SkyWest ALPA

[sweptback]

Well, no. If they, in theory, gave ASA a 10% pay cut nothing would happen. The union would scream bloody murder, as they should, but nothing would change. The union would then file a lawsuit, five or six months later they would have a day in court. If the company worked it right they could stretch the process out for a long time. The union would eventually win, eventually, but what if the judge did not require the company to make back pay? A union is not the omnificent thing you make it out to be.

No, we have the Railway Labor Act on our side. The scenario that you laid out could never happen. For as many faults as the RLA has, the company can't just change our contract at will.

 

[sstearns2]

No, we have the Railway Labor Act on our side. The scenario that you laid out could never happen. For as many faults as the RLA has, the company can't just change our contract at will.

So, what happens when the checks start coming in 10% short? Does the FBI storm the place and force them to write new checks? Do you think Bush is going to spend any 'political capitol' to hold their feet to the fire? No, ALPA would file a lawsuit. The RLA states that it's illegal, but that doesn't stop it from happening. The RLA just gives you a basis for a lawsuit, which you'd win, but it would take a lot of time and money.

Scott

 

[sstearns2]

I disagree. The skywest pilots have no legal basis to sue, unless they have a binding agreement (or do they?) via the CFR or state law. Whereas the ASA pilots have a CBA via the RLA.

Then again I am not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn.

When some of the F/A's sued the company a couple years ago, the judge treated thier 'agreement' as legally binding. I don't see why the pilot 'agreement' would be any differnent in the eyes of that judge. It might depend on the judge in another case, but the precident is clear.

Scott

 

[Ben Dover]

ALPA does not control growth, a critical component to career advancement. Also recall that most ALPA criticism is anecdotal. Yet you failed to address both expectations and anecdotes.

I am going to play the HOW card.

How is ALPA just a powerless victim.

If ALPA or pilot representation did not exist, then would pilots in this current environement done better? How would the wage and work rule cuts have gone down at AMR, UAL, USAIR, DAL, etc if management had free reign to impose at will. Keep in mind, these pilot groups have voted on concessionary agreements!

Growth? Seems like ALPA has a thing or two to say about scope. And scope and growth go hand in hand.
Failed? ALPA failed to predict the impact of the RJ. A matter of pretty big consequence most would say. ALPA has failed to provide any leadership and vision in this changing industry. Atleast I haven't read anything in my ALPA magazine. All I read is blame on government, and blame on management.

How is ALPA powerless? By claiming victim status. Bad things, bad policy, bad managment keep making life hard for ALPA (or so it says). Boo hoo!! The neat thing about being a victim is nothing is your fault. The trouble is, it also means you are powerless to do anything about it. You're at the mercy of all those bullies who are victimizing you.

I'd love to support ALPA if I could see any leadership on the national level. I just don't see it. I don't hear any new ideas, any vision statments, any lets rally together and solve this problem. And I don't see any new brain power working on any of these problems, just the same old guys doing the same old things they've done since the late '70's. Times are a changin' but I don't see ALPA changin' with them.

 

[Crash Pad]

Hey skywest when you hear ASA guys telling you ALPA will help in a merge... who might they be looking out for?
Check the ALPA airline threads...
1. Schedule complaints
2. Pay complaints
3. management complaints
So yeah go ALPA you can then complain about all of the above and the 2% paycut.
I know pilots have one job in the world and that is complaining... ALPA will give you more to complain about and more channels to complain on.
GO ALPA, GO TEAMSTERS... Let me know when you get them on the property so I can start the first MANAGEMENT IS TRYING TO SCREW US AT SKYWEST thread.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Hey skywest when you hear ASA guys telling you ALPA will help in a merge... who might they be looking out for?

DUH?!?!?!?

 

[embdrvr]

I think the folks at SkyWest can figure this out without people trying to cram opinions down everyone's throats.

I for one will be watching what happens at Pinnacle and Mesaba to see how ALPA handles things. Will ALPA respect the principle of senioirity that they fought so hard for many years ago?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

When some of the F/A's sued the company a couple years ago, the judge treated thier 'agreement' as legally binding. I don't see why the pilot 'agreement' would be any differnent in the eyes of that judge. It might depend on the judge in another case, but the precident is clear.

