Skybus update anyone?

[BSkin]

They must be doing trial runs of their routes, as I heard one on CLE center today (12th).

 

[Philerup]

If airlines like Skybus grow and thrive, your "career" choice airlines will also have to pay their pilots Skybus wages in order to be able to compete or they will be out of business. So on one hand you're rationalizing that its OK for someone to take a job at Skybus if it allows them to "see their family" for example, but then you're saying that airlines like Continental, American, and Southwest are good career choice airlines. Unfortunately, I suspect choices like working for Skybus in order to "build experience" & "pay the bills" and eventually having a good "career" job at the Continental's of the world are going to be mutually exclusive. I hope I am wrong.

You are viewing the industry from a viewpoint of a limited size pie, where one airline must steal a piece of the pie from another for business. It may be valid. However, what if there is enough to go around. We in this country should like growth and competition, it is the foundation of a free market. If the good airlines have an embargo against hiring Skybus pilots, then they will be stuck at Skybus and SB will have no reason to raise wages because they will have a captive pilot group. However, if it is a place where a pilot can go and get experience and a rapid upgrade on an Airbus and move on, they will have to raise wages to retain labor. If you want to see wages at Skybus come up, the best thing you can do is hire Skybus pilots. If they can not retain their pilot force, they will be forced to raise wages and improve working conditions. Don't be myopic, trust that an expanding airline market is a good thing. After the last 5 years we should all be thrilled that there is enough demand for someone to risk a startup. I would rather have startups competing with legacys than live through another 5 years of a stagnant industry.

 

[Shrek]

You are viewing the industry from a viewpoint of a limited size pie, where one airline must steal a piece of the pie from another for business. It may be valid. However, what if there is enough to go around. We in this country should like growth and competition, it is the foundation of a free market. If the good airlines have an embargo against hiring Skybus pilots, then they will be stuck at Skybus and SB will have no reason to raise wages because they will have a captive pilot group. However, if it is a place where a pilot can go and get experience and a rapid upgrade on an Airbus and move on, they will have to raise wages to retain labor. If you want to see wages at Skybus come up, the best thing you can do is hire Skybus pilots. If they can not retain their pilot force, they will be forced to raise wages and improve working conditions. Don't be myopic, trust that an expanding airline market is a good thing. After the last 5 years we should all be thrilled that there is enough demand for someone to risk a startup. I would rather have startups competing with legacys than live through another 5 years of a stagnant industry.

LOL..............Well at least that was ORIGINAL................

 

[Pocono Pilot]

Having had the opportunity to live in Europe for a few months, I saw first hand how successful the Ryanair business model works. Southwest is just the beginning of what is to come here in the US.

Now Skybus will take this to a whole new level of cheap tickets for passengers. I have a good feeling about Skybus being very successful.

I would love to get in on the ground floor with this company. I think the few legacy airlines here in the US are going to have trouble competing with Skybus and Southwest.

 

[ualdriver]

You are viewing the industry from a viewpoint of a limited size pie, where one airline must steal a piece of the pie from another for business. It may be valid.

Not only might it be valid- it is valid. Would you argue that LCC's have been stealing market share from the legacies, or vice versa?

However, what if there is enough to go around. We in this country should like growth and competition, it is the foundation of a free market.

I love living in a free market. That's why Skybus, Allegiant, Virgin America pilots have every right to work for any wage they want. Just don't try to tell me that it won't apply downward pressure to domestic narrowbody pilot wages.

If the good airlines have an embargo against hiring Skybus pilots, then they will be stuck at Skybus and SB will have no reason to raise wages because they will have a captive pilot group. However, if it is a place where a pilot can go and get experience and a rapid upgrade on an Airbus and move on, they will have to raise wages to retain labor.

You mean like what is happening at JetBlue for the past 6 years or so? No hiriing embargo there but have you seen their E190 rates, even after their "raises"? Have their A320 rates even been adjusted for several years of inflation? Did you see their attempt to "improve" working conditions for all of us by trying to push transcon turns through the FAA? So do you still buy the argument that Skybus management will do the right thing in the future? Allegiant seems to be doing pretty well and growing. No hiring embargo there. Is there any attempt to bring their wages to anything even resembling industry standard?


