Since when does an airline union get to define what is and isn't legitmate purpose?

[dash8driver]

I guess harley figured there was no "legitimate purpose" for a citizen to own a 750 Honda Shadow,

you guess? or was that statement actually in their motion filed in court?

btw, trade tarriffs are nothing new and not in use exclusively by this country. i really dont see how trade relations and/or paying more for a motorcycle have anything to do with letting the media circus have a field day with CVR tapes.


.

 

[dash8driver]

repost

repost...sorry. Don't they have a delete key anymore?

repost sorry.

repost...sorry.

holy cow.. calm down.. you know, decaf tastes just as good as regular coffee.





.

 

[NorthShore]

The "legitimate purpose" arguement went out the window, and precedent was set, when (then) Attorney General John Ashcroft allowed the families of flight 93 victims to listen to the CVR tapes.


Where was the statutory purpose there? There was none. So from a legal standpoint the motion is moot.

 

[Fugawe]

"Designed for", "original purpose", "use" are terms that don't help me better understand how a union can define "legitimate [lawful] purpose".

Is there a law on the books that determines whether or not it would be lawful for the public to be allowed or denied access to the tapes?

Time to do your own research to figure this out...........if that's really what you're after.

Fugawe

 

[FN FAL]

holy cow.. calm down.. you know, decaf tastes just as good as regular coffee.
.

I hear ya, but I would kind of miss the heart palpitations.

 

[FN FAL]

Originally Posted by FN FAL
"Designed for", "original purpose", "use" are terms that don't help me better understand how a union can define "legitimate [lawful] purpose".

Is there a law on the books that determines whether or not it would be lawful for the public to be allowed or denied access to the tapes? [/fn fal]

Time to do your own research to figure this out...........if that's really what you're after.

Fugawe

We have some good information coming in, so citions of alpa motions and CFRs.

Thanks.

 

[Care269]

Thanks for the lead on 49 USC 114, heres the text:

a) General.--(1) Except as provided in subsections (b), (c), (d), and (f) of this section, a copy of a record, information, or investigation submitted or received by the National Transportation Safety Board, or a member or employee of the Board, shall be made available to the public on identifiable request and at reasonable cost. This subsection does not require the release of information described by section 552(b) of title 5 or protected from disclosure by another law of the United States.


(2) The Board shall deposit in the Treasury amounts received under paragraph (1) to be credited to the appropriation of the Board as offsetting collections.


(b) Trade secrets.--(1) The Board may disclose information related to a trade secret referred to in section 1905 of title 18 only--


(A) to another department, agency, or instrumentality of the United States Government when requested for official use;

(B) to a committee of Congress having jurisdiction over the subject matter to which the information is related, when requested by that committee;

(C) in a judicial proceeding under a court order that preserves the confidentiality of the information without impairing the proceeding; and

(D) to the public to protect health and safety after giving notice to any interested person to whom the information is related and an opportunity for that person to comment in writing, or orally in closed session, on the proposed disclosure, if the delay resulting from notice and opportunity for comment would not be detrimental to health and safety.


(2) Information disclosed under paragraph (1) of this subsection may be disclosed only in a way designed to preserve its confidentiality.


(3) Protection of voluntary submission of information.--Notwithstanding any other provision of law, neither the Board, nor any agency receiving information from the Board, shall disclose voluntarily provided safety-related information if that information is not related to the exercise of the Board's accident or incident investigation authority under this chapter and if the Board finds that the disclosure of the information would inhibit the voluntary provision of that type of information.


(c) Cockpit recordings and transcripts.--(1) The Board may not disclose publicly any part of a cockpit voice or video recorder recording or transcript of oral communications by and between flight crew members and ground stations related to an accident or incident investigated by the Board. However, the Board shall make public any part of a transcript or any written depiction of visual information the Board decides is relevant to the accident or incident--


(A) if the Board holds a public hearing on the accident or incident, at the time of the hearing; or

(B) if the Board does not hold a public hearing, at the time a majority of the
other factual reports on the accident or incident are placed in the public docket.


(2) This subsection does not prevent the Board from referring at any time to cockpit voice or video recorder information in making safety recommendations.


