SKYW ALPA convert

[HockleyPilot]

Boy, it's getting good over at the Sapa forums. Get out the popcorn. DL has gone in to hiding.

 

[skypine69]

glad to see MG come out and defend MN. he is a standup guy with more integrity than all the daves rolled into one!

 

[Sedona16]

Boy, it's getting good over at the Sapa forums. Get out the popcorn. DL has gone in to hiding.

Yeah, he's a little worried now how this might play out....people talking about "recalls" and if Livingston doesnt deliver on promises made to brad what becomes of that future position brad had mentioned once or twice. Worst case, he doesnt just retire from skywest with no goto position but he is tossed outta skywest by thousands of angry pilots who saw him for what he was a pseudo-scab.....scab-like without fitting the exact traditional defintion since he didnt physically cross a picket line but did everything else to sell out his peers for his own self gain.

 

[Sedona16]

Sapa rep Batha is hillarious in his interpretations....especially this last one about "adminsitrative leader". From the court info M.E. said he was the administrative head of Sapa. Does that mean Condelissa Rice is the Head of the Bush Whitehouse?

 

[120% Torque]

You guys need to get that organization out of there. After the first sapa guy left to Fedex (Schmidtke), that organization has done nothing but pretend to represent you. I think those individuals who prop up their own agenda need to be called out. In fact if there are any of them looking for major airline jobs I think everybody should know who these guys are and how they hurt the industry and be blocked from carrying their cancer to other carriers. Do any of you Skywest guys have a list of the management wannabes or those causing so much damage over there? On the flip side lets try to help those who supported the industry, perhaps a preferrential hiring list of sorts. I was at Skywest far too long and eventually punched out after seeing it go down hill with Sapa in charge. I think I know who some of these characters are but it would be nice to have a list circulating to help those willing to fight for the pilots and block those who are in bed with management from moving on to other carriers. Bottom line is if they don't support the agenda of all pilots we dont want them at the majors or anywhere else.

 

[skypine69]

i would say that the guys that are really causing the problem dont want to leave. they have it far too cushy here, or in one case, is about to retire. they guys that actually care are trying to leave because it getting so messed up. but while they are here, they are trying to help make it better...kudos to them and they have my full support

 

[SkyNation]

skypine69 and Sedona16,

honest question. have you guys run for SAPA rep? served in the past?

I guarantee that if or when ALPA comes on board, and guys like me will be tempted to mockingly scream 'where are you ALPA' everytime I stub my toe I(a la a certain hillbilly who fell assbackwards into $, but now complains he's not getting enough from SW), that the response will be 'what have YOU done? volunteer your time!'

again, go with what works best, I always say.

 

[MYFpilot]

skypine69 and Sedona16,


again, go with what works best, I always say.

...And that is SAPA?

I think referring to SAPA as the SkyWest Airlines Pilot "Association" is an insult to "Associations" all over the world.

 

[SSDD]

SkyNation, your feelings towards ALPA aside, are you really that naive? A lot of us were involved in SAPA way back at the begining, actually before it was called SAPA. But we saw it for what it is, a management ploy. Have SAPA do what you want, and then advertise it as: "SAPA and management have agreed on..."

There is no point in supporting SAPA. What is happening to MN has happened to other guys who tried to stand up against management. In my opinion SAPA is the worst thing that could have happened to the pilot group because management uses SAPA to hide their true intentions.

Since there is a confidentiality agreement, and certain guys with ulterior motives, the average pilot has no idea what's going on.

 

[skypine69]

skynation

yes. sapa is a joke. make no mistake about that. it is a system which management uses to make the pilots feel good. BH gets what BH wants. every once in awhile he throws the pilots a bone. alpa aint gods gift the world but it has to be better than sapa. there is one reason for that. the threat of a strike. i dont ever want to have a strike, but i can tell you that when it comes down to it that is all labor has. remove labor from the equation and management sometimes listens.

 

[SkyNation]

I don't remember ever defending SAPA. I don't. I just don't share the enthusiasm for ALPA. been there, done that, got the stickers.

 

[Sedona16]

skypine69 and Sedona16,

honest question. have you guys run for SAPA rep? served in the past?