If you want to see wages at Skybus come up, the best thing you can do is hire Skybus pilots. If they can not retain their pilot force, they will be forced to raise wages and improve working conditions.

See above.

Don't be myopic

Funny. Should I be saying that to you?


trust that an expanding airline market is a good thing. After the last 5 years we should all be thrilled that there is enough demand for someone to risk a startup.

Actually there really isn't much of an expanding airline market. I don't know if you examine airline economics, but historically airline growth in the US follows the growth of US GDP, which seems to be slowing this year but I digress. Typically that number falls in the 3% range, whic is about what a "healthy" airline could expect to grow in a typical year. Do you think an airline like Skybus is only planning on growing 3% a year or so? I think not. So where is all that extra growth going to come from? From other airlines- they're hoping anyway (maybe some stimulation but it won't be enough). So basically, they're going to use discount airline pilot wages to subsidize their bottom line so that they can steal market share from airlines like mine? Pardon some of us who are struggling just to keep what we have if we're less than thrilled........

 

[Philerup]

LOL..............Well at least that was ORIGINAL................

Thanks, I think. It is just how I see it. For the last five years I have seen the industry stagnate. Airlines lay off, go out of business, pilots on the street. Skybus may not be great, but it is good to see things happening. Airlines are calling back furloughees, the lagacys are starting to hire, people are throwing money at startups. Whether you like Skybus or not, I am happy to see an industry looking to grow, not contract. It is a welcome change after struggling for work over the last five years. Instead of looking to find reasons to dislike or be negative, look at the positive aspects. There will always be competition and threats to your employer, in any industry. You can't change the fact that Skybus is starting up, however I wouldn't recommend wasting your energy at hating them. It would be energy better spent trying to make your airline a place that can compete* and win loyal customers. ( *not implying that your airline can't compete )

 

[Philerup]

Would you argue that LCC's have been stealing market share from the legacies

No, I would argue that they have been winning market share. Stealing implies illegality. If the LCC's are eating your lunch, then look to your organization as to why. Maybe they aren't "stealing" market share, maybe you are losing market share. Skybus will either succeed or fail, you have nothing to do with it other than helping your airline beat them in competition. It is what it is, and plenty of people are going to go to work there. I would agree the wages suck, however I would not make moral judgements on people willing to go work there. It is the law of the jungle. Throughout all industries, there are people willing to work for less at a new company to try and make it successful, and win market share. The airlines are no different. It would be great if this were 30 years ago and we could all go to work for a legacy that had a regulated market share. It isn't, and there is no use spreading ill will torwards your fellow pilots because you do not like the reality of the airline industry as it stands today.

 

[Shrek]

Having had the opportunity to live in Europe for a few months, I saw first hand how successful the Ryanair business model works. Southwest is just the beginning of what is to come here in the US.

Now Skybus will take this to a whole new level of cheap tickets for passengers. I have a good feeling about Skybus being very successful.

I would love to get in on the ground floor with this company. I think the few legacy airlines here in the US are going to have trouble competing with Skybus and Southwest.

With attitudes out there like these.............forget about a recovery.

 

[Shrek]

Thanks, I think. It is just how I see it. For the last five years I have seen the industry stagnate. Airlines lay off, go out of business, pilots on the street. Skybus may not be great, but it is good to see things happening. Airlines are calling back furloughees, the lagacys are starting to hire, people are throwing money at startups. Whether you like Skybus or not, I am happy to see an industry looking to grow, not contract. It is a welcome change after struggling for work over the last five years. Instead of looking to find reasons to dislike or be negative, look at the positive aspects. There will always be competition and threats to your employer, in any industry. You can't change the fact that Skybus is starting up, however I wouldn't recommend wasting your energy at hating them. It would be energy better spent trying to make your airline a place that can compete* and win loyal customers. ( *not implying that your airline can't compete )

FAIR competition is expected in any business. I welcome that - and growth but at what cost?! I assume you think it would be fair for somebody to undercut Skybus in 2 years with pilots making 10,000 per year (don't scoff at that figure - just ask a Mesaba pilot or educate yourself on that saga)??

