Should the book be closed on AA587?

[Gorilla]

The AA upset recovery program, and the guy that wrote it, has become the sacrificial lamb of the AA bus accident. Since the crew was dead, someone else had to fall on their sword. Airbus has political power; therefore the AA program took the brunt.

ig2 summarized very well. All the program did was reinforce some very basic aerodynamic principles, namely such standard rules like "at high AOA, rudder is a very effective roll control whereas yoke will deploy spoilers, sometimes causing additional drag. A combination often works best..." etc. There was nothing radical in the program. "It's a big airplane. Fly it like one." And yes the Delta microburst was survivable with more aggressive maneuvering.

The classic definition of maneuver speed was changed that day, with Airbus massaging the rhetoric to make it look like "... OUR definition was correct all along. You U.S. idiots just don't undertstand aerodynamics and aircraft limits.

RIP Sten and crew.

 

[aa73]

I also went through "AAMP" training, and while I wasn't sure I agreed on EXCLUSIVELY using the rudder first, then backing it up with aileron, I understood what the guy was trying to say - that in past accidents, a little more rudder use might have saved the day.

After 587, suddenly he was made the sacrificial lamb, and a lot of what he taught was overexaggerated, which tends to happen when they're looking for someone to blame.

But no, I don't believe F/O Sten Molin - or any of us, for that matter - were taught "extreme rudder reversals" to get out of wake turbulence. And never did any of us, in our wildest nightmares, would actually believe that the tail could snap off at WELL BELOW maneuvering speed. Then the Air Transat A310 rudder peels off at cruise some time later... WTFO? As someone mentioned above, an airplane manufacturer has a lot more clout than a pilot group.

73

 

[Dangerkitty]

I gathered from this, they knew something was done with the rudder incorrectly. AA did also have the video of the guy showing you what to do in the event of an unusual attitude and use of the rudder. Everyone in my class laughed when they saw it. Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm sure you will.

Well then your class didn't know all that much about aerodynamics. All the AAMP program did was to instruct pilots that in some cases rudder would and should be your primary flight control. Thats it.

I guess during V1 cuts you use ailerons to correct for adverse yaw?

 

[B6Driver]

Read the previous replys on this thread and learn. I was not bashing AA, just posting information. Grow up.

 

[RP 04]

From a old Boeing manual (1993)

Avoid large alternating control inputs, especially in combination with large changes in pitch, roll, or yaw (e.g. large sideslip changes) as they may result in structural damage at ANY speed, including below VA.

 

[Dangerkitty]

AA did also have the video of the guy showing you what to do in the event of an unusual attitude and use of the rudder. Everyone in my class laughed when they saw it. Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm sure you will.

I guess you guys have never heard of top rudder.

Read and learn what B6? I guess the AAMP program was just over your head.

 

[Dangerkitty]

From a old Boeing manual (1993)

The AAMP program never told pilots to use large alternating control inputs on ANY control surface.

 

[ils2minimums]

So what about the Air TransAt A310? There were NO rudder inputs being made when the rudder departed the airplane.

I think one of the main objectives of the commentary is to point out the misconceptions about the composite material being used and the manner in which the search for defects is being conducted.

A note about the NTSB animations link in a post above. Those animations are based on a DFDR whose data was deemed ineffectual until it was reconstructed by two teams from, of all places, Airbus.

They don't even MENTION the filter on the DFDR in this program, even though the NTSB Hearing in October, 2002 began with the words of Bob Benzon himself: "Due to the filter that augmented the readout data from the DFDR, we will never know exactly what the flight controls on AA 587 did on november 12, 2001" or words to that effect. He then explained that, the DFDR normally records 60 data points per second. The filter installed--which was ordered by the FAA to be de-activated years prior, but was not--filtered out 59 of these datapoints, so that only one data reading per second was sent to the cockpit instruments.

In order, however, to get a good read on the rudder, the filtered-out data points had to be put back in. Two models were made of this data to re-introduce this...and, the project team called in to perform BOTH models?

Airbus.

 

[B6Driver]

ils2minimums,
Your attempting to go over just what happened with AA587 and other A300 crashed and your fellow AA buddy danderkitty wishes to just roll around in the mud and sling arrows at all the so called aa bashers. That was never my intention on this thread.

 

[B6Driver]

dangerkitty,
much of my time is in heavy acft and yours? Oh never mind, I can read for myself. Run along now son.

 

[Dangerkitty]

dangerkitty,
much of my time is in heavy acft and yours? Oh never mind, I can read for myself. Run along now son.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. Your problem is that you can't even address what I said so you resort to plain insults.

Just because you have flown a 747 and I haven't doesn't mean that you are more experienced than I am. Using your logic I guess that since TWA flew heavies and Southwest never has then TWA must be the better airline.

Well Southwest has a $13 billion dollar market cap. What about TWA?

Run along now old fart. Looks like you have no clue as to what you are talking about.

 

[Dangerkitty]

ils2minimums,
Your attempting to go over just what happened with AA587 and other A300 crashed and your fellow AA buddy danderkitty wishes to just roll around in the mud and sling arrows at all the so called aa bashers. That was never my intention on this thread.

No, I just pointed out how you did and continue to make a complete and total fool of yourself. If you disagree with some of the AAMP program, fine. (I am sure you watched the whole program) However for you to state that you and your whole TWA class laughed at the program means you really dont have much of an education in high performance jet aerodynamics.

Then you imply that you must know more than me because you have flown two heavies and I haven't.

Why dont we compare W2's instead. Up to the challenge?

 

[B6Driver]

"Why dont we compare W2's instead. Up to the challenge?" Pea brain.......
As I said B4, run along son.

 

[mdf]

I think you guys are missing the point

The guy who was flying is not around to defend himself. This whole thing smells bad to me. Things just don't add up, and it could have been any one of us. Under the situation it should not be acceptable that a rudder could come off in the first place. I hope someone gets to the bottom of this thing. I feel for the guy, and his family.

 

[AA717driver]

mdf--The whole point is that no one will ever get to the bottom of it. The crew, the plane and the report has been buried by the NTSB and FAA.

They had an airplane come apart under them in a clear blue sky. It just happened at exactly the wrong time in history. TC