(d) Surface vehicle recordings and transcripts.--


(1) Confidentiality of recordings.--The Board may not disclose publicly any part of a surface vehicle voice or video recorder recording or transcript of oral communications by or among drivers, train employees, or other operating employees responsible for the movement and direction of the vehicle or vessel, or between such operating employees and company communication centers, related to an accident investigated by the Board. However, the Board shall make public any part of a transcript or any written depiction of visual information that the Board decides is relevant to the accident--

(A) if the Board holds a public hearing on the accident, at the time of the hearing; or

(B) if the Board does not hold a public hearing, at the time a majority of the
other factual reports on the accident are placed in the public docket.

(2) References to information in making safety recommendations.--This subsection does not prevent the Board from referring at any time to voice or video recorder information in making safety recommendations.


(e) Drug tests.--(1) Notwithstanding section 503(e) of the Supplemental Appropriations Act, 1987 (Public Law 100-71, 101 Stat. 471), the Secretary of Transportation shall provide the following information to the Board when requested in writing by the Board:


(A) any report of a confirmed positive toxicological test, verified as positive by a medical review officer, conducted on an officer or employee of the Department of Transportation under post-accident, unsafe practice, or reasonable suspicion toxicological testing requirements of the Department, when the officer or employee is reasonably associated with the circumstances of an accident or incident under the investigative jurisdiction of the Board.

(B) any laboratory record documenting that the test is confirmed positive.


(2) Except as provided by paragraph (3) of this subsection, the Board shall maintain the confidentiality of, and exempt from disclosure under section 552(b)(3) of title 5--


(A) a laboratory record provided the Board under paragraph (1) of this subsection that reveals medical use of a drug allowed under applicable regulations; and

(B) medical information provided by the tested officer or employee related to the test or a review of the test.


(3) The Board may use a laboratory record made available under paragraph (1) of this subsection to develop an evidentiary record in an investigation of an accident or incident if--


(A) the fitness of the tested officer or employee is at issue in the investigation; and

(B) the use of that record is necessary to develop the evidentiary record.


(f) Foreign investigations.--


(1) In general.--Notwithstanding any other provision of law, neither the Board, nor any agency receiving information from the Board, shall disclose records or
information relating to its participation in foreign aircraft accident investigations; except that--

(A) the Board shall release records pertaining to such an investigation when the country conducting the investigation issues its final report or 2 years following the date of the accident, whichever occurs first; and

(B) the Board may disclose records and information when authorized to do so by the country conducting the investigation.

(2) Safety recommendations.--Nothing in this subsection shall restrict the Board at any time from referring to foreign accident investigation information in making safety recommendations.


CREDIT(S)

 

[Care269]

The statute seems to regulate the discovery demands placed on the NTSB, not the private agency (ie, the airline). It appears that a subpoena on the airline would not be controlled by this statute, only a FOIL. or similar, request on the government.

 

[Hvy]

"Purpose" and "use" of a CVR? I would assume that would be the recording of data for playback at a later date.

For investigative purposes. Certainly not to sensationalize a tragic event for the public's enjoyment.

 

[Axel]

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/CVR_FDR.htm

The CVR recordings are treated differently than the other factual information obtained in an accident investigation. Due to the highly sensitive nature of the verbal communications inside the cockpit, Congress has required that the Safety Board not release any part of a CVR audio recording. Because of this sensitivity, a high degree of security is provided for the CVR audio and its transcript. The content and timing of release of the written transcript are strictly regulated: under federal law, transcripts of pertinent portions of cockpit voice recordings are released at a Safety Board public hearing on the accident or, if no hearing is held, when a majority of the factual reports are made public.

 

[A Squared]

The statute seems to regulate the discovery demands placed on the NTSB, not the private agency (ie, the airline). It appears that a subpoena on the airline would not be controlled by this statute, only a FOIL. or similar, request on the government.

49 USC 1114 dictates what the NTSB may do with CVR tapes. It doesn't adress discovery. 49 USC 1154 addresses discovery. Take a look at that. It appears to me to go beyond what the NTSB may do or not do

 

[A Squared]

The "legitimate purpose" arguement went out the window, and precedent was set, when (then) Attorney General John Ashcroft allowed the families of flight 93 victims to listen to the CVR tapes.


Where was the statutory purpose there? There was none. So from a legal standpoint the motion is moot.

A statute is not like virginity. It doesn't cease to exist after one violation.

 

[Hold West]

Maybe if you just presented it, I would have read it. How the hell would I get an ALPA motion?

\

30 seconds worth of Google search, just like I did.

