Shuttle America 170 and CLE

[Axel]

front nosegear collapsed

As opposed to the rear nosegear?

All in good fun

 

[Minimaniac]

In light of the still outstanding Delta RFP, the company may be trying to spin the cause of this accident as some failure of the airport to ensure safe landing conditions. Certainly can't have the company looking bad when they are looking for work. Or, the company is going to smear these pilots, and blame the already decided loss of Delta flying at RAH on this accident.

Of course, in some way this will be linked to pilot error. Too bad we dont get paid more...then maybe we could hire better lawyers for ourselves and pass the blame around more fairly. I just hope those two flew by the book on this approach.

And for what it is worth, remember that those calculated approach speeds are not necessarily the speeds you are meant to cross the threshold at. Vref is still your 50' over the numbers speed. If winds give you a 15 knot correction over ref for the approach, be sure to get yourself slowed down for the touchdown. There are generally no landing distance charts for landing at ref plus anything. Vapp is just that...approach speed.

Fly safe, everyone.

 

[Rouge Warrior]

you are clueless, these 2 had more experience than whats in 90 percent of todays regional cockpits.

every single person reading this has landed in conditions, when viewed in retrospect, could be viewed as dangerous.

so please stop this nonsense and thank god it wasnt you, cause you could be next, no matter how smart you think you are.

I am not saying I'm smart and I'm not throwing theses guys under the bus, but I will say if i am coming in and the GS is unusable I KNOW I need more than a 1/4 for a LOC only approach.

 

[Rouge Warrior]

ILS 28 CLE:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0702/00084I28.PDF

What are the mins for the LOC only approach for a Cat 3 a/c?
500 and 3/4, if the approach speed is bumped up so are the requirements for the A/C

Safety is the responsibility of BOTH pilots. I to hope I'm never caught stepping on my own manhood, but the minimums are the minimums.

 

[tyuwerty]

I wonder what the "spin" is as was mentioned

I think the question the company and the FAA will have, is why they were on the phone to the union during the actual evacuation as GM states?

 

[tyuwerty]

The gear wouldn't come up when they left IAH (I think), so they pressed the override button - gear came up. When they reached IAD, the nose gear wouldn't come down! THEN Embraer came out with a memo stating "don't use the red button".
Bottom line, crew was exonerated.

The QRH ALWAYS said to use the red button ONLY if obstacle clearance was an issue. The memo was to emphasize a procedure already in place.

 

[svcta]

Was the GS OTS when they shot the approach, or did they take out the antenna after/as they went off the runway?

GS antennas are on the approach end of a runway....LOC are on the departure end.

 

[trainer8]

And for what it is worth, remember that those calculated approach speeds are not necessarily the speeds you are meant to cross the threshold at. Vref is still your 50' over the numbers speed. If winds give you a 15 knot correction over ref for the approach, be sure to get yourself slowed down for the touchdown. There are generally no landing distance charts for landing at ref plus anything. Vapp is just that...approach speed.

Well, there is more to it than that. Did they have the good ole STALL PROT ICE CAS messege? 16-18 knots of wind? Doesn't not Aerodata in the release will give the required LDG distance for the given conditions. Thats is even based with the AT off. Was it on?

T8

 

[labbats]

Did CLE approach give them the runway switcheroo at the last minute? If so, that's classic CLE and triple the workload at a critical juncture.

I'm glad everyone is safe and hope the best for all involved.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

The gear wouldn't come up when they left IAH (I think), so they pressed the override button - gear came up. When they reached IAD, the nose gear wouldn't come down! THEN Embraer came out with a memo stating "don't use the red button".
Bottom line, crew was exonerated.

Uh, Hello! When the gear doesn't retract when you try put the handle up, the reason is simple:

There is a problem with the gear and it should not be retracted.

Why would anyone override the downlock unless you've lost and engine and are about to hit a mountain?

Those "red buttons" have been in place since forever on virtually all transport airplanes.

Earth to Republic pilots...

 

[TAWS]

Oakum Boy,

I wish that everyone was as smart as you, or the other superb pilots on this thread that know everything! The way the "red button" was explained in the POH obviously left enough wiggle room for those guys to get their jobs back! You and Rogue Warrior should get a room, as you superior pilots would surely enjoy each other's company!

