Sick...

[svcta]

Taken from a job posting site about jobs in the sky.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Navajo SIC 7/12/2007
Upscale charter operator needs 2 Navajo F/O's. Chance to upgrade to Turbo-props or jets. You will be on-call 24/7 with 4 fixed days off and 4 movable days. Commercial ME and Inst. Prefer Navajo or 402 experience. Salary of $12,000/yr plus $50/day for each day you fly. Medical and 401k after 6mths. Plus additional income opportunities. Please send email to

There's also one for a Captain for 24K/yr and 100/day for flying.
Would anyone actually do this?
[/FONT]

 

[Jungle_Jet]

You ignored two important parts:

"...[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]plus $50/day for each day you fly..."

[/FONT]And:

"[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Plus additional income opportunities."

[/FONT]That's not bad money to fly a Navajo, considering you'd likely fly 18-22 days per month. Mid- $20's to fly (o.k., drop flaps and gear and work the radios on) a docile light twin and rack up MULTI time is pretty good, and there's likely a much better QOL than the bottom feeder regionals they are competing with for applicants.

It's all about perspective.

 

[SEVEN]

Taken from a job posting site about jobs in the sky.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Navajo SIC 7/12/2007 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Upscale charter operator needs 2 Navajo F/O's. Chance to upgrade to Turbo-props or jets. You will be on-call 24/7 with 4 fixed days off and 4 movable days. Commercial ME and Inst. Prefer Navajo or 402 experience. Salary of $12,000/yr plus $50/day for each day you fly. Medical and 401k after 6mths. Plus additional income opportunities. Please send email to[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]There's also one for a Captain for 24K/yr and 100/day for flying.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Would anyone actually do this?[/FONT]

What's sick is that they used "upscale" and "Navajo" in the same sentence.

 

[daviator28621]

Where are they located?

 

[svcta]

You ignored two important parts:

"...[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]plus $50/day for each day you fly..."

[/FONT]And:

"[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Plus additional income opportunities."

[/FONT]That's not bad money to fly a Navajo, considering you'd likely fly 18-22 days per month. Mid- $20's to fly (o.k., drop flaps and gear and work the radios on) a docile light twin and rack up MULTI time is pretty good, and there's likely a much better QOL than the bottom feeder regionals they are competing with for applicants.

It's all about perspective.

You must work there. If they're so confident that you'll be flying 18-22 days a month why not just pay a regular salary? And what exactly does "extra income opp.." mean? Cutting the grass at the hangar for $5/hr? Or Washing the boss's car? A 24/7 on call situation for 12K/yr that you can COUNT ON is ridiculous.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

I know because I happen to work in the industry, you hater.

You'd think nothing of sending some kid to a regional to fly 20 days a month, making $22k with no beni's or QOL, yet frown on someone taking this job?

Don't comment about things you know little or nothing about, it just proves you're a jacka$$.

 

[jafo20]

I happen to work in the industry, too. That Navajo deal is bogus for all the reasons listed by SVCTA and then some.

FO in a Navajo? For what they're paying an FO, they could buy an autopilot and deal with a marginal increase in insurance premiums to fly thing single pilot. Getting a single pilot for 40k, who will stick around and know the airplane and local area, is safer than two neophyte guys working for 24k and 18k each.

Also, the turnover cost that they're going to incur, even paying their PIC a whopping 24k plus 100/trip, is going to offset whatever money they're hoping to save.

My two cents.

 

[svcta]

My friend, I work in this industry, too. This is even worse than a regional job. QOL? How about 24/7 reserve? At least at a regional you have a sched., and yes benefits, some work rules, and no side jobs(i.e. "extra income opportunities"). I'm not stabbing at you, it's the kind of operator that would even suggest this. 12K a year for that kind of commitment is not what I'd call a 2-way street. Enjoy your job, midnight cowboy.

EDIT: Aimed at jungle, no jafo.

 

[Reynard Driver]

24/7 to be on call for a year at $12,000 equals $1.37 per hour. Not bad, HA HA.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Again, a dose of perspective helps, gents. This is an entry level job, not a career job. It's better than most regionals I know of and certainly better than any CFI gig I've seen.

Midnight Cowboy? I surely am stupid as I have no clue what that was in reference to. As long as you laughed, I guess that's what counts.

 

[ksu_aviator]

It's a light twin and you people are worried about the low pay? 5 years ago, they'd be asking $15,000 from the FO for the chance to go riding around with the captain! Don't look at this as sick, look at this an an opportunity to optimistic.