I guarantee that if or when ALPA comes on board, and guys like me will be tempted to mockingly scream 'where are you ALPA' everytime I stub my toe I(a la a certain hillbilly who fell assbackwards into $, but now complains he's not getting enough from SW), that the response will be 'what have YOU done? volunteer your time!'

again, go with what works best, I always say.

I did not run for a rep position but I most certainly have gotten involved. Along with Dave B who has since left Skywest I researched voting software to separate from voting being conducted via skywestonline. Unfortunatley after much research and several promising vendors (third party independant that would conduct the vote) Sapa elected to go with a system where sapa conducts the votes and act as adminstrators. In my opinion when they (people like Jim B who as previously described have their own agenda) are conducting a vote on something they want passed and where an adminstrator has the power to register votes it brings validity into question and once again further demonsted the tight fisted control sapa keeps. The obvious question is WHY? I think a discerning mind will be able to answer than without to much thinking. Ill probably come off as a conspiracy theorist but I'll say it anyway, with my knowledge of how some of the guys such as Mr. Black operate I believe some votes were not conducted properly and their is a more than fair chance tampering took place. Just my opinion though. But I digress...

I also researched info regarding legal representation that would be separate from skywest management. Sapa voted to not allow this (I believe they voted this type of legal representation down because of what their boss whispered in their ear.....no other reason for this not to be implemented). You can ask Dave B more about this if you like. Of course you must be aware that management along with sapa have remained staunch in their position that pilots not be allowed to bring their own attorney in for any disciplanary actions. Ask DD how well Jim B stuck up for him during his "trial" btw.

I was involved in several other things but after five years of trying and seeing time after time after time after time Sapa disregard many suggestions not only from myself but others, and survey after survey after survey get ignored (ie a strong majority of pilots said they want a commuter policy but Sapa in the end said we think its better what we have now.....and maybe they really believed that but the point is the pilots spoke and Sapa turned around and did the opposite, totallly disregarding those they purport to represent). After alot of trying you can only do so much then recognize what some people are only now finding out....this group who has slithered into some sapa positions are not there for the pilots, they are there for their own personal gain....end of story. Sure they will try to tell you how they have argued with brad, even swearing a time or two or that it really sucks being them working so hard but truth be told they have it pretty good and want to protect what they have now and THEIR future interests. Apathy sets in with those who have tried to make a difference but are scolded by the good ol boys club and told about how it really works...."dont rock the boat, who do you think you are?!" These same guys are not really ever sticking their neck out because their position is basically to protect managements position. Now those brave individuals like MN, now thats impressive! They have backbone and a sense of right and wrong and values. A desire to really do the best for their peers. Management wannabes dont fear for their job or next checkride, if they screw up the company has every reason to keep them around.....they are "safe". The guy that goes against the will of management in any way, those are the ones who are doing the difficult thing and feel the heat. This is why there are so many hundreds of pro Alpa guys at Skywest that you never hear from or even see on the message boards, they dont want to get in managements crosshairs....they are there though and growing in number every day, ready to take a chance on something other than Sapa which if you look at their record up and down (contrary to how sapa will try to dress it up and disquise it) it sucks....I mean really sucks when you look at work rule changes and tail between leg "negotiations" only to turn around and sell the will of management once again. Sure its easy to to say get involved but for those of us who have tried and seen roadblocks put up anywhere we have tried to make serious positive change eventually you go looking for something else, an organization that will look out and answer to the pilots. Once again Alpa is not perfect but is IS the best product on the market to what needs to be done right now. It can be tailored to our group and our MEC could truly be one of the best. The Sapa guys like to point to stalled talks with companies that are hurting but there are many Alpa success stories never mentioned.....the last five years the whole industry has been hit hard so there has not been many huge successes harely anywhere. Dont confuse that with the Sapa vs Alpa arguement though. Sapa IS management. A skywest pilots Alpa MEC is the pilots of skywest airlines.

