Dangerkitty said:
Actually I tried to get the book a few years ago but at the time it was out of print.
I understand and don't dispute what you are saying. However, de-ice boots are only there to buy the crew some time and give them some options. They should not be used to stay in icing conditions that are moderate at best.
Furthermore, while the FO was holding in icing the Captain was in the back socializing with the FA's. Not really the best use of CRM in my opinion.
Seriously dude...read the book, or at least the NTSB report, you have clearly inadvertently swallowed too much of the propoganda/urban legend that surrounds this accident. AE-Roselawn was NOT a pilot error accident, the NTSB placed the blame squarely on the FAA and the French equivilant...The pilots were not even blamed as a contributing factor to the accident.
As far as the "pilot's socilizing" that was another attempt of the frenchies to deflect blame...the "socilizing pilots" that you speak of lasted a couple minutes tops and it was the flight attendant coming up to the flight deck and the crew briefing her on what was going on...along with 1-2 minutes of small talk that is common in a routine situation like holding. The frenchies made a huge deal about it and the media circus picked up on it.
As far as your criticism of the crew for continuing to hold...you have to look at it from what the crew knew at the time...
1. ATR did not prohibit and in fact RECOMMENDED holding with flaps 15 in icing conditions.
From the NTSB report that you still haven't read yet...
"Based on the information provided by ATR at the time of the accident,
holding with flaps 15 extended at 175 KIAS provides a more desirable operating margin for stall protection than the flaps 0 configuration. Further, ATR’s 1992 All Weather Operations brochure advised flightcrews that if they recognized that they were in freezing rain, they should, “extend flaps as close to V
fe as possible.”
The danger of holding with/without flaps for an extended period of time is that the ice is going to have more areas to accrete onto for a prolonged period and the airplane is going to get heavy and stall...
This is NOT what happened. The "idiots holding with flaps" scenario is completey irrelevant in this case.
2. As far as holding in greater than moderate icing...the flight crew was clearly in "severe" icing conditions as the end results demonstrate. The problem with this is that the description of icing conditions is subjective and is dependent on the type aircraft experiencing the icing conditions.
From the AIM:
Severe. The rate of accumulation is such that deicing/anti-icing equipment fails to reduce or control the hazard. Immediate flight diversion is necessary.
They were flying into O'hare on a crap weather day, planes holding everywhere, in an airplane, allegedlly certified in flight in known icing conditions, the boots appeared to be keeping up, and they were continuously issued "rolling EFC's" and never really knew how much longer they were going to be made to hold.
I may be mistaken, but I think this crash was the catalyst to the EDC system that is now in place.
Before you throw any more stones I suggest you at least read the NTSB report...I even provided a link. This thread is about cover ups and this case is a perfect example of how different entities spin what happened in an effort to deflect blame. I think you are a victim of the spin-doctors.
Later