 

[Care269]

A Squared, You're right, it looks like 1154 controls. Here's a copy for those interested.

1154. Discovery and use of cockpit and surface vehicle recordings and transcripts


(a) Transcripts and recordings.--(1) Except as provided by this subsection, a party in a judicial proceeding may not use discovery to obtain--


(A) any part of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript that the National Transportation Safety Board has not made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title; and

(B) a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording.


(2)(A) Except as provided in paragraph (4)(A) of this subsection, a court may allow discovery by a party of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript if, after an in camera review of the transcript, the court decides that--


(i) the part of the transcript made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title does not provide the party with sufficient information for the party to receive a fair trial; and

(ii) discovery of additional parts of the transcript is necessary to provide the party with sufficient information for the party to receive a fair trial.


(B) A court may allow discovery, or require production for an in camera review, of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript that the Board has not made available under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title only if the cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording is not available.


(3) Except as provided in paragraph (4)(A) of this subsection, a court may allow discovery by a party of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording if, after an in camera review of the recording, the court decides that--


(A) the parts of the transcript made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title and to the party through discovery under
paragraph (2) of this subsection do not provide the party with sufficient information for the party to receive a fair trial; and

(B) discovery of the cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording is necessary to provide the party with sufficient information for the party to receive a fair trial.


(4)(A) When a court allows discovery in a judicial proceeding of a part of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript not made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title or a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording, the court shall issue a protective order--


(i) to limit the use of the part of the transcript or the recording to the judicial proceeding; and

(ii) to prohibit dissemination of the part of the transcript or the recording to any person that does not need access to the part of the transcript or the recording for the proceeding.


(B) A court may allow a part of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript not made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title or a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording to be admitted into evidence in a judicial proceeding, only if the court places the part of the transcript or the recording under seal to prevent the use of the part of the transcript or the recording for purposes other than for the proceeding.


(5) This subsection does not prevent the Board from referring at any time to cockpit or surface vehicle recorder information in making safety recommendations.


(6) In this subsection:


(A) Recorder.--The term "recorder" means a voice or video recorder.

(B) Transcript.--The term "transcript" includes any written depiction of visual information obtained from a video recorder.


(b) Reports.--No part of a report of the Board, related to an accident or an investigation of an accident, may be admitted into evidence or used in a civil action for damages resulting from a matter mentioned in the report.


CREDIT(S)

 

[FN FAL]

Thanks for the lead on 49 USC 114, heres the text:

a) General.--

(1) Except as provided in subsections (b), (c), (d), and (f) of this section, a copy of a record, information, or investigation submitted or received by the National Transportation Safety Board, or a member or employee of the Board, shall be made available to the public on identifiable request and at reasonable cost. This subsection does not require the release of information described by section 552(b) of title 5 or protected from disclosure by another law of the United States.


(c) Cockpit recordings and transcripts. --


(1) The Board may not disclose publicly any part of a cockpit voice or video recorder recording or transcript of oral communications by and between flight crew members and ground stations related to an accident or incident investigated by the Board. However, the Board shall make public any part of a transcript or any written depiction of visual information the Board decides is relevant to the accident or incident--

(A) if the Board holds a public hearing on the accident or incident, at the time of the hearing; or

(B) if the Board does not hold a public hearing, at the time a majority of the
other factual reports on the accident or incident are placed in the public docket.

​

(2) This subsection does not prevent the Board from referring at any time to cockpit voice or video recorder information in making safety recommendations.


CREDIT(S)

Thanks for the citation.

It does bring up an interesting point on Air-Ground communications. If a private person had a personal recording of the A/G communication, this rule wouldn't prevent them from sharing it with others. But as this says, the ntsb can only release transcripts. As we saw in the Pinnacle crash.

 

[FN FAL]

\

30 seconds worth of Google search, just like I did.

Wow...you're smooooth. That's what being a contributor to a discussion is all about.

 

[FN FAL]

A Squared, You're right, it looks like 1154 controls. Here's a copy for those interested.

1154. Discovery and use of cockpit and surface vehicle recordings and transcripts


(a) Transcripts and recordings.--(1) Except as provided by this subsection, a party in a judicial proceeding may not use discovery to obtain--


(A) any part of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript that the National Transportation Safety Board has not made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title; and

(B) a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording.