 

[belchfire]

According to FlightAware they landed @ 1955Z. The METAR at that time was

[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KCLE 181956Z 30016KT 1/4SM +SN BKN006 BKN015 OVC041 M07/M11 A3001 RMK AO2 P0000 $[/FONT]

[FONT=Monospace,Courier]KCLE 181951Z 29018KT 1/4SM +SN SCT011 BKN018 OVC043 M07/M11 A3001 RMK AO2 SNB36 CIG 012 NE SLP173 P0000 T10721111 $[/FONT]

Landing on the shortest runway in practically whiteout conditions? Interesting choice considering I did not see any NOTAMS for any other, longer runways closed.

KickIt

I didn't know they were authorized below Cat 1 minimums...

 

[belchfire]

Uh, Hello! When the gear doesn't retract when you try put the handle up, the reason is simple:

There is a problem with the gear and it should not be retracted.

Why would anyone override the downlock unless you've lost and engine and are about to hit a mountain?

Those "red buttons" have been in place since forever on virtually all transport airplanes.

Earth to Republic pilots...

There are several things that would justify it. An encounter with moderate icing would be one.

 

[BankAccount=0$]

Simply put CLE was extremely ugly at that particular time of the day...... The WX was changing by the minute and it was a very challenging approach to a runway that at the time didn't leave much margin for error. Anybody who flew that approach in those conditions will no doubt vouch for that. It is an errie feeling after clearing the runway to hear tower calling the ARFF folks to find out their intentions followed by the words "proceed to the area in any way, the field is closed"........

 

[Crossky]

you are clueless, these 2 had more experience than whats in 90 percent of todays regional cockpits.

every single person reading this has landed in conditions, when viewed in retrospect, could be viewed as dangerous.

so please stop this nonsense and thank god it wasnt you, cause you could be next, no matter how smart you think you are.

A little overboard and defensive, don't you think? Speaking for everyone is not in good style.

Disclaimer: Sat morn ICE snow storm spoiling my day off so I'm in a scrappy mood. We had a Republican FO non-rev the other day come up to the office to say hi, which is fine. I expressed my sympathy for SA's overrun and thanks that everyone was OK, asked if he knew any details on what happened. The guy starts passing the buck 'the SA pilots are all junior to Republic pilots, (hilarious) they're a whole 'nother certificate (I know that) we have nothing to do with them'. He didn't want any connection to them and seemed to say that they were so much junior than the republicans that he wasn't too surprised it happened. Is there a rivalry or bad relations between Rep. and SA pilots? He seemed like an isolated TOOL. Don't Rep. and SA pilots receive the same operational and fleet info from the same VP's or source?

Don't fry me, but my suspicion is they flew an ILS28 with the malfunctioning GS which could have left them high on landing. It seems logical due to the info known, just no one has stated it outright. They would've likely had the min vis for the ILS but not for the LOC only GS OTS (5000 RVR req'd). Seems to me that KCLE ATC should've deactivated the GS if it was giving erroneous indications, instead of just notaming it OTS.

We should all pay attention to notams and apply them to our operations.

Peace.

 

[Golden Falcon]

Cant see a CAT-3 aircraft having any different LOC mins than any other aircraft

 

[trainer8]

A little overboard and defensive, don't you think? Speaking for everyone is not in good style.

Disclaimer: Sat morn ICE snow storm spoiling my day off so I'm in a scrappy mood. We had a Republican FO non-rev the other day come up to the office to say hi, which is fine. I expressed my sympathy for SA's overrun and thanks that everyone was OK, asked if he knew any details on what happened. The guy starts passing the buck 'the SA pilots are all junior to Republic pilots, (hilarious) they're a whole 'nother certificate (I know that) we have nothing to do with them'. He didn't want any connection to them and seemed to say that they were so much junior than the republicans that he wasn't too surprised it happened. Is there a rivalry or bad relations between Rep. and SA pilots? He seemed like an isolated TOOL. Don't Rep. and SA pilots receive the same operational and fleet info from the same VP's or source?

Don't fry me, but my suspicion is they flew an ILS28 with the malfunctioning GS which could have left them high on landing. It seems logical due to the info known, just no one has stated it outright. They would've likely had the min vis for the ILS but not for the LOC only GS OTS (5000 RVR req'd). Seems to me that KCLE ATC should've deactivated the GS if it was giving erroneous indications, instead of just notaming it OTS.

We should all pay attention to notams and apply them to our operations.

Peace.