UPA was an attempt at an inhouse union but just like now the Livingstons, and Aldens, and Cains at the time were sitting behind their computer all day (remember skywest management gives them time at home to fight against these things....in the case of Dave Cain for days and nights on end) getting paid to shut down any organization that might remove their unrestricted and unaccountable powers. Hope that answers your question on whether I have tried to get involved and why myself and many others have thrown our hands up and are FINISHED with the likes of Sapa. Like the guy above said, they are a cancer and it has at least for now infected our pilot group causing apathy, anger, confusion (the "Daves" as some are calling them are famous for this with their antics of shell games and logical fallacies). Time to move on folks. Alot of history the new guys dont know about but if we do end up stuck with Sapa they will learn....but only after 1000 new guys are on the property cursing the evil alpa that Jim B told them about in groundschool or that didnt get them all they wanted at Mesa so its bad and Sapa is better.

I have pages and pages of more info on Sapa's inneffectiveness on my now retired computer. I will try light it up to give even more insight. Too bad sapa destroyed all the comments from the old message board. I promise you there would be a serious roast using thier own commments and cheerleading on what have turned out being HORRIBLE policy and agreements......and the saga continues.

 

[Nightrain_080]

skypine69 and Sedona16,

honest question. have you guys run for SAPA rep? served in the past?

I guarantee that if or when ALPA comes on board, and guys like me will be tempted to mockingly scream 'where are you ALPA' everytime I stub my toe I(a la a certain hillbilly who fell assbackwards into $, but now complains he's not getting enough from SW), that the response will be 'what have YOU done? volunteer your time!'

again, go with what works best, I always say.

Don't distort the facts. Your throwing out a argument with no teeth. As long as Alpa maintains what we have and slowly improves it for the next 100 years it would beat sapa hands down.

No one here at SkyWest that is pro Alpa thinks it is a cure all. I am tired of all the complaints about ALPA from this or that carrier. If management wants to play hard ball while we are represented by Sapa or Alpa they will do what they want. At least our MEC and local domocile reps will have a chance to better and maintain our quality of life.

With SAPA our quality of life and Pay has not improved at least in the last 6 years. It has gone down hill. It continues to go down and is picking up steam. The last fiasco is the 57 PIC's that will be paid cancellation pay but no promises for the future. F-That.

Sapa sucks because it is uncle rico (BH), JB, the souless dave's strong arming everyone minus M.N. and M.G. Both righteous Studs inside and out of Aviation. The tide is getting high and the big waves are coming soon.

 

[SkyNation]

With SAPA our quality of life and Pay has not improved at least in the last 6 years. It has gone down hill.

if you took a poll at ASA, Mesa, Comair, et al about how their QOL and pay has gone over the last 6 years, what do you think they'd say? do you know that you make as much or more than pilots at those companies with the same seniority? your future looks brighter as well, should you chose to stay here. also, though some complaints are certainly valid, I'd venture that you are treated better here talking everything in total compared to them. Doesn't what has happened there and at others give you any pause at all? Before you shout back about what here should give me pause, know that some things do. But I have to be realistic and compare our overall package to what others have.

I like it here and realize that while we have our problems, in the end our deal is better.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

!!

just because I don't endorse ALPA doesn't mean that I'm a rah! rah! guy for SAPA. I wish some people were outside of the box enough to be of the opposite stance. Just because you trash SAPA doesn't mean that ALPA is the answer, and vice-versa.

You "don't endorse ALPA"....You not only don't endorse them, you bash ALPA every chance you get! Even you(and Newwoman, et al) should be able to see that SAPA is not working on our behalf, and this little bit of exposure is only the tip of the iceberg. We already tried the inhouse union thing, and it failed...so what do you suggest with your "out of the box stance"?????

 

[SkyNation]

I don't know what the better answer is. I just know, based on results, that ALPA isn't it automatically, by default, or for any other reason. That's like saying that because you opposed Bush you must have had a hard-on for Kerry, or vice-versa. I'm hoping we have better options than just SAPA or ALPA, as if it must be one or the other, and realistic about what we have now and what the market will bear.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

if you took a poll at ASA, Mesa, Comair, et al about how their QOL and pay has gone over the last 6 years, what do you think they'd say? do you know that you make as much or more than pilots at those companies with the same seniority? your future looks brighter as well, should you chose to stay here. also, though some complaints are certainly valid, I'd venture that you are treated better here talking everything in total compared to them. Doesn't what has happened there and at others give you any pause at all? Before you shout back about what here should give me pause, know that some things do. But I have to be realistic and compare our overall package to what others have.

I like it here and realize that while we have our problems, in the end our deal is better.