What makes you think that it can't happen to you? As a result of your competition model - all majors will eventually make 65/hour in the left seat and horrible work rules.............this is what you are in favor of.

THIS is why you get the strong feelings about a company startup like SkyBus.

 

[ualdriver]

No, I would argue that they have been winning market share. Stealing implies illegality. If the LCC's are eating your lunch, then look to your organization as to why.

Thanks for correcting me Philerup, they aren't stealing market share. They're using low pilot pay to subsidize their bottom line and EARN market share. And you're right, I should look to my organization as to why- and here's what I found. I found narrowbody Captains at my once bankrupt airline making twice what a Skybus Captain makes. We went through bankruptcy with a gun to our head to come down to the low bar set by the "old" LCC's, but we still didn't sell out for 65K a year for a narrowbody Captain job. So when I "look to my organization as to why," I see an airline that will have a difficult time competing with the likes of Skybus because our pilots aren't willing to subsidize our company's bottom line to EARN market share.

You have nothing to do with it other than helping your airline beat them in competition

Great, should all of us out here flying for UAL, AMR, SWA, Airtran, etc., go to our management and offer to work for pathetic Skybus wages so we can have some hope of competing now, or should we wait until later when they have 100 planes?

It is what it is, and plenty of people are going to go to work there. I would agree the wages suck, however I would not make moral judgements on people willing to go work there.

I won't (reread the post I wrote a few posts above this one, 1/6th of the way down), but unfortunately for guys that work at Skybus, others will. One day, these Skybus guys are going to get tired of taking home $3000/month for flying Captain on a 130+ seat A319 and are going to start applying for jobs at the very LCC and legacy carriers whose pay rates and work rules they're helping to drag down. Guys that sit on hiring boards are union guys and tend to have a clue as to what is going on in the industry. Personally, I wouldn't want to have Skybus on my resume, applying at a union carrier job, while guys who had the ba11s to hold the line at carriers like Comair, for one of many examples, are competiting against, me- but hey that's just me. Unfortunately, whether it's right or wrong some "ill will" may come to fruition at some of their future interviews, especially if they succeed in putting pressure on the rest of us out here just trying to hold on to what we have. So it doesn't matter what moral judgements you or I make, I guess it just matters what judgements the guy at the other end of the interview table makes, again right or wrong.



It is the law of the jungle. Throughout all industries, there are people willing to work for less at a new company to try and make it successful, and win market share.

That's true, but I can think of any examples where any professional would willingly undercut his fellow professionals by 50% just to get ahead. I know many professionals from college, for example, who started at new companies (Computer guys, MBA's, one occupational therapist off the top of my head), but they didn't undercut their fellow professionals by 50%. Go figure.


The airlines are no different. It would be great if this were 30 years ago and we could all go to work for a legacy that had a regulated market share.

It would be really nice if we worked for a legacy that competed with other airlines based upon such novel ideas as safety, schedule, customer service, but instead what we have are legacies and the "old LCC's" competiting not on the above, but on who can pay their pilots the least so they can undercut their competitors and "EARN" market share.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. I'm repeating the same points over and over. Philerup, if you aspire to fly for an airline someday, keep hailing airlines like Skybus as good for the industry, and enjoy busting your butt working your way up for that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow- $3500 bucks a month take home (if that) to fly Captain on a 30 million dollar jet. I hope your significant other has a good job because you won't be saving much for your kid's education or putting much away for retirement. I've always felt that airline pilots are overpaid, anyway. Hopefully airlines like Skybus will fix that problem in the up and coming years. (note the sarcasm in the last two sentences)

 

[Philerup]

It is what it is and we can't change it. What I am mostly suggesting is not spending too much time hating the Skybus pilots, whomever they may be. But fine, if you want to that is fine with me.

BTW, it isn't all about fares. I generally pay more internationally to fly on an American carrier. A lot of times it is about reliability, customer service, and loyalty. That is what I was suggesting we can all do to help our airlines compete, make our place stand out.