(2)(A) Except as provided in paragraph (4)(A) of this subsection, a court may allow discovery by a party of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript if, after an in camera review of the transcript, the court decides that--


(i) the part of the transcript made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title does not provide the party with sufficient information for the party to receive a fair trial; and

(ii) discovery of additional parts of the transcript is necessary to provide the party with sufficient information for the party to receive a fair trial.


(B) A court may allow discovery, or require production for an in camera review, of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript that the Board has not made available under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title only if the cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording is not available.


(3) Except as provided in paragraph (4)(A) of this subsection, a court may allow discovery by a party of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording if, after an in camera review of the recording, the court decides that--


(A) the parts of the transcript made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title and to the party through discovery under
paragraph (2) of this subsection do not provide the party with sufficient information for the party to receive a fair trial; and

(B) discovery of the cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording is necessary to provide the party with sufficient information for the party to receive a fair trial.


(4)(A) When a court allows discovery in a judicial proceeding of a part of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript not made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title or a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording, the court shall issue a protective order--


(i) to limit the use of the part of the transcript or the recording to the judicial proceeding; and

(ii) to prohibit dissemination of the part of the transcript or the recording to any person that does not need access to the part of the transcript or the recording for the proceeding.


(B) A court may allow a part of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript not made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title or a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording to be admitted into evidence in a judicial proceeding, only if the court places the part of the transcript or the recording under seal to prevent the use of the part of the transcript or the recording for purposes other than for the proceeding.


(5) This subsection does not prevent the Board from referring at any time to cockpit or surface vehicle recorder information in making safety recommendations.


(6) In this subsection:


(A) Recorder.--The term "recorder" means a voice or video recorder.

(B) Transcript.--The term "transcript" includes any written depiction of visual information obtained from a video recorder.


(b) Reports.--No part of a report of the Board, related to an accident or an investigation of an accident, may be admitted into evidence or used in a civil action for damages resulting from a matter mentioned in the report.


CREDIT(S)

Looks like we have a winner..."legitimate purpose" is clearly defined here.

Thanks for your citation, I think this answers my question.

 

[Hold West]

Thanks for the citation.

It does bring up an interesting point on Air-Ground communications. If a private person had a personal recording of the A/G communication, this rule wouldn't prevent them from sharing it with others. But as this says, the ntsb can only release transcripts. As we saw in the Pinnacle crash.

The air/ground communications are a different animal, and covered under 18 USC 2511, in part:

(g) It shall not be unlawful under this chapter or chapter 121 of this title for any person—
(i) to intercept or access an electronic communication made through an electronic communication system that is configured so that such electronic communication is readily accessible to the general public;
(ii) to intercept any radio communication which is transmitted— (I) by any station for the use of the general public, or that relates to ships, aircraft, vehicles, or persons in distress;
(II) by any governmental, law enforcement, civil defense, private land mobile, or public safety communications system, including police and fire, readily accessible to the general public;
(III) by a station operating on an authorized frequency within the bands allocated to the amateur, citizens band, or general mobile radio services; or
(IV) by any marine or aeronautical communications system;

And tapes of ATC comms are readily available from the FAA via the FOIA process. When I was a QA guy for a little while in Minneapolis Center, one of my jobs was making tapes in response to FOIA requests, and reviewing them for anything that might be ugly for the FAA.

 

[FN FAL]

The air/ground communications are a different animal, and covered under 18 USC 2511, in part:

(g) It shall not be unlawful under this chapter or chapter 121 of this title for any person—
(i) to intercept or access an electronic communication made through an electronic communication system that is configured so that such electronic communication is readily accessible to the general public;
(ii) to intercept any radio communication which is transmitted— (I) by any station for the use of the general public, or that relates to ships, aircraft, vehicles, or persons in distress;
(II) by any governmental, law enforcement, civil defense, private land mobile, or public safety communications system, including police and fire, readily accessible to the general public;
(III) by a station operating on an authorized frequency within the bands allocated to the amateur, citizens band, or general mobile radio services; or
(IV) by any marine or aeronautical communications system;

And tapes of ATC comms are readily available from the FAA via the FOIA process. When I was a QA guy for a little while in Minneapolis Center, one of my jobs was making tapes in response to FOIA requests, and reviewing them for anything that might be ugly for the FAA.

Thanks for the citation.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Geez!

Are you guys still at it?

If the CVR was played on a treadmill that moved at exactly the same speed in the opposite direction, could you hear the sound?