Apparently you didn't realize that Comair was far ahead of Skyw in pay, work rules, and benefits until being forced into concessions under a bankrupt DELTA... ASA is still ahead of us on 700 rates, after also having to deal with the same bankrupt DELTA situation, and now our whipsaw situation under their new ownership. MESA is the bottom of the barrel...when I started here our management used to tell us we were "at the top of the industry". Then, as time passed we were told "we were above average". Now you want to compare us to the bottom??? How about comparing us to the top of the industry like Horizon or XJet... Skyw Inc. makes more than both put together, and yet our pay, work rules, and benefits are much less! Try to inform yourself and not just listen to what mngmnt spoon feed you.
"Skyw Airlines and its subsidiary, ASA, turned the biggest profit margins in the ENTIRE AIRLINE INDUSTRY during the 3rd qtr, 12.3% and 12.1% respectively"(you can verify this on page 67 of Aviation Int'l News Feb. 2007 issue)!

 

[Nightrain_080]

I don't know what the better answer is. I just know, based on results, that ALPA isn't it automatically, by default, or for any other reason. That's like saying that because you opposed Bush you must have had a hard-on for Kerry, or vice-versa. I'm hoping we have better options than just SAPA or ALPA, as if it must be one or the other, and realistic about what we have now and what the market will bear.

Don't worry I don't get a H O for ALPA. I see your point. Although Sapa is making my wank go soft and it isn't going to get better with sapa.

Management and Sapa have already put us in our position today, not ALPA. We are all fulfilling our job description in full. Lets get with the times, its 2007 and we are still getting year 2000 rates for pay. Management needs to quit crying poverty at every end.

The proposal for representation by ALPA isn't going away. A formal in house Union would be the best route considering we have 2700 pilots.
It may be too late for an in house anything. Sapa already flushed the blue juice plenty of times.

Skywest inc. has the belt out, gloves off and has been spanking the market for quite some time. The longer we wait, the more over a barrel we are in getting any real compensation.

 

[Nightrain_080]

if you took a poll at ASA, Mesa, Comair, et al about how their QOL and pay has gone over the last 6 years, what do you think they'd say? do you know that you make as much or more than pilots at those companies with the same seniority? your future looks brighter as well, should you chose to stay here. also, though some complaints are certainly valid, I'd venture that you are treated better here talking everything in total compared to them. Doesn't what has happened there and at others give you any pause at all? Before you shout back about what here should give me pause, know that some things do. But I have to be realistic and compare our overall package to what others have.

I like it here and realize that while we have our problems, in the end our deal is better.

Are you saying that if you worked at PorkSky Airlines and flew a 777 for $77/hr and another airline like Skytrailer airlines paid their pilots $70/hr to fly a 777 you would be fine at PorkSky?

There is nothing wrong about wanting things to improve for the future and especially if your planning on staying around. Talk to some of the pilots who have topped out and are not going anywhere. Do you want to stay at an airline with no cost of living raise for the rest of your career, whether it be 10 or 30 years?

Yes I agree a lot of things here are great. I am not complaining about what I don't have. I am complaining at what is going away. How can you turn a blind eye and watch QOL and Pay continue to slide? Anyone care to start a list?

Management is not going to do anything about it. 1% raise and a fuzzy math override for the 700/900 just isn't showing a lot of love. The majority of this and any pilot group needs some support and appreciation shown in our direction.

 

[rtmcfi]

I don't remember ever defending SAPA. I don't. I just don't share the enthusiasm for ALPA. been there, done that, got the stickers.

Well, it looks like we have something common, as I have never defended SAPA either. Where we differ is ALPA. Been there, done that, got the sticker, and I still think it is the best (albeit, by no means perfect) choice for SkyWest pilots.

 

[rtmcfi]

if you took a poll at ASA, Mesa, Comair, et al about how their QOL and pay has gone over the last 6 years, what do you think they'd say? do you know that you make as much or more than pilots at those companies with the same seniority? your future looks brighter as well, should you chose to stay here. also, though some complaints are certainly valid, I'd venture that you are treated better here talking everything in total compared to them. Doesn't what has happened there and at others give you any pause at all? Before you shout back about what here should give me pause, know that some things do. But I have to be realistic and compare our overall package to what others have.

