Should the book be closed on AA587?

[B6Driver]

Some day you're going to have to grow up and act like a big boy but I see thats not today. What a surprise.

 

[IAHERJ]

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 96
Civ/Mil: civilian
A/C Flown: 737, MD-80, 727, BE1900D
Ratings: ATP, FE, CFI(I), MEI
Curr Position: 737 F/O
Total Time: +-9700
Posts: 96

Should the book be closed on AA587?
Yes, I think it should.

IAHERJ

 

[BigMotorToter]

B6Driver is correct. I received the same bulletin. I also saw the video that the AA training dept. made us watch. It was part of the initial transformation to the AA recurent sylabus from our TWA sylabus. I recall the narator was some ex-fighter pilot named "Ace" or something like that. I'm not making that up either. Anyway, (and by the way, I brought this topic up a year or so ago on this forum, but with a little more emotion which I am over with) as we watched the video, we almost couldn't believe what we were hearing. "Ace" was telling us to use the rudder aggresively if you find yourself in an upset condition. After the video was over, the instructor knew we had a lot of comments, of which he said every class he had had the same reaction, and that our instructors were in the process of talking with the AA training dept. in Dallas to discuss this video and what we felt were VERY WRONG procedures being taught. In his words, and you have to remmember the poisoness
environment at the time, the AA training dept. didn't want to listen to a thing we had to say. And that we were to "continue playing the video".

Shortley after the crash, and word was leaking out about the F/O and the rudder, the video mysterioulsy disapeared and was no longer being played in ground school.

As I recall, and I may be wrong, but I thought that the blame for the crash was shared betweeen Airbus and AA, but I am not sure.

I think I recall that this particullar F/O had in his training record a note from a previous training event by an instructor saying he was too aggresive with the rudder in the 727. I think I remember that being in the final NTSB report when they interviewed the instructor.

So did he aggressively move the rudder because he saw the video?

Was he predisposed to react in that matter regardless of the video?

Did he even move the rudder aggressively in the first place?

I think the rudder peddals move when the rudder moves. So if wake turb. moved the rudder, the peddals would move also, therefore you really can't tell if the pilot was aggressively moving the pedals or not.

 

[igneousy2]

I went through AA's upset recovery training pre-AA587. The reason they started teaching the way they did was because there have been several crashes historically that the pilots should have been able to recover had they been more aggresive on the flight controls.

I remember watching a whole video demonstrating how much energy Delta in DFW (microburst) had when it went into the water tanks. The video theorized that had the crew pitched up more aggresively they would have been able to climb...therefore...pitch to just under the shaker during a microburst encounter.

Colorado Springs 737 with uncommanded roll should have been recoverable. During sim we were demonstrated cross-over AOA. below this speed the rudder is more effective than the Ailerons, above it, the Ailerons are more effective...therefore, rudder problems speed up, Aileron problems, slow down.

As part of the sim we were given a severe wake encounter in which the roll rate was such was that the aircraft rolled to just over 90 degrees. We were taught about "top rudder".

At no time during the training did we ever receive instruction that would lead to the kind of rudder deflections that occured on AA587.

It has never sat well with me that the rudder snapped off the airplane. At such a slow airspeed (second segment climb) the rudder should be able to withstand a rudder reversal or two. (<---I know certification requirements don't require it, I am saying certification requirements SHOULD require it.)

Later

 

[CitationLover]

As part of the sim we were given a severe wake encounter in which the roll rate was such was that the aircraft rolled to just over 90 degrees. We were taught about "top rudder".

wasn't AA 587 only at about 25deg of bank?


http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2001/AA587/board_mtg_anim.htm

 

[Gorilla]

The AA upset recovery program, and the guy that wrote it, has become the sacrificial lamb of the AA bus accident. Since the crew was dead, someone else had to fall on their sword. Airbus has political power; therefore the AA program took the brunt.

ig2 summarized very well. All the program did was reinforce some very basic aerodynamic principles, namely such standard rules like "at high AOA, rudder is a very effective roll control whereas yoke will deploy spoilers, sometimes causing additional drag. A combination often works best..." etc. There was nothing radical in the program. "It's a big airplane. Fly it like one." And yes the Delta microburst was survivable with more aggressive maneuvering.

The classic definition of maneuver speed was changed that day, with Airbus massaging the rhetoric to make it look like "... OUR definition was correct all along. You U.S. idiots just don't undertstand aerodynamics and aircraft limits.

RIP Sten and crew.

 

[aa73]

I also went through "AAMP" training, and while I wasn't sure I agreed on EXCLUSIVELY using the rudder first, then backing it up with aileron, I understood what the guy was trying to say - that in past accidents, a little more rudder use might have saved the day.

After 587, suddenly he was made the sacrificial lamb, and a lot of what he taught was overexaggerated, which tends to happen when they're looking for someone to blame.

But no, I don't believe F/O Sten Molin - or any of us, for that matter - were taught "extreme rudder reversals" to get out of wake turbulence. And never did any of us, in our wildest nightmares, would actually believe that the tail could snap off at WELL BELOW maneuvering speed. Then the Air Transat A310 rudder peels off at cruise some time later... WTFO? As someone mentioned above, an airplane manufacturer has a lot more clout than a pilot group.

73

 

[Dangerkitty]

I gathered from this, they knew something was done with the rudder incorrectly. AA did also have the video of the guy showing you what to do in the event of an unusual attitude and use of the rudder. Everyone in my class laughed when they saw it. Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm sure you will.

Well then your class didn't know all that much about aerodynamics. All the AAMP program did was to instruct pilots that in some cases rudder would and should be your primary flight control. Thats it.

I guess during V1 cuts you use ailerons to correct for adverse yaw?

 

[B6Driver]

Read the previous replys on this thread and learn. I was not bashing AA, just posting information. Grow up.

 

[RP 04]

From a old Boeing manual (1993)

Avoid large alternating control inputs, especially in combination with large changes in pitch, roll, or yaw (e.g. large sideslip changes) as they may result in structural damage at ANY speed, including below VA.