I think I am done with this thread also. Skybus is a small startup and apparently heralds the end of aviation as we know it. It must suck to be the scapegoat of the entire industry. Who knew a small airline startup was that powerful.

 

[Shrek]

No, I would argue that they have been winning market share. Stealing implies illegality. If the LCC's are eating your lunch, then look to your organization as to why.

Thanks for correcting me Philerup, they aren't stealing market share. They're using low pilot pay to subsidize their bottom line and EARN market share. And you're right, I should look to my organization as to why- and here's what I found. I found narrowbody Captains at my once bankrupt airline making twice what a Skybus Captain makes. We went through bankruptcy with a gun to our head to come down to the low bar set by the "old" LCC's, but we still didn't sell out for 65K a year for a narrowbody Captain job. So when I "look to my organization as to why," I see an airline that will have a difficult time competing with the likes of Skybus because our pilots aren't willing to subsidize our company's bottom line to EARN market share.

You have nothing to do with it other than helping your airline beat them in competition

Great, should all of us out here flying for UAL, AMR, SWA, Airtran, etc., go to our management and offer to work for pathetic Skybus wages so we can have some hope of competing now, or should we wait until later when they have 100 planes?

It is what it is, and plenty of people are going to go to work there. I would agree the wages suck, however I would not make moral judgements on people willing to go work there.

I won't (reread the post I wrote a few posts above this one, 1/6th of the way down), but unfortunately for guys that work at Skybus, others will. One day, these Skybus guys are going to get tired of taking home $3000/month for flying Captain on a 130+ seat A319 and are going to start applying for jobs at the very LCC and legacy carriers whose pay rates and work rules they're helping to drag down. Guys that sit on hiring boards are union guys and tend to have a clue as to what is going on in the industry. Personally, I wouldn't want to have Skybus on my resume, applying at a union carrier job, while guys who had the ba11s to hold the line at carriers like Comair, for one of many examples, are competiting against, me- but hey that's just me. Unfortunately, whether it's right or wrong some "ill will" may come to fruition at some of their future interviews, especially if they succeed in putting pressure on the rest of us out here just trying to hold on to what we have. So it doesn't matter what moral judgements you or I make, I guess it just matters what judgements the guy at the other end of the interview table makes, again right or wrong.



It is the law of the jungle. Throughout all industries, there are people willing to work for less at a new company to try and make it successful, and win market share.

That's true, but I can think of any examples where any professional would willingly undercut his fellow professionals by 50% just to get ahead. I know many professionals from college, for example, who started at new companies (Computer guys, MBA's, one occupational therapist off the top of my head), but they didn't undercut their fellow professionals by 50%. Go figure.


The airlines are no different. It would be great if this were 30 years ago and we could all go to work for a legacy that had a regulated market share.

It would be really nice if we worked for a legacy that competed with other airlines based upon such novel ideas as safety, schedule, customer service, but instead what we have are legacies and the "old LCC's" competiting not on the above, but on who can pay their pilots the least so they can undercut their competitors and "EARN" market share.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. I'm repeating the same points over and over. Philerup, if you aspire to fly for an airline someday, keep hailing airlines like Skybus as good for the industry, and enjoy busting your butt working your way up for that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow- $3500 bucks a month take home (if that) to fly Captain on a 30 million dollar jet. I hope your significant other has a good job because you won't be saving much for your kid's education or putting much away for retirement. I've always felt that airline pilots are overpaid, anyway. Hopefully airlines like Skybus will fix that problem in the up and coming years. (note the sarcasm in the last two sentences)

EXCELLENT post..............

 

[ultrarunner]

I thought it pretty funny that Skybus can only narrow indoc to between 8 and 14 days! THAT was funny!

Maybe they're figuring the smarties will finish in 8, but are budgeting 14 for the retards. Hmmmm

 

[PCL_128]

Maybe they're figuring the smarties will finish in 8, but are budgeting 14 for the retards. Hmmmm

In that case, they better just assume that everyone will need the 14.

 

[Allen1]

I've been at NetJets 2 years and I'm not making to much less than their airbus captains and I'm right seat in the ultra. Of course my income includes holiday pay and overtime. Wow I guess I'll just keep flying my small airplane and when I upgrade in a year I'll make more the an airbus captain in the left seat of an ultra. But hey I don't get to fly an airbus though.