Scott

Copy that, there may be precedence..... but me no lawyer...

 

[~~~^~~~]

As someone who has volunteered for Committee work within ALPA and who is familiar with the functioning of the union I have to say that I am hopeful that SkyWest merges the ASA operation (which is very unlikely) and well all the opportunity to vote ALPA off the property. ALPA has lost its last 4 representational votes, for good reason.

In my tenure at ASA, ALPA National has done everything possible to reduce the representation I recieve from the union. ALPA changed the constitution and bylaws to exclude acquired airlines like Comair from enjoying the benefits of the merger and fragmentation policy. ALPA jerrymandered the Executive Board so that airlines like FedEx and each major gets their own EVP, while all the regional carriers share a single, ineffective, Board Rep. All the funding for local operations comes from "contingency funds" which is used to keep your local representatives from straying from ALPA National's party line.

Look around the industry. ALPA has worked to establish jets for jobs programs to take Captain slots at "Regionals." ALPA has used our jobs for negotiating fodder and is currently arguing for cuts at small jet opeators to help offset the cuts at majors. At every level our rights are traded to benefit our major airline "brothers" who would just as well see our airlines disappear so they can swoop in and take jobs.

If you wonder why a merger and fragmentation policy is important - consider that that change in the Constitution more than any other factor began the race for the bottom - where we no must bid against eachother for flying.

The local ALPA volunteers are wonderful and ALPA National provides a good organizational structure, but, ALPA National is a dangerous predator - simply the tool of major airline pilots to take what you have, while restraining your local representatives from fighting to protect you.

EMBDRVR is correct to watch the rest of the industry. Did you know members of the Northwest MEC voted against Mesaba's strike benefits? How's that for support?

 

[John Pennekamp]

So, what happens when the checks start coming in 10% short? Does the FBI storm the place and force them to write new checks? Do you think Bush is going to spend any 'political capitol' to hold their feet to the fire? No, ALPA would file a lawsuit. The RLA states that it's illegal, but that doesn't stop it from happening. The RLA just gives you a basis for a lawsuit, which you'd win, but it would take a lot of time and money.

Scott

You are demonstrating your ignorance. The RLA is Federal Law and no contract can be changed outside of Section 6 negotiations. The courts MUST uphold the law, and they will as they have before in other "major disputes".

Here at ASA, if the pay checks came in 10% short, there would be grievances and back pay. Our ALPA contract at ASA requires all pay errors greater than $100 to be rectified within three business days. What do ya think you'd get at Skywest sin union if that happens? I know... 10% poorer.

 

[John Pennekamp]

As someone who has volunteered for Committee work within ALPA and who is familiar with the functioning of the union I have to say that I am hopeful that SkyWest merges the ASA operation (which is very unlikely) and well all the opportunity to vote ALPA off the property. ALPA has lost its last 4 representational votes, for good reason.

In my tenure at ASA, ALPA National has done everything possible to reduce the representation I recieve from the union. ALPA changed the constitution and bylaws to exclude acquired airlines like Comair from enjoying the benefits of the merger and fragmentation policy. ALPA jerrymandered the Executive Board so that airlines like FedEx and each major gets their own EVP, while all the regional carriers share a single, ineffective, Board Rep. All the funding for local operations comes from "contingency funds" which is used to keep your local representatives from straying from ALPA National's party line.

Look around the industry. ALPA has worked to establish jets for jobs programs to take Captain slots at "Regionals." ALPA has used our jobs for negotiating fodder and is currently arguing for cuts at small jet opeators to help offset the cuts at majors. At every level our rights are traded to benefit our major airline "brothers" who would just as well see our airlines disappear so they can swoop in and take jobs.

If you wonder why a merger and fragmentation policy is important - consider that that change in the Constitution more than any other factor began the race for the bottom - where we no must bid against eachother for flying.

The local ALPA volunteers are wonderful and ALPA National provides a good organizational structure, but, ALPA National is a dangerous predator - simply the tool of major airline pilots to take what you have, while restraining your local representatives from fighting to protect you.

EMBDRVR is correct to watch the rest of the industry. Did you know members of the Northwest MEC voted against Mesaba's strike benefits? How's that for support?