PS...the 24/7 on call does suck and is against regs according to some FSDOs

 

[Hugh Johnson]

You ignored two important parts:

"...[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]plus $50/day for each day you fly..."[/FONT]

And:

"[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Plus additional income opportunities."[/FONT]

That's not bad money to fly a Navajo, considering you'd likely fly 18-22 days per month. Mid- $20's to fly (o.k., drop flaps and gear and work the radios on) a docile light twin and rack up MULTI time is pretty good, and there's likely a much better QOL than the bottom feeder regionals they are competing with for applicants.

It's all about perspective.

How do you rack up Multi time sitting in the right seat of a Navajo? Dead head legs?

 

[Jungle_Jet]

How do you rack up Multi time sitting in the right seat of a Navajo? Dead head legs?

If there's no AP (and company regs require it) then multi-SIC time is logged. No different than many King Air operators who do the same thing.

It's nice to have two crewmen on board, especially in winter and spring in the Midwest and Northeast. Not to mention the customers often prefer it (I know ours do).

 

[T206driver]

PA-31-350t's are solid birds. I have a couple of hundred hours in one. Mine even had a CD player in the intercom! Won't have that at any regional. My only beef is taking a piston into the mountains in IMC in the middle of winter. I would much prefer burning Jet A instead, that's another story. This might be a good thing far the right person. I love flying a Hoe. You know we are all a bunch of hoe's deep down anyway.

 

[mdt301]

hey jungle jet are you referring to part 135 or 91..? when logging this SIC time.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Not a regs expert, but we fly under 135 (have several other types on the cert).

I'm thinking the rule applies to 91 as well, but don't quote me on that.

 

[mdt301]

Not a regs expert, but we fly under 135 (have several other types on the cert).

I'm thinking the rule applies to 91 as well, but don't quote me on that.

From what I can tell unless the aircraft is typed for two you cannot log SIC time under part 91. But there might be some grey area!

 

[svcta]

There is no grey area there.

 

[jafo20]

Flying passengers without an AP requires an SIC. If an SIC isn't required, like on a 91 leg or an all-freight operation, SIC time can't be logged. I think that's why Central Air had that letter of waiver so they could do that where guys bought time in the right seat of an AeroCommander.

One of the Central Air guys can check me on that one.

Sidenote:

The following is not intended as a personal attack. I tend to like other guys who have flown or fly aging recip stuff around in the weather. That said, I need to delve into this matter of pilot pay and pay structure, because, like a lot of guys here, I've been hungry for time, low on cash and low on options.

Even when things were slow, five years ago, there were better ways for an entry-level pilot to break into this business. For example, you could fly checks for RAF, FLX, Airnet, etc. I loved working for my check-hauling outfit, and I could go to the doctor! It rocked!

For all the scuz-bag outfits that were doing the buy-your-job deal, there were outfits flying airplanes that nobody else would touch, like Cessna 210s and Piper Lances. Then, like now, there were better options.

The SIC pay is a joke. Let's consider the PIC pay.

The PIC who goes to work there is going to be desperate for every trip, as 24k doesn't pay bills these days. He's going to crossing his fingers every time his nose drips, 'til his health insurance kicks in after a miserable six months. He's going to be scrounging around, hoping to find a job mowing grass or washing planes. Some people might think this will keep a pilot motivated to fly trips. A pilot who wants to hold on to a relatively good job will be more efficient. Proof of this can be found all over the country. Small charter outfits that take care of their crews last. Small charter outfits that don't fail or fall on hard times.

I did the grass-mowing and plane washing thing when I was trying to get my first 1200 hours, so I have a small bit of experience being desperate. I also know I was much more productive when I could finally visit the doctor and have some cysts cut off my head.

The benefit structure is going to promote a sense of desperation in whatever pilot you get.

What do you get by screwing around with your crews, when you can just offer a straight salary to your PIC of 28-35k with immediate health insurance, and have him relax and provide dedicated service? Do you save money? Do you get increased loyalty? Do you get personal satisfaction?

Maybe my heart's getting all soft as my hair falls out. There must be something I'm missing.

 

[svcta]

Very well put. When I was "desperate" for time I towed banners for a guy that paid me $25/hr. I've always been choosy about who I go to work for, and it has paid off for me. I've towed and hauled cargo single-pilot as I came up and always felt safe and taken care of. That's because I've always walked away from jobs that smelled bad. It took me a while to get to my first jet job(7 years) so I guess that was the trade off. The moral of the story is that no one NEEDS to take any job they can find to build time. It's a two-way street. There are a few employers out there that recognize good help when they see it and understand that it's worth taking care of them and the equipment.