I like it here and realize that while we have our problems, in the end our deal is better.

Substitute FEDEX and ExpressJet for your picks. Ask the same questions.
Ask CAL and FEDEX why they came back to ALPA.

I like it here and realize that while we have our problems, in the end our deal could be better. I choose not to have my future dictated to me. I want a voice at the table. I want that voice paid for, and beholden to me. ALPA, while far from perfect, is the only viable, effective choice that I can see.

 

[rtmcfi]

Sapa rep Batha is hillarious in his interpretations....especially this last one about "adminsitrative leader". From the court info M.E. said he was the administrative head of Sapa. Does that mean Condelissa Rice is the Head of the Bush Whitehouse?

JB has been the biggest disapointment to me. I am ashamed to say I voted for him. I cannot ever recall being so hoodwinked as a voter. Talk about a turncoat. I will be leading the charge to oust him when he is up for re-election.

 

[PCL_128]

A formal in house Union would be the best route considering we have 2700 pilots.
It may be too late for an in house anything. Sapa already flushed the blue juice plenty of times.

Your pilot group's average income wouldn't allow for enough resources for an effective in-house union, 2700 pilots or not. Dues would have to be excessive (4+ percent). Remember, the A-carriers heavily subsidize the regionals within ALPA. None of the ALPA regionals could ever come close to funding themselves, including the larger ones like EGL and ASA. Skywest would be no different.

 

[Weasil]

JB has been the biggest disapointment to me. I am ashamed to say I voted for him. I cannot ever recall being so hoodwinked as a voter. Talk about a turncoat. I will be leading the charge to oust him when he is up for re-election.

I second that. I would vote to recall him right now if it came to that.

 

[Sedona16]

JB has been the biggest disapointment to me. I am ashamed to say I voted for him. I cannot ever recall being so hoodwinked as a voter. Talk about a turncoat. I will be leading the charge to oust him when he is up for re-election.

Well I wouldnt beat yourself up too badly about it. Although not too educated J.B. does know how to lay it on thick when running for a position. Wish we could pull some of his comments from when he was running. Its the "I'm going to go in to management swinging until I get you guys what you want and need" rhetoric that gets him elected....then once an incumbant he either dissappears (this is what we commonly refer to as a ME....or Mike E if you will) or does a 180 fighting for the "needs" of management cause this ship is taking on water and if we even want jobs in two years guys like him gotta make the painful decisions....yada yada. Anyway, bottom line is that when he was stumpin to get elected he told you what you wanted to hear.

 

[Sedona16]

Livingston and his cronies speaking to the general members who have been complaining about how miserably inept and unresponsive sapa has been are told the following:

"instead of complaining about how inneffective
Sapa is why dont you run for a position and get involved?....use the representative structure that is in place now until if/when some other organization is desired by the majority of pilots"

So someone is very upfront about how skeptical they are about sapa's ability to get things done but throws their towel in the ring anyway and is elected president by the general membership that are tired of the sapa good ol boys club.

Livingston and his cronnies now:

"You pro-Alpa people coming in here trying to infiltrate and overthrough my sapa, how dare you?!"

Livington, Black, Alden and Eisenstat TIME TO GO!!!

 

[Gnarloooo]

Livington, Black, Alden and Eisenstat TIME TO GO!!!

Praise Jesus! The Lord will make it so!

Then those asses will have to make their 105 hours from PBS forced flying just like the rest of us. Serves them right for shoving PBS up our collective cabooses in the first place.

 

[pipers]

As a former fence sitter........

There is absolutely no way skywest would have the pay and QOL that it has today if it were not for the work, sweat and dues of other ALPA members...

While I have slowly swung my feet over to the other side of the fence, it is no part due to the scare tactics (fins, etc.) from many people on this board. SkyWest is a wonderful place to be and many just want to make it better... Not many buy the argument that "you'll get yours if you don't vote ALPA"!! "JA is just waiting to screw you like he is the ASA folks" If the ALPA vote should fail, I am not too worried that there is some conspiracy to eliminate my job in ten years....we have way too many senior pilots with no hint of that idea in the air

That being said my vote is coming down to an obligation to this industry and those that have fought before, the belief that it will make things better at skywest in the long run (even if it not immediately), and the belief that we all need to be united as professionals if we are ever going to stand up managment. It would be a great year if multiple contracts were due and all the MEC were working together....