That's coming from one of the biggest RJDC supporters at ASA.

Anyone who would pay ALPA dues, then send more money to an organization that is wasting ALPA dues money on a frivolous lawsuit, then complain about how ALPA wastes his dues ought to be taken with a grain of salt!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Growth? Seems like ALPA has a thing or two to say about scope. And scope and growth go hand in hand.
Failed? ALPA failed to predict the impact of the RJ. A matter of pretty big consequence most would say. ALPA has failed to provide any leadership and vision in this changing industry. Atleast I haven't read anything in my ALPA magazine. All I read is blame on government, and blame on management.

What is the impact of the CRJ? Does ALPA decide what aircraft and how they are used in the business model? Sure there is scope, but that is reactionary. Read my reply to Fins. Again, what are your expectations.

How is ALPA powerless? By claiming victim status. Bad things, bad policy, bad managment keep making life hard for ALPA (or so it says). Boo hoo!! The neat thing about being a victim is nothing is your fault. The trouble is, it also means you are powerless to do anything about it. You're at the mercy of all those bullies who are victimizing you.

Perhaps you are coming to an understanding of reality. Air Line pilots do not run alirlines! The RLA and the corporate culture in this country dictate that the airline industry is vital to our economy. Therefore pilots will take what they get.

I'd love to support ALPA if I could see any leadership on the national level. I just don't see it. I don't hear any new ideas, any vision statments, any lets rally together and solve this problem. And I don't see any new brain power working on any of these problems, just the same old guys doing the same old things they've done since the late '70's. Times are a changin' but I don't see ALPA changin' with them.

What do you suggest? Becuase I don't see any new ideas, any vision statements form you.

One of the problems is the ALPA new hire briefing. It is about 30-90 mins long at the regionals. An ALPA guy comes in with 10-20 greasy pizzas and has to convince you ALPA is a good deal before management invites him to leave.

So, in about an hour this ALPA rep tells you how great ALPA is, what they are doing to make your job better. If your company is in section 6 then you will be told how the pay and work rules are better. A little paper work and he is done. Gone.

Now, what message has the ALPA rep given....?

ALPA is a great organization. We are here to protect you. We make your job better. we shield you from the harsh realities of the industry. We are here for you.

This is a pretty vague understanding but it is what pilots get. And blanks spaces are filled in with unrealistic expectations.

It is no surprise that most pilots hate ALPA. They got a raw deal from the beginning.

But you are a big boy now. You can read. You can listen. You can self educate. You can be pragmatic and realistic. You can understand that the airline industry is in total shambles and your company and ALPA cannot be all things to all pilots all the time.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

As someone who has volunteered for Committee work within ALPA and who is familiar with the functioning of the union I have to say that I am hopeful that SkyWest merges the ASA operation (which is very unlikely) and well all the opportunity to vote ALPA off the property. ALPA has lost its last 4 representational votes, for good reason.

In my tenure at ASA, ALPA National has done everything possible to reduce the representation I recieve from the union. ALPA changed the constitution and bylaws to exclude acquired airlines like Comair from enjoying the benefits of the merger and fragmentation policy. ALPA jerrymandered the Executive Board so that airlines like FedEx and each major gets their own EVP, while all the regional carriers share a single, ineffective, Board Rep. All the funding for local operations comes from "contingency funds" which is used to keep your local representatives from straying from ALPA National's party line.

Look around the industry. ALPA has worked to establish jets for jobs programs to take Captain slots at "Regionals." ALPA has used our jobs for negotiating fodder and is currently arguing for cuts at small jet opeators to help offset the cuts at majors. At every level our rights are traded to benefit our major airline "brothers" who would just as well see our airlines disappear so they can swoop in and take jobs.

If you wonder why a merger and fragmentation policy is important - consider that that change in the Constitution more than any other factor began the race for the bottom - where we no must bid against eachother for flying.

The local ALPA volunteers are wonderful and ALPA National provides a good organizational structure, but, ALPA National is a dangerous predator - simply the tool of major airline pilots to take what you have, while restraining your local representatives from fighting to protect you.

EMBDRVR is correct to watch the rest of the industry. Did you know members of the Northwest MEC voted against Mesaba's strike benefits? How's that for support?