SA is the "A-team" at RAH E170 division flying...meaning, most of the new software loads and new stuff for the 170 is instituted there first before Republic. They are the trailblazers. The FO in your jumpseat is wrong. They are not all junior to Republic. The only "exception" to that would be the J4J AAA pilots crewing the left seats at Republic, but even there, there have been issues of "judgement," so let's not cast a "we're better then they are" situation between the two airlines. There are differences in their operation vs. Republic's, but let's put this accident in perspective. To quote the Republic DO, "It could have been us."

It's that simple.

My best wishes to the crew. Hope things go smoothly for them as the investigation continues.

T8

 

[Rouge Warrior]

Oakum Boy,

I wish that everyone was as smart as you, or the other superb pilots on this thread that know everything! The way the "red button" was explained in the POH obviously left enough wiggle room for those guys to get their jobs back! You and Rogue Warrior should get a room, as you superior pilots would surely enjoy each other's company!

"wiggle room" I ain't trying to piss you off TAWS nor am I saying I wouldn't or haven't ever screwed up but EVERYONE knows what that little red button is for.

 

[A350]

How were they legal to shoot the approach, let alone land?

A350

 

[trainer8]

How were they legal to shoot the approach, let alone land?

A350

Apparently the RWY 28 RVR was 4000 or better. If my memory serves me correctly, the ceiling was 018 OVC.

T8

 

[mokitty]

How were they legal to shoot the approach, let alone land?

A350

According to the NTSB preliminary report, rvr was 6000 when they started the approach and then dropped to 2000 during the approach (presumably after passing the FAF).

 

[Axel]

Point of order: SA, RW and CHQ are operating under different certificates, but they are all the same company.

 

[Crossky]

According to the NTSB preliminary report, rvr was 6000 when they started the approach and then dropped to 2000 during the approach (presumably after passing the FAF).

Thank you for that official info. I take back my previous suspicion. Descending and Landing from LOC MDA mins when the RVR is 2000 could be tough. I've never tried it, and don't care to.

 

[Rouge Warrior]

According to the NTSB preliminary report, rvr was 6000 when they started the approach and then dropped to 2000 during the approach (presumably after passing the FAF).

However RAH likes constant rate descents on non-precission approaches which gives you no time to look for the runway when the weather is at or near minimums. Never did like that one, I know it's more for pax comfort but the object is to get to MDA and look for the runway not arrive at the MDA at the MAP point,try and level off and go missed all at once.

Discuss

 

[LJPilot]

Nope. The reason for the constant rate descents is for a stabilized approach, not for pax comfort. If you do not have a runway when you get there you go missed like you are on an ILS. If you are not approved per ops specs to use VNAV for an approach, you cannot couple to the VNAV, but you can dial in the verticle rate to match the pseudo glide slope. You are still restricted to the higher LNAV mins. They may not have had time to set up the FMS for the non precision approach, and they may have shot it as a normal loc approach. Either way it didnt work out. The pics were taken in clear weather minutes later. Its a reminder to all of us that if we do not like the weather at mins or at touchdown, commence your missed approach or balked landing ASAP.

 

[BeechDawg]

In light of the still outstanding Delta RFP, the company may be trying to spin the cause of this accident as some failure of the airport to ensure safe landing conditions. Certainly can't have the company looking bad when they are looking for work. Or, the company is going to smear these pilots, and blame the already decided loss of Delta flying at RAH on this accident.
Fly safe, everyone.

According to previous stuff, I believe the Delta RFP has been awarded to the carriers and it is up to them to disclose the information.

 

[CaptBiff]

How come all you experts weren't around when Comair blasted off the wrong runway and killed a bunch of people. Humm? Get a life you bunch of high school wana-be-a-pilot.coms.dorks....drink more, get laid, then get a life.

 

[Crossky]

How come all you experts weren't around when Comair blasted off the wrong runway and killed a bunch of people. Humm? Get a life you bunch of high school wana-be-a-pilot.coms.dorks....drink more, get laid, then get a life.

I think we were Biff. You know, that accident incurred a tragic large loss of life; a few of us were armchair quarterbacking but many of us were scratching out heads on how that could happen to ComAir and being silent out of respect for the DEAD.


" ~ Some day I'm gonna stand up to Biff and clock that guy ~ " Marty McFly

 

[Rouge Warrior]

How come all you experts weren't around when Comair blasted off the wrong runway and killed a bunch of people. Humm? Get a life you bunch of high school wana-be-a-pilot.coms.dorks....drink more, get laid, then get a life.

Because RAH sucks A$$, that's why dipsh!t

 

[AirBill]

I didn't know they were authorized below Cat 1 minimums...

The METAR doesn't say what the RVR was.