd win, but it would take a lot of time and money.

Scott

Yes the RLA gives you a basis for a lawsuit, which we'd win. Yes it would take a lot of time and money, which we would have at our disposal if we were ALPA. What do we have now?

 

[theo]

If y'all need another reason to go union consider this recent event at ASA:

Last week, we had the company attempt to discipline a captain for refusing an airplane that had just landed with smoke in the cockpit and smoke in the lav. Maintenance inspected it, was unable to find the source of smoke, and assumed it had come from the toilet motor. Told him it had been serviced with blue juice and was now good to go. The captain called BS and told them he wasn't going until they definitively found the source of smoke, including inspecting the lav motor (which had not even been done) if they thought it was the problem. Before he knew it, the System Chief Pilot was on his cell phone threatening the captain if he didn't take the airplane. The captain refused and was pulled off line pending discipline.

ALPA raised hell and the captain did not recieve discipline. The union got the FAA involved at the national level. The union is preparing a safety memo describing the incident for the pilots.

Two days later, the same aircraft again had smoke while in revenue service. ALPA was there to protect and defend the pilot of that airplane too.

How would the "student council" union over at Skywest have handled it? Do you think they would have gone into a meeting with the System Chief Pilot and stood their ground under threat of termination? Yes, they can be terminated, they aren't protected by the RLA like ours are. That boosts our reps' effectiveness.

Think that won't happen over there? Think again... ASA is Skywest. Times are tight and pilot pushing is back. Who's going to protect your life, your pay, your licence and your family? A union afiliated with the AFL-CIO or a "student council" controlled by the company? Think about it.

You guys talk as if Skywest is some new airline that has never seen these types of controversies before. They have and they apparently handle them quite well. Otherwise you would find the prevailing sentiment regarding the company to be poor. In fact the opposite is true. The general sentiment in the company is that they LIKE it . Why should the divisivness that comes with the union be allowed in. Don't try to fix something that aint broke.

 

[skyhogg]

When some of the F/A's sued the company a couple years ago, the judge treated thier 'agreement' as legally binding. I don't see why the pilot 'agreement' would be any differnent in the eyes of that judge. It might depend on the judge in another case, but the precident is clear.

Scott

With what financial resources would you suggest the pilots sue to have their "agreement" viewed as legally binding by some sympathetic judge? ALPA would provide such resources

 

[skyhogg]

So, what happens if you file a grievance and the company ignores it and doesn't talk to the union? What happens when the three days pass and nothing has happened? You and ALPA file a lawsuit, which you'll eventually win.

You view your contract as if the omnificent hand of God will come down and smut managment if they deviate from the contract. That's simply not the case.

Scott

Scott

What are you talking about?

OMNISCIENT: Having total knowledge; knowing everything: an omniscient deity; the omniscient narrator.

SMITE:

1. <LI type=a>To inflict a heavy blow on, with or as if with the hand, a tool, or a weapon.
2. To drive or strike (a weapon, for example) forcefully onto or into something else.
3. To attack, damage, or destroy by or as if by blows.

Yes if the company deviates from a legal contract, we and ALPA will file a lawsuit to have the omniscient hand of God help us smite management to get them to hold up their end of the deal...

What do we do without ALPA?

 

[John Pennekamp]

You guys talk as if Skywest is some new airline that has never seen these types of controversies before. They have and they apparently handle them quite well. Otherwise you would find the prevailing sentiment regarding the company to be poor. In fact the opposite is true. The general sentiment in the company is that they LIKE it . Why should the divisivness that comes with the union be allowed in. Don't try to fix something that aint broke.

It seems to me that 49% of your pilots thought it was broke not too long ago. They can't all be wrong. I guess you call a 51% majority of pilots liking the company a "generally good sentiment"! :0

 

[Capi_Cafre']

The major airline pilots are the majority. Simply put the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few.

It was 50 years or so of adhering to a principle a little more along the lines of "What hurts us one, hurts us all" that got ALPA to the point where it could pi$$ away a half-century of progress in 5 years with a "new school" attitude like yours as its guiding light.

 

[Illinois]

John,

Doubt this would have been an issue at Skywest Airlines, but the result would have been the same even if our system chief forgot the "safety first" motto.

I agree with most of the arguements for a union here, and will vote for representation again. Just don't try to get people fired up (no pun intended) over the situation at ASA. Skywest Inc. may own ASA, but ASA and Skywest Air. aren't synonymous yet!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It was 50 years or so of adhering to a principle a little more along the lines of "What hurts us one, hurts us all" that got ALPA to the point where it could pi$$ away a half-century of progress in 5 years with a "new school" attitude like yours as its guiding light.

I am only making an observation. Perhaps I didn't pontificate well or maybe you are trying to spin.

However, 50 years ago there were no RJ's or regional feed. There was mainline.

It is what it is. In these current times, everyone is trying to protect what is theirs. The by product? Divide and conquer. One should, nonethess ensure that they are proactionary and not reactionary.

I believe we should look at Brand scope, or even the next forward thinking idea. Problem is, I don't know what it is... perhaps another does...