Fins,

While your post is well written, it is from the viewpoint of the vocal miniority. The major airline pilots are the majority. Simply put the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few.

I thought J4J was repulsive, and I still don't like it, but if it wasn't for the Brand there would be no ASA, PCL, XJ, Skywest, etc... The major airline pilots contribute more to the Brands revenue than you do. Just like fuelers and catering, regional pilots are employees of vendors. Once that is understood, then we can work on unity and win win solutions... (if we can!)

When the good times come back and growth and career expectations are real, there will be no time of ALPA bashing because the water will be warm and boats to be sailed.....

Everything is realitive...keep it real...

 

[737 Pylt]

lies, lies and more lies!

As someone who has volunteered for Committee work within ALPA and who is familiar with the functioning of the union I have to say that I am hopeful that SkyWest merges the ASA operation (which is very unlikely) and well all the opportunity to vote ALPA off the property. ALPA has lost its last 4 representational votes, for good reason.

In my tenure at ASA, ALPA National has done everything possible to reduce the representation I recieve from the union. ALPA changed the constitution and bylaws to exclude acquired airlines like Comair from enjoying the benefits of the merger and fragmentation policy. ALPA jerrymandered the Executive Board so that airlines like FedEx and each major gets their own EVP, while all the regional carriers share a single, ineffective, Board Rep. All the funding for local operations comes from "contingency funds" which is used to keep your local representatives from straying from ALPA National's party line.

Look around the industry. ALPA has worked to establish jets for jobs programs to take Captain slots at "Regionals." ALPA has used our jobs for negotiating fodder and is currently arguing for cuts at small jet opeators to help offset the cuts at majors. At every level our rights are traded to benefit our major airline "brothers" who would just as well see our airlines disappear so they can swoop in and take jobs.

If you wonder why a merger and fragmentation policy is important - consider that that change in the Constitution more than any other factor began the race for the bottom - where we no must bid against eachother for flying.

The local ALPA volunteers are wonderful and ALPA National provides a good organizational structure, but, ALPA National is a dangerous predator - simply the tool of major airline pilots to take what you have, while restraining your local representatives from fighting to protect you.

EMBDRVR is correct to watch the rest of the industry. Did you know members of the Northwest MEC voted against Mesaba's strike benefits? How's that for support?

Man, the way you spew your lies and drivel, I could nominate you for a management position. This post is almost as rediculous as your lies about non rev travel on DL. Your two faced rhetoric just keeps coming, but you do make for enjoyable reading. Just one question....Why is it that the regionals with the most explosive growth (specifically YOU) in the last 5 years do the most complaining about growth?! Who has benefited the most from our "predatory scope." You know, the ones that "take" captain slots away from regional airlines and put "mainline pilots" in their seats!
737

 

[~~~^~~~]

That's coming from one of the biggest RJDC supporters at ASA.

Anyone who would pay ALPA dues, then send more money to an organization that is wasting ALPA dues money on a frivolous lawsuit, then complain about how ALPA wastes his dues ought to be taken with a grain of salt!

Thanks - I am a supporter of the effort to try to reform (save) ALPA and proud of it.

You have my position wrong on dues money. ALPA is remarkably efficient at a local level, utilizing pilots who's hearts and minds are in the right place. Their service is what makes ALPA great.

It is regrettable that ALPA has to spend a penny defending DFR lawsuits. The RJDC litigation is just one of a dozen, or so, ALPA is currently defending. If the union had a proper structure that allowed small jet pilots any representation, or a balance of power which did not simply allow a powerful MEC to victimize other members, then these costs would not be a necessity. Believe me, I would prefer a system that did not require ALPA members to spend their own money to hire counsel to try to repair the union - that is what the RJDC is fighting for. You are correct that I probably am nuts, probably better just to enjoy the ride and if the union decides to implode - let it - guess I am sentimental that ALPA will return to its core beliefs, like bringing pilots together to bargain collectively and restore the profession. But truly, I'm a nobody and don't matter. What we should be discussing is whether ALPA s the right choice for pilots in the position to chose.

ALPA should not ignore its own rules, deny its members the right to participate in negotiations that control their pay and working conditions - then complain about the cost of defending its egregious actions.