My .02$

 

[USCtrojan]

As a former fence sitter........

There is absolutely no way skywest would have the pay and QOL that it has today if it were not for the work, sweat and dues of other ALPA members...

While I have slowly swung my feet over to the other side of the fence, it is no part due to the scare tactics (fins, etc.) from many people on this board. SkyWest is a wonderful place to be and many just want to make it better... Not many buy the argument that "you'll get yours if you don't vote ALPA"!! "JA is just waiting to screw you like he is the ASA folks" If the ALPA vote should fail, I am not too worried that there is some conspiracy to eliminate my job in ten years....we have way too many senior pilots with no hint of that idea in the air

That being said my vote is coming down to an obligation to this industry and those that have fought before, the belief that it will make things better at skywest in the long run (even if it not immediately), and the belief that we all need to be united as professionals if we are ever going to stand up managment. It would be a great year if multiple contracts were due and all the MEC were working together....

My .02$

Amen.

Trojan

 

[SkyNation]

As a former fence sitter........

There is absolutely no way skywest would have the pay and QOL that it has today if it were not for the work, sweat and dues of other ALPA members...

you give ALPA the credit for what the market has, does and will dictate. It doesn't matter who negotiated, the results are a reaction to what the market will bear. people who suggest that we'd all make Mesa wages (approved by ALPA via their contract, BTW) or worse assume that we're all idiots and would do this job for whatever we were given. give yourself more credit than that. it's ludicrous to suggest that without the all-mighty ALPA that we'd make $5 bucks/hr. and work 20 days/mo. no we wouldn't. nobody would do this job for that. so employers have to react to market forces to attract and retain employees, while still remaining profitable. that is not a reaction to unions, but to the market. SkyWest has reacted over the years to keep pace with the industry to attract and retain pilots, not to keep up with ALPA. If that were true then everyone else would negotiate for A, then get it. Then we'd negotiate for A, then get it. Then B, then C, and so on. Truth is we have lots of things at SkyWest that are better, so who's trying to keep up with who? BH et al will always give us what they feel like will attract quality employees while keeping the company competitive in the marketplace, whether others in the market are represented by ALPA, SAG, the Girl Scouts or the United Federation of Elephant Dung Scooper Uppers.

That being said my vote is coming down to an obligation to this industry and those that have fought before, the belief that it will make things better at skywest in the long run (even if it not immediately),

I'd love to know what would be better immediately? nothing will change, for years.

and the belief that we all need to be united as professionals if we are ever going to stand up managment.

classic 'Us vs. Them' union mentality. Good luck. While things at SkyWest are by no means perfect, I've worked at a union carrier, have you? are you really that eager to foster and promote that kind of work environment? The feelings of anger, resentment, and wanting to 'stick it' to management will absolutely serve to the detriment of this company.

If you were going to buy an insurance policy, would you feel like it was valuable to hear from others who have bought that policy about what their experience with that company was like? Start asking everyone you can that has come to SkyWest from ALPA carriers about their experience. Don't be simplistic enough to just discredit all of them as wanting a fast upgrade, just happy to fly, etc. Those are stupid arguments and are insulting to all who seek a better life for themselves, their family, etc. by coming here, and are contrary to the supposed good intentions of those support this drive.

If we didn't have things good here, I wouldn't hold the position I do. If I worked for Mesa and wasn't represented, you bet I'd be on board. But they have reacted poorly to the market, and ALPA has allowed it. I don't blame ALPA, because they don't dictate market forces-and they don't prevent them either. That is what people need to understand. Bad things may happen at your company, ALPA or not. ALPA doesn't cause them to happen, and they sure as hell can't prevent them. So in the end, go with what works. Talk to your fellow pilots here that are former ALPA. Talk to guys at other regionals in your same seniority, seat, AC, etc. Compare. I have 3 friends at Express, 2 at Mesa, and 1 each at AWAC, Pinnacle. In our discussions on this topic they all generally agree that we have it pretty good at SkyWest.

I support ALPA for all efforts made towards safety in our profession. If they left it at that, I'd be all for it. It's when they try to dictate and run the business end of things that I diverge.