Sick...

[Jungle_Jet]

Not a regs expert, but we fly under 135 (have several other types on the cert).

I'm thinking the rule applies to 91 as well, but don't quote me on that.

 

[mdt301]

Not a regs expert, but we fly under 135 (have several other types on the cert).

I'm thinking the rule applies to 91 as well, but don't quote me on that.

From what I can tell unless the aircraft is typed for two you cannot log SIC time under part 91. But there might be some grey area!

 

[svcta]

There is no grey area there.

 

[jafo20]

Flying passengers without an AP requires an SIC. If an SIC isn't required, like on a 91 leg or an all-freight operation, SIC time can't be logged. I think that's why Central Air had that letter of waiver so they could do that where guys bought time in the right seat of an AeroCommander.

One of the Central Air guys can check me on that one.

Sidenote:

The following is not intended as a personal attack. I tend to like other guys who have flown or fly aging recip stuff around in the weather. That said, I need to delve into this matter of pilot pay and pay structure, because, like a lot of guys here, I've been hungry for time, low on cash and low on options.

Even when things were slow, five years ago, there were better ways for an entry-level pilot to break into this business. For example, you could fly checks for RAF, FLX, Airnet, etc. I loved working for my check-hauling outfit, and I could go to the doctor! It rocked!

For all the scuz-bag outfits that were doing the buy-your-job deal, there were outfits flying airplanes that nobody else would touch, like Cessna 210s and Piper Lances. Then, like now, there were better options.

The SIC pay is a joke. Let's consider the PIC pay.

The PIC who goes to work there is going to be desperate for every trip, as 24k doesn't pay bills these days. He's going to crossing his fingers every time his nose drips, 'til his health insurance kicks in after a miserable six months. He's going to be scrounging around, hoping to find a job mowing grass or washing planes. Some people might think this will keep a pilot motivated to fly trips. A pilot who wants to hold on to a relatively good job will be more efficient. Proof of this can be found all over the country. Small charter outfits that take care of their crews last. Small charter outfits that don't fail or fall on hard times.

I did the grass-mowing and plane washing thing when I was trying to get my first 1200 hours, so I have a small bit of experience being desperate. I also know I was much more productive when I could finally visit the doctor and have some cysts cut off my head.

The benefit structure is going to promote a sense of desperation in whatever pilot you get.

What do you get by screwing around with your crews, when you can just offer a straight salary to your PIC of 28-35k with immediate health insurance, and have him relax and provide dedicated service? Do you save money? Do you get increased loyalty? Do you get personal satisfaction?

Maybe my heart's getting all soft as my hair falls out. There must be something I'm missing.

 

[svcta]

Very well put. When I was "desperate" for time I towed banners for a guy that paid me $25/hr. I've always been choosy about who I go to work for, and it has paid off for me. I've towed and hauled cargo single-pilot as I came up and always felt safe and taken care of. That's because I've always walked away from jobs that smelled bad. It took me a while to get to my first jet job(7 years) so I guess that was the trade off. The moral of the story is that no one NEEDS to take any job they can find to build time. It's a two-way street. There are a few employers out there that recognize good help when they see it and understand that it's worth taking care of them and the equipment.

 

[bizjet800]

Very good viewpoints on this thread. All I can add is that it is simple economics. As long as there is a pilot that is willing and able to: pay for their training, work in poor conditions, always fly a broken aircraft, not demand health insurance after a short period, mow lawns of their days off, then companies will be more than willing to accept it. This struggle will deter some from becoming a pilot, which will keep the supply of pilots lower, and thus the natural law of supply and demand will iron itself out.

If no company can find a pilot who's willing to finance their training department, they'll just have to find it their budget to do so--and no company group or pilot group is any worse off nor any better off.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Very good viewpoints on this thread. All I can add is that it is simple economics. As long as there is a pilot that is willing and able to: pay for their training, work in poor conditions, always fly a broken aircraft, not demand health insurance after a short period, mow lawns of their days off, then companies will be more than willing to accept it. This struggle will deter some from becoming a pilot, which will keep the supply of pilots lower, and thus the natural law of supply and demand will iron itself out.

If no company can find a pilot who's willing to finance their training department, they'll just have to find it their budget to do so--and no company group or pilot group is any worse off nor any better off.

Agreed. I was not attempting to defend this outfit in any way, just trying to insert a bit of logic and perspective into what was becoming an emotional debate (or actually, started as one).

Are there much better ways to start a career? A few, but I wouldn't say many. I'd submit that this job is much better than towing banners or that sort of thing, particularly if one is aspiring to be a 121 captain one day. The ME time and experience in IMC in a two man cockpit is quite valuable, and frankly I'd look at someone coming from this background before I would someone with 1000 hrs bouncing around the pattern. The experience is much more relevant.

 

[LXJ31]

FAR135 + being "on-call" 24/7?

Hmmm...

 

[softail99]

Logging of time

If there's no AP (and company regs require it) then multi-SIC time is logged. No different than many King Air operators who do the same thing.

It's nice to have two crewmen on board, especially in winter and spring in the Midwest and Northeast. Not to mention the customers often prefer it (I know ours do).

You CAN NOT log time in an aircraft that the type certificate does not require a SIC, even if pilicy does company does, unless this is a FAR 135 or simular operation.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

You CAN NOT log time in an aircraft that the type certificate does not require a SIC, even if pilicy does company does, unless this is a FAR 135 or simular operation.

Already been covered. Read some of the posts from above.

 

[BigPappa]

Jungle Jet, saying that that job is better than a regional: head check for you would be good. Let's see turbine P121 multi versus p135 twin piston, no schedule, and horrific pay. Just remember most regionals only pay bad first year after that your pay pretty much doubles at most of them. At least as a flight instructor you buid PIC experience. I've done most of that stuff and can speak from experience.

 

[NoPax]

After a couple thousand hours of piston time, you'll have stories of how things broke, how you dealt with it. You'll look outside for traffic when it's called, not inside at your TCAS.

Turbines rarely break = complacent pilot.

 

[Papps]

After a couple thousand hours of piston time, you'll have stories of how things broke, how you dealt with it. You'll look outside for traffic when it's called, not inside at your TCAS.

Turbines rarely break = complacent pilot.

The only engine failure i've ever had was a turbine.

Face it this job sucks big time. I don't know if you guys have seen regional mins lately but the regionals are entry level jobs. 24/7 on calls jobs are miserable I would rather have someone kick me in the balls 20 times a day than have a pager.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

Just for perspective, my first twin job was flying a Chieftain under part 91. This was four years ago.

Pay was $36K with full benefits including 401K. Schedule was a flight every Tuesday and Thursday with the occasional Sunday afternoon pickup at the ranch.

Maybe 6 overnights in two years. We hired out the wash and wax and I performed the interior cleaning and Jepp updates.

I was flying this airplane when I was offered and then declined the job at ExpressJet.

This SIC and PIC job looks like crap. A get in, get the time, and get out job. But, no matter how low the pay or how bad the schedule there is an ass for every seat.

 

[thunderworm]

you can definetly log sic time if the ops specs require two crewmember but what good is sic piston twin unless you wan to get another piston twin job. also although a 135 job you are still responsible for part 91 rules as well. the job is what it is and as long as people out there take them they will keep coming around. not that bad if you are a fresh commercial with a wet multi cert. and want to be paid to learn something and don't want to flight instruct, although i learned a great deal teaching, like others have said a few years ago there were those who paid for this.