 

[HA25]

I've been at NetJets 2 years and I'm not making to much less than their airbus captains and I'm right seat in the ultra. Of course my income includes holiday pay and overtime. Wow I guess I'll just keep flying my small airplane and when I upgrade in a year I'll make more the an airbus captain in the left seat of an ultra. But hey I don't get to fly an airbus though.

Good post.. I have to admit, for a while I was worried that the NetJets pilots might cause a downward shift in wages for "corporate" jets as the pay over there was dismal and the company was selling the idea to a lot of companies that they can substitute their corporate jet fleet with a share or two, and this would displace good part 91 well paid pilots out of jobs and replace them with poorly paid NetJets pilots... but I will be the first to say that the tables have shifted and you guys finally got your deserve! BRAVO! You're now some of the best paid pilots in aviation, much less corporate aviation (anyone see their 737 rates?), and the best part (and there can be now discounting the value in terms of $$ of schedule) Schedule in the private jet business... I think you are now all raising the bar and frankly a lot of competition can't keep up... Hats off to you guys for a good show of unity! I wish my company's ALPA had this much resolve.

Contrast this with Skybus..

 

[temcgrew]

NetJets started the exact same way skybus did. This was before the "big contract" and before airline pilots actually wanted to work for any type of corporate operator. I remember clearly the talk around the crew rooms, the netjet crews income combined on all aircraft usually didn't equal the wage of the First Officer on the Part 91 jobs they were stealing.

It has been funny to see the last 5 years or so. All of the corporate jobs were just stepping stone jobs. After 911 when I was flying a biz jet, all the furloughed airline guys came flooding in, elbowing everyone out of the way so they could upgrade, since it wasn't based on seniority they usually did.

Just remember not many years ago Netjets was the job stealing, low ball company. I'm glad it has changed a little bit for pay at NetJets at least but the effect that they had on the corporate world actually brought the pay down on average in the part 91 world. If a corporate flight department wants to stay on property they have to get thier pay down to compete with NetJets or the company might sell thier airplanes and go fractional.

It would be interesting to plot the pay for Part 91 companies over the last 10 years compared to Fractionals. I bet it would be a stark contrast the first 5 years with Part 91 being the high end and Fracs in the low ball Skybus area. Then as the Fracs grew and pay increases I bet the 91 companies pay would start to trend down.

The same will most likely happen to Skybus, sure thier pay will most likely increase over the next 5 years but as other airlines start contract negotiations, companies will throw Skybus pay in there as a negotiating tool. Every company does it, that's how we all negotiate.

So Yes I think just like NetJets, pay will get better but they throw off the average pay and could possibly hurt other airlines negotiating power and lower pay or hinder progress at the very least.

 

[HA25]

yeah, buy like Ryan air, Skybus' business model is PREDICATED on low wages... NetJets only fell into this by default as being a startup. This is the same for may "start ups", but again, the important thing to study is their business model (or who they're modeled on, Ryan in Ireland).

 

[temcgrew]

JetBlue started in JFK, one of the most serviced markets in the world. And one of the hardest to make a profit. Southwest doesn't serve JFK, LGA, or EWR. They serve secondary airports like ISP.

SkyBus is using Ryan's business plan. They are not using a traditional hub and spoke like the Legacy carriers. Let's not try to compare McDonald's with Red Lobster.

Pay at Ryanair should not be compared to Skybus. The Ryan guys at 5 years are making the about $100,000 for F/O's and $175,000 for Captains. If would really model Ryanair, I wouldn't see a problem.

 

[HA25]

Pay at Ryanair should not be compared to Skybus. The Ryan guys at 5 years are making the about $100,000 for F/O's and $175,000 for Captains. If would really model Ryanair, I wouldn't see a problem.

We talking about the 737 LCC operating in the EU out of Ireland? If so, then I'm GREATLY misinformed (or maybe you are).. cause I talked to a CA of theirs recently while in MXP who took home 55,000 UK pounds (which in terms of cost of living in the UK is like